Destino Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 9 minutes ago, twa said: She put them in position to die....willingly it seems. Not much different than intentionally driving off a cliff with them. I do think burglary charges are excessive If she said "hey guys want to drive off a cliff with me" and they all piled in, it's suicide. If they asked her to drive them to a cliff do they could jump off, it's still not murder. This is murder because the powers that be wanted to uncomplicated crime scenes and pin all the bad things on any surviving bad people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 7 minutes ago, Destino said: If she said "hey guys want to drive off a cliff with me" and they all piled in, it's suicide. If they asked her to drive them to a cliff do they could jump off, it's still not murder. This is murder because the powers that be wanted to uncomplicated crime scenes and pin all the bad things on any surviving bad people. Seems reasonable if your goal is to reduce such things, as is accessory charges.if they had killed the homeowner. If I say I want to jump off this cliff and you push me (and I die) it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Just now, twa said: If I say I want to jump off this cliff and you push me it is? That depends on how much money I have to spend on my defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEANDWARF Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 minute ago, TryTheBeal! said: Just a little "Devils advocate". A viewpoint wherein alternate methods of dealing with a B&E are considered. Methods that don't leave a pile of corpses in the kitchen. The methods that many an Iraqi citizen likely might've considered around 2005 or so. See what I'm saying? Life isn't a movie and goofballs teenagers with a kitchen knife will surely scatter when presented with overwhelmingly lethal force. Well, I can understand that. But looking for an alternative methods in the matter of seconds is very difficult even for the more experience individual. In this situation, we are talking about teenagers and a young adult of only 23 years of age. For me personally, if I saw a person having a gun and I am only holding a knife, I would have said "you win" and ran, end of story. But then again I'm 55. Words were exchanged, feelings may have been hurt and this may have lead to tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Bailey Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 16 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: Just a little "Devils advocate". A viewpoint wherein alternate methods of dealing with a B&E are considered. Methods that don't leave a pile of corpses in the kitchen. The methods that many an Iraqi citizen likely might've considered around 2005 or so. See what I'm saying? Life isn't a movie and goofballs teenagers with a kitchen knife will surely scatter when presented with overwhelmingly lethal force. I'm sure would feel the same were your flesh and blood at risk right? Sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 14 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: See what I'm saying? Life isn't a movie and goofballs teenagers with a kitchen knife will surely scatter when presented with overwhelmingly lethal force. Yeah, I remember a guy whose house got broken into by a bunch of goofballs teenagers and he threatened them with a machete and they just scattered....after they shot him. #makemydaylaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 7 minutes ago, Chump Bailey said: I'm sure would feel the same were your flesh and blood at risk right? Sure... Am I to understand that you believe these kids were "given a chance" to flee and decided to take on the armed father & son instead? Cause there's no way that happened. 4 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said: Yeah, I remember a guy whose house got broken into by a bunch of goofballs teenagers and he threatened them with a machete and they just scattered....after they shot him. #makemydaylaw That was in the middle of the night with a newborn and a woman in the house. This was a daylight B&E with two armed grown men in the house. It's totally different and we all know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I hope no one tries to break into my place. Plus I am moving to Texas. Justifiable homicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExoDus84 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 In the absence of any more information, it seems justified. Three dudes break into your pad, wearing masks, and armed...you probably do what you feel like you have to do. I suppose it would be different if they weren't masked, and weren't armed, but in this case they were. If I caught three people breaking into my place, masked and armed, I'd have my pistol at the ready. I'd try to resolve it without killing, but who knows if the robbers made a move toward the homeowner or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Gamebreaker said: The three teens who went in got what they deserved. The teen who was a getaway driver shouldn't be charged with murder is all I'm saying. Agreed. It's a ridiculous stretch to charge a getaway driver with murder because her accomplices got killed in the act of committing an armed home invasion. There has to be some sort of accessory to burglary charge that is appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 13 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Agreed. It's a ridiculous stretch to