ESPN.com: Kirk Cousins contract talks with Redskins on positive track

[SkinssRvA]

19 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Not sure why this is so difficult - it has no impact on the timing. Of course it has an impact on the numbers and the final contract. I have stated so numerous times including the comment you quoted.

You said timing and process.  So I was literally trying to find out what you meant.  Saying "timing" could mean anything.  We've already had one off season now where the "timing" was off and a deal didn't get done, hence franchise tag number two.  So I guess forgive me for not understanding what you meant by timing.  did you mean something different?

 

And leverage--again--has already impacted the process twice now (two franchise tags) which is why we've never seen that done before.  Deadlines force deals, I guess....unless the FO isn't willing to pay up for a second off season in a row.  At which point deadlines don't do anything but cause frustration for fans.  

 

At this point I'm not arguing anything about the final numbers of the contract, frankly I don't care what they are it's not my money.  I'm saying it makes almost no sense for Kirk to sign a deal before the deadline..yet again.  In fact, if he waits until after the carr and stafford extensions he will get paid MORE than what he thinks his market value is.  Everything is trending up for QBs and all Kirk has to do is play decent football (which he has surpassed the past two seasons) and he'll get paid.  

 

Edit: just for the record I want Kirk here-I want him to sign.  I hope he wants to be here and I hope the front office wants him here. But if I remove myself from the fandom and bias, it makes very little sense for Kirk to sign a LTD with us unless he truly truly truly truly truly wants to be a Redskin.  If he signs with us at this point, it means he wants to be here even if we do get taken to the bank.   

[goskins10]

3 minutes ago, SkinssRvA said:

You said timing and process.  So I was literally trying to find out what you meant.  Saying "timing" could mean anything.  We've already had one off season now where the "timing" was off and a deal didn't get done, hence franchise tag number two.  So I guess forgive me for not understanding what you meant by timing.  did you mean something different?

 

And leverage--again--has already impacted the process twice now (two franchise tags) which is why we've never seen that done before.  Deadlines force deals, I guess....unless the FO isn't willing to pay up for a second off season in a row.  At which point deadlines don't do anything but cause frustration for fans.  

 

At this point I'm not arguing anything about the final numbers of the contract, frankly I don't care what they are it's not my money.  I'm saying it makes almost no sense for Kirk to sign a deal before the deadline..yet again.  In fact, if he waits until after the carr and stafford extensions he will get paid MORE than what he thinks his market value is.  Everything is trending up for QBs and all Kirk has to do is play decent football (which he has surpassed the past two seasons) and he'll get paid.  

 

I was addressing the complaints that the deal is not already done - it was in the initial post. What you responded to was a response to a response. There is no incentive for either side to get a deal done much if any before the deadline. That's the process - which is not going to change because of a 2nd or even 3rd tag or if he is QB or any other position.

[Gregpeck99]

Hmmm .... interesting stuff about Suds ... from out of left field.

 

Preparing for the inevitable.

[Butters20]

I can't imagine Suds every being starter.

 

I feel if Kirk doesn't re-sign, we retain McCoy and draft a 1st rounder in 2018

 

[theTruthTeller]

25 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

...

Since people are not interested in the Von Miller - how about Drew Brees - QB and tagged twice. He actually won a court case that meant if NO gave him the tag in 2013 it would actually be his 3rd meaning the tag that NO gave him in 2012 was in fact his 2nd - it was of course since SD had tagged him in 2005. They got a deal done July 13th, 3 days before the deadline.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a4cacf/article/drew-brees-wins-franchisetag-grievance-vs-nfl-saints

 

 

Brees at the 2013 Pro Bowl

On July 13, the Saints and Brees agreed to a 5-year, $100 million contract. The contract had the largest amount of guaranteed money in NFL history, at $60 million. $40 million of the contract was paid the first year.^[77]

 

The ruling on Brees's tag status didn't come out until July 4, so of course it came down to the last week before the signing deadline.  Prior to that time, the Saints were using the tag as leverage and when the ruling came out that leverage was gone.  So, if the second tag wasn't working as leverage against Brees, you can imagine how poorly it works against Kirk - it's a pretty good deal for him to get $24M guaranteed for one year with effectively unfettered FA the following year, at the peak of his career. Until the Skins make an offer that is better than the second tag, they're negotiating against themselves, not with Kirk.

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said:

The ruling on Brees's tag status didn't come out until July 4, so of course it came down to the last week before the signing deadline.  Prior to that time, the Saints were using the tag as leverage and when the ruling came out that leverage was gone.  So, if the second tag wasn't working as leverage against Brees, you can imagine how poorly it works against Kirk - it's a pretty good deal for him to get $24M guaranteed for one year with effectively unfettered FA the following year, at the peak of his career. Until the Skins make an offer that is better than the second tag, they're negotiating against themselves, not with Kirk.

