Breaking News: Cuba's former leader Fidel Castro has died aged 90, state TV announces

[Springfield]

28 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

It amazes me what people are willing to blame or credit a president for (and I apply this to both sides of the aisle).  we need to decide if what happens on a presidents watch is credited to them or not and apply that evenly.   

Wouldn't that be something.

The tech boom was Clinton's fault.

9-11 was Bush's fault

The Great Recession was Bush's fault

Killing Osama was Obama's fault

Police brutality on blacks was Obama's fault

 

 

Reality is, none of them had much to do with the other.  Leaves me hope that Trump won't mess up too much.

[TradeTheBeal!]

20 minutes ago, tshile said:

That's what makes it incredible.

Their gullibility and naivete despite improved literacy and in general improved education.

Wasted opportunities 

 

Probably reading these UN Human Development Reports and making the very informed decision to not become Haiti.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/countries

[tshile]

19 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Probably reading these UN Human Development Reports and making the very informed decision to not become Haiti.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/countries

Then deciding that killing the people that oppose your political ideology is an acceptable means to an end.

Based on how some on the left act it's not unsurprising the appeal they've found with some of these people.

[Destino]

On November 26, 2016 at 10:24 AM, nonniey said:

For years Pinochet was the big evil boogie man for the left in Latin America/South America and for many of them (as shown today) Fidel was the hero who stood up to the United States and did good for his people.

Yet if you compare it is no competition. Castro brutalized and murdered exponentially more people that Pinochet (anywhere from 30-40 times more) with a smaller population than Chili.

As for the good - Castro led Cuba to and left it in poverty while Pinichet's Chili prospered.

This is not a defense of Pinochet it is a demonstration of some on the lefts hypocrisy. 

It's spelled Chile and Pinochet was a monster.  Damn shame both he and Castro lived long enough to die as old men.  

[Destino]

On November 26, 2016 at 11:02 AM, jpyaks3 said:

You are going to have to source some of your "facts". Also its spelled "Chile".

I would say Fidel will fall pretty squarely in the middle of Latin American leaders, he provided the people of Cuba with healthcare and literacy but he used oppressive policies in the political sphere to accomplish it. He is no Papa Doc or Trujillo, but he is no saint either. He will probably be remembered more as a symbol than for his accomplishments either way.

Easy to remember dictators as symbols when it's not your stuff they took and your family they threatened.  Imagine going to a prison and sitting opposite the glass with a man wrongly jailed and telling him "You're lucky, reports say this place has a first class medical staff and a first class prisoner education program". That's what all these people heaping praise on Castro are doing.  

[AsburySkinsFan]

11 hours ago, Hersh said:

You should think about all the people in China's jails next time you buy something made in China. I mean, you are legitimizing their brutality when you do that. This is the kind of cherry picking I am talking about. Speaking with dictators is something our country does all over the world. Trading with countries that have brutal regimes is something this country has done for decades. If you have a problem with Cuba, a nothing little country as far as strategic importance goes, you should have problems with Russia and China and probably some other countries we trade and do business with every day. 

The only reason that the US has not moved on from Cuba is the Cuban-American voters in Florida and the importance of winning Florida to win a national election. It has nothing to do with whether they are a democracy or not. 

Holy freaking mic drop Batman!!

Thar be sum larnin' takin' place ov'r 'ere!!

The Republicans are just pissed that they didn't open up to Cuba first. Instead they get off on pretending