charge a getaway driver with murder because her accomplices got killed in the act of committing an armed home invasion. There has to be some sort of accessory to burglary charge that is appropriate. Well I'm sure she is considered a accessory to murder(which is called second degree murder in OK) Pretty straightforward Quote Accessory to Murder Under Oklahoma's criminal law there are two types of parties that can be held liable for a crime: principals and accessories. Think about it like this, a principal can be anyone who either commits the crime or aids and abets in its commission (even if they are not present when the crime is committed), and accessories are people who conceal or aid a principal after the crime is committed so that the principal can escape or avoid punishment. The accessory must have had knowledge that the principal committed a felony. http://statelaws.findlaw.com/oklahoma-law/oklahoma-second-degree-murder.html Don't put people in position to be killed and you avoid that nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Why am I Mr. Pink? Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 27 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Agreed. It's a ridiculous stretch to charge a getaway driver with murder because her accomplices got killed in the act of committing an armed home invasion. There has to be some sort of accessory to burglary charge that is appropriate. Its a pretty good 1st year law school essay question bc common sense says it is a ridiculous stretch to charge a getaway driver when her own ppl got killed but any death during the commission of certain felonies (armed robbery being one), even the felons themselves, means that everyone involved is charged with murder. Except maybe accomplice/conspiracy after the fact ... been a long time. Classic example - guys goes into store with fake gun, store clerk drops dead of heart attack ... guy with fake gun gets charged w felony murder even though he didnt intend to do death or bodily harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterPinstripe Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said: Just a little "Devils advocate". A viewpoint wherein alternate methods of dealing with a B&E are considered. Methods that don't leave a pile of corpses in the kitchen. The methods that many an Iraqi citizen likely might've considered around 2005 or so. See what I'm saying? Life isn't a movie and goofballs teenagers with a kitchen knife will surely scatter when presented with overwhelmingly lethal force. Exactly, life isnt a movie. MAYBE those "goofball" teenagers will scatter, or maybe they stick me with a knife and I die and game over and my family is left without a father. They break into my house with a weapon and threaten my life or my families life my responsibility is to protect my family and I am taking literally no chances. Not to protect the criminals with a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I'm pretty darn liberal and very much pro gun control, but (without reading the article) this seems exactly the right purpose for a firearm. They protected their house and family. The family did not know what degree of threat the invaders posed. Was their purpose theft, rape, murder? I hate that there is a loss of life, but I can't really fault the person defending their home/family. Now, if someone can dredge up some facts from the case that I don't know about (again, very possible since I haven't read the article) I can be convinced to look at it otherwise, but for the moment it's hard for me to fault a homeowner who responded to invaders especially ones brandishing a deadly a weapon... and yes, a knife is a deadly weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, twa said: She put them in position to die....willingly it seems. Not much different than intentionally driving off a cliff with them. I do think burglary charges are excessive This doesn't meet the standard of murder. By law, there was no murder in this situation. The homeowner's son was defending himself, he didn't murder the three teens. If he pulled the trigger and it isn't considered murder, someone who was an associate of the dead criminals can't be found guilty of murder. They are just charges by some overly aggressive prosecutor, they will be used as leverage and then eventually dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmarydu Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 hours ago, twa said: Why? He obviously brought them to be killed. Accessory to burglary is what she should be charged with, no more, no less...do 180 days, pay a ****load in fines, some CS. Seeing her friends/accomplices dead should fix any thought of doing it again. Over-prosecution gets my goat too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said: That was in the middle of the night with a newborn and a woman in the house. This was a daylight B&E with two armed grown men in the house. It's totally different and we all know that. This was during the day? Hmm, kinda changes my thoughts on it. Typically B&E during the day happen because the criminal thinks you're at work and not at home. Dumb criminals, because they should've realized someone was home, but I doubt they meant to encounter the homeowner. I automatically assumed, since it seemed as if the homeowner's son was defending himself, that this occurred at night and the criminals were expecting resistance. If it came out in an investigation that the three dead teens were all trying to flee while shot, it wouldn't