 

So what's the excuse for the other 5 Exclusive Franchise tag players being signed at or on the deadline? I listed them once but people would rather be pissed off than to look at the facts and the process. Fair enough. Carry on. I try this once every couple weeks to a month but people are hell bent on blaming someone - many are blaming the Redskins while others are blaming Kirk and his team. It has to be someone's fault because "I want it done now!"

 

The fact is - no matter what excuses people want to make that this is somehow different in terms of process - it's not and if they do come to agreement the deal will happen within the last week, and probably the very last day possible, not before. And the only thing to blame is the NFL calendar. If they set the date at June 15th the deals would get done there if they are getting done.

 

Now final numbers and contact structure? That is different. Kirk has historic level leverage - although again Brees had basically that same leverage. So it's not unheard of but it is certainly not common. But the timing of the process in terms of the deal getting done is not unique at all.

[CTskin]

25 minutes ago, Butters20 said:

I can't imagine Suds ever being starter.

 

I feel if Kirk doesn't re-sign, we retain McCoy and draft a 1st rounder in 2018

 

At one point we couldn't imagine Kirk ever being a starter...

[theTruthTeller]

22 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

So what's the excuse for the other 5 Exclusive Franchise tag players being signed at or on the deadline? I listed them once but people would rather be pissed off than to look at the facts and the process. Fair enough. Carry on. I try this once every couple weeks to a month but people are hell bent on blaming someone - many are blaming the Redskins while others are blaming Kirk and his team. It has to be someone's fault because "I want it done now!"

...

I'm neither surprised or angry.  The mistake was made last year - everything that has happened this year was entirely predictable.  But tell me this - if you were Kirk, and you were looking at this totally objectively, what would the Skins need to offer that was a better deal than getting $24M guaranteed for 2017 and FA (with no required compensation from the signing team) in 2018?  Keep in mind that this is going to be your one and only big bucks LTD in all likelihood.

[goskins10]

Just now, theTruthTeller said:

I'm neither surprised or angry.  The mistake that was made last year - everything that has happened this year was entirely predictable.  But tell me this - if you were Kirk, and you were looking at this totally objectively, what would the Skins need to offer that was a better deal than getting $24M guaranteed for 2017 and FA (with no required compensation from the signing team) in 2018?  Keep in mind that this is going to be your one and only big bucks LTD in all likelihood.

 

This is a completely different topic of which I have said he has great leverage. Need to separate leverage in the negotiations vs. the timing of a deal getting done. I also disagree there was a mistake made last year. But again that is a completely different topic.

 

But I will answer the question you asked - I would expect him to be the highest paid QB in the NFL since the franchise tag this year is about what Luck is making on average - Luck being the highest paid QB right now. That is why since the end of the season I have said the Redskins need to offer something close to Luck's deal. I would think 5/yrs - $125M with about $50M fully guaranteed and another $35M to $40M in injury guarantees would do it (again I have been saying this will be the deal since then end of the season - a bit before actually). And I believe they will pay him that. It sounds like a lot of money, and it is. But in NFL terms it will only be big money for a year or two.

 

If he walks away from that deal then it's on him. It's one thing to have leverage and use it to your advantage. It's another thing to have to ridiculous expectations and ultimately not cash in on that leverage it. You can say he can get more money the next year but each year he does that increases his risk of injury and ultimately getting nothing. He wants a LTD, just at a fair price. I personally do not think he is unrealistic or has ridiculous expectations. I think he signs a reasonable deal considering the QB market.

 

If the Redskins try to low ball him and call his bluff playing on the tag they will lose. But since that in essence would only save them somewhere between $6M and $12M over 3 years, it makes no sense to stand firm on some lower offer of say $21M/5yrs with $35M fully guaranteed and another $20M in injury guarantees. That's probably the deal they have on the table right now. But they will come up - just like Denver did. At the last minute Denver added $39M in guaranteed money to get the deal done. The Brees contract set a record then for highest player salary ever. It's the nature of the beast. Contracts get higher every year.

 

That's why I firmly believe a deal gets done for something close to what I said above.

 

There is one and only one reason to get a deal done sooner - and it only benefits the team. If they think Derek Carr is going to get a deal sooner and they believe it's going to big - like Luck money or more - the team may try to get Kirk to sign before so they set the market not Carr's deal. However, as I said before - if I am Kirk's agent I do not let him sign any deal before the last day. That's when he will get the Redskins best offer.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Said it a billion times before: if your mindset is that there's no legit reason why Cousins hasn't been signed yet you're gonna find all sorts of goofy explanations. Even with Kirk saying on the record that it makes zero sense to sign before the deadline we still have this brain dead debate about how Snyder's a terrible owner, how Williams is using Sudfeld (!!) as some sort of leveraging tool in the press, how the deal should have been done by now to calm everyone down (yeah, that's what all this is about--Allen, Snyder and Cousins have been trying to figure out the best way to calm people down lol)...