surprise me at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said: This doesn't meet the standard of murder. By law, there was no murder in this situation. The homeowner's son was defending himself, he didn't murder the three teens. If he pulled the trigger and it isn't considered murder, someone who was an associate of the dead criminals can't be found guilty of murder. They are just charges by some overly aggressive prosecutor, they will be used as leverage and then eventually dropped. By law it is justifiable homicide by the resident and and second degree murder (3 counts) by the accessory to a armed felony w/loss of life. The justified need to kill(legal murder) does not excuse putting people into that position and the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 The article said there was an exchange of words before the son opened fire on them. That indicates he didn't just blast away at them as soon as they walked in his door. I think this will be a straightforward justified homicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, twa said: Well I'm sure she is considered a accessory to murder(which is called second degree murder in OK) Pretty straightforward Don't put people in position to be killed and you avoid that nonsense. She is not an accessory to murder. Using your example, she didn't actually shoot anyone so being the principle is out. She did not knowingly aid the homeowner's son in shooting them, so "aids and abets in its commission" is out. And she isn't an accessory because she didn't try to conceal evidence or aid the principal(homeowner's son) AFTER the crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 minute ago, twa said: By law it is justifiable homicide by the resident and and second degree murder (3 counts) by the accessory to a armed felony w/loss of life. The justified need to kill(legal murder) does not excuse putting people into that position and the result. Feels like charging her with second degree murder absolves the slain of responsibility for getting themselves killed. At any rate, we need a lot more detail than the article gives about her involvement in the crime before we can determine her culpability. I think it matters whose idea this thing was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Why am I Mr. Pink? Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Felony Murder: Taking the life of a human during the commission (or attempted commission) of one of the following crimes: murder, shooting a firearm with the intent to kill, intentionally discharging a firearm into a building, forcible rape, robbery with a dangerous weapon, kidnapping, escape from lawful custody, first-degree burglary, first-degree arson, unlawful distribution of a controlled dangerous substance, or trafficking in illegal drugs. An offender commits first-degree murder if he, or any other person kills a human as a result of the commission (or attempted commission) of the crimes listed above. Oklahomas Felony Murder statute. It is 1st degree murder and punishable by death. Emphasis is original and not mine. Spirit of the Felony Murder rule is that a criminal should be held accountable for any death that comes as a result of the felony. example - guy is robbing cashier with gun, stock boy in back sees it and fires a shot gun but misses the criminal and kills the cashier. Criminal is charged with 1st degree Felony Murder. Stock boy fires gun, misses criminal and cashier, goes through window and kills pedestrian = criminal charged with Felony Murder. Stock boy shoots gun, sound causes a customer using bathroom and doesnt even know store is being robbed to die of heart attack = criminal charged w Felony Murder. edit - link http://statelaws.findlaw.com/oklahoma-law/oklahoma-first-degree-murder.html Im sure Felony Murder will be dropped and she will plea out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I bet nobody else tries to burgle this house. This is an open carry gun owner's wet dream. Seriously though. You don't break into a house. Not because you might get caught, because you might die. These young men lost their way somewhere. Somebody failed to teach them right from wrong and it cost them their lives, apparently justifiably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 58 minutes ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said: Classic example - guys goes into store with fake gun, store clerk drops dead of heart attack ... guy with fake gun gets charged w felony murder even though he didnt intend to do death or bodily harm. Yeah, but in this case, a more appropriate example is guy goes into a store with fake gun, store clerk pulls out a shotgun and blows him away.....guy waiting in the car gets charged with murder. In your scenario the innocent victim is dead. In this scenario, the guilty culprit is dead. I guess what I'm trying to say is the store clerk didn't commit murder, by law, and therefore the driver isn't guilty of murder either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Feels like charging her with second degree murder absolves the slain of responsibility for getting themselves killed. At any rate, we need a lot more detail than the article gives about her involvement in the crime before we can determine her culpability. I think it matters whose idea this thing was. They are not absolved (just obviously not worth charging them ) their estates can be sued though and held liable (if they actually had anything) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.