 

I have no idea how much reality you absolutely must ignore to anchor down so strongly on some of these positions. But it can't be healthy.

[Cliffmark1]

59 minutes ago, CTskin said:

At one point we couldn't imagine Kirk ever being a starter...

Not true. Many predicted it from day one. It is one of the reasons the rg3 crowd was so upset about drafting another qb.  It was because that qb was widely considered a steal and potential starter not a project. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, Butters20 said:

I can't imagine Suds every being starter.

 

I feel if Kirk doesn't re-sign, we retain McCoy and draft a 1st rounder in 2018

 

 

Many couldn't picture Cousins ever being a starter and now we're on the verge of renting him for $44M over two years. 

[theTruthTeller]

18 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

...

But I will answer the question you asked - I would expect him to be the highest paid QB in the NFL since the franchise tag this year is about what Luck is making on average - Luck being the highest paid QB right now. That is why since the end of the season I have said the Redskins need to offer something close to Luck's deal. I would think 5/yrs - $125M with about $50M fully guaranteed and another $35M to $40M in injury guarantees would do it (again I have been saying this will be the deal since then end of the season - a bit before actually). And I believe they will pay him that. It sounds like a lot of money, and it is. But in NFL terms it will only be big money for a year or two.

...

I think your money is about right, maybe a little higher than necessary, but there is no chance that $50M in guarantees works if I am his agent.  He's got $24M in guarantees in his pocket already for one year, and he'll get another $50M+ guarantee if he signs a FA contract next year.  He can protect himself from injury, somewhat, by buying an insurance policy against career ending injury -  given the amount of money at stake, I don't think that would be a big deal.  His biggest risk is that the Skins take a step back in 2017.  I think if the Skins offered that deal with $75M guaranteed, or if the injury guarantees convert to fully guaranteed in 2018, he'd have a deal.

4 minutes ago, Cliffmark1 said:

Not true. Many predicted it from day one. It is one of the reasons the rg3 crowd was so upset about drafting another qb.  It was because that qb was widely considered a steal and potential starter not a project. 

It was widely thought on ES that teams would be crawling over one another to trade two #1s for Kirk.

[goskins10]

Just now, theTruthTeller said:

I think your money is about right, maybe a little higher than necessary, but there is no chance that $50M in guarantees works if I am his agent.  He's got $24M in guarantees in his pocket already for one year, and he'll get another $50M+ guarantee if he signs a FA contract next year.  He can protect himself from injury, somewhat, by buying an insurance policy against career ending injury -  given the amount of money at stake, I don't think that would be a big deal.  His biggest risk is that the Skins take a step back in 2017.  I think if the Skins offered that deal with $75M guaranteed, or if the injury guarantees convert to fully guaranteed in 2018, he'd have a deal.

 

You misread it I think. I said $50M fully guaranteed, with another $35M to $40M in injury guarantees. So that's actually closer to $85M to $90M in total guarantees. Luck's contract was $47M fully guaranteed at signing. The rest were injury guarantees in the form of roster bonuses.

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 minutes ago, Cliffmark1 said:

Not true. Many predicted it from day one. It is one of the reasons the rg3 crowd was so upset about drafting another qb.  It was because that qb was widely considered a steal and potential starter not a project. 

 

What? lol 

 

98% of the argument against drafting Cousins was that fans thought it was a wasted draft pick since the team mortgaged so much on a QB already in the draft...it had ZERO to do with being upset that Cousins was a "potential starter". Fans were bothered that a 4th round pick was used on a guy who, if things panned out, would never see the field. That's why the running rhetoric at the time, both among fans and definitely in the media, was that Shanahan must be thinking of trading Cousins down the road to recoup some picks. It's also why a huge majority of fans here said Cousins flushed his trade value down the toilet with his performance at the end of the 2013 season.

 

 

[theTruthTeller]

14 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

You misread it I think. I said $50M fully guaranteed, with another $35M to $40M in injury guarantees. So that's actually closer to $85M to $90M in total guarantees. Luck's contract was $47M fully guaranteed at signing. The rest were injury guarantees in the form of roster bonuses.

 

 

I read it fine.  Luck's contract had $47M fully guaranteed at signing; however, on the 5th day of the 2017 League Year, another $25M vests as fully guaranteed (2017 and 2018 salaries and roster bonuses).

The big difference is that Kirk has $24M already guaranteed and will undoubtedly get another $50M if he signs a FA in 2018. So, signing a contract with $50M guaranteed over 5 years isn't a big motivation.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

53 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

Said it a billion times before: if your mindset is that there's no legit reason why Cousins hasn't been signed yet you're gonna find all sorts of goofy explanations. Even with Kirk saying on the record that it makes zero sense to sign before the deadline we still have this brain dead debate about how Snyder's a terrible owner, how Williams is using Sudfeld (!!) as some sort of leveraging tool in the press, how the deal should have been done by now to calm everyone down (yeah, that's what all this is about--Allen, Snyder and Cousins have been trying to figure out the best way to calm people down lol)...

 

I have no idea how much reality you absolutely must ignore to anchor down so strongly on some of these positions. But it can't be healthy.

 

The deal should have been done by now because he's our QB and should be treated as such.  A deal should have been struck as soon as it was possible to do so rather than applying a franchise tag and doing this song and dance for several months.  Franchise QB's historically don't go through this crap because their teams do whatever they can to lock them up before it's even much of a conversation. 

 

At this point, I really don't think it makes much of a difference if it gets done today or July 17th.  This should have been done prior to the tag deadline.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

The deal should have been done by now because he's our QB and should be treated as such.  A deal should have been struck as soon as it was possible to do so rather than applying a franchise tag and doing this song and dance for several months.  Franchise QB's historically don't go through this crap because their teams do whatever they can to lock them up before it's even much of a conversation. 

 

At this point, I really don't think it makes much of a difference if it gets done today or July 17th.  This should have been done prior to the tag deadline.

 

If Cousins and the Redskins don't care that it hasn't been done already, why would we?

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, theTruthTeller said:

I read it fine.  Luck's contract had $47M fully guaranteed at signing; however, on the 5th day of the 2017 League Year, another $25M vests as fully guaranteed (2017 and 2018 salaries and roster bonuses).

The big difference is that Kirk has $24M already guaranteed and will undoubtedly get another $50M if he signs a FA in 2018. So, signing a contract with $50M guaranteed over 5 years isn't a big motivation.  

 

If you are seeing it as $50M over 5 yrs then you are reading it incorrectly. I said it would be similar to Andrew Luck's contract. That means there would be similar monies guaranteed once the next year rolls over and then additional guarantees in the way of roster bonuses. It will end up being more like $80M over the first 3 yrs. That means he can get now what he would get next year, but guaranteed now. Sorry I didn't outline the entire contract year by year but I thought since I said it would be similar to Luck's contract that would suffice.

 

If you are suggesting that the only thing he signs is $80M to $90M fully guaranteed at signing that will not happen. That's not a realistic expectation.

 

[goskins10]

12 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

The deal should have been done by now because he's our QB and should be treated as such.  A deal should have been struck as soon as it was possible to do so rather than applying a franchise tag and doing this song and dance for several months.  Franchise QB's historically don't go through this crap because their teams do whatever they can to lock them up before it's even much of a conversation. 

 

At this point, I really don't think it makes much of a difference if it gets done today or July 17th.  This should have been done prior to the tag deadline.

 

Mike Vick (2011), Peyton Manning (2011) and Drew Brees (2005, 2012) would tend to disagree. I find it very interesting that the team and Kirk Cousins are totally Ok with this process playing out but the fans are all kinds of pissed.

[theTruthTeller]

3 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

...

If you are suggesting that the only thing he signs is $80M to $90M fully guaranteed at signing that will not happen. That's not a realistic expectation.

 

This is what I said:  "I think if the Skins offered that deal with $75M guaranteed, or if the injury guarantees convert to fully guaranteed in 2018, he'd have a deal."

 

And it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Skins offered $75M guaranteed and reduced the average cap hit.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

10 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

If Cousins and the Redskins don't care that it hasn't been done already, why would we?

That's a huge assumption that both sides don't care.  I'm pretty sure both do care - a lot, however Kirk has less reason to care because he stands to make out well no matter what happens.

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, theTruthTeller said:

This is what I said:  "I think if the Skins offered that deal with $75M guaranteed, or if the injury guarantees convert to fully guaranteed in 2018, he'd have a deal."

 

And it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Skins offered $75M guaranteed and reduced the average cap hit.

 

I guess what confused me is that pretty much what I said - So we are violently agreeing.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

15 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That's a huge assumption that both sides don't care.  I'm pretty sure both do care - a lot, however Kirk has less reason to care because he stands to make out well no matter what happens.

 

How? lol...both are ON RECORD as basically saying they dont give a **** about the contract being finalized before now.

 

I think it's more of a huge assumption to think they feel the way fans imagine them feeling.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

How? lol...both are ON RECORD as basically saying they dont give a **** about the contract being finalized before now.

 

I think it's more of a huge assumption to think they feel the way fans imagine them feeling.

 

...and what about Kirk leads you to believe that he would ever say anything remotely negative about stuff like this on the record? 

 

....and why would the Redskins come out and admit 'Yeah, we messed up'?

 

I don't expect anything but the status quo on the record from both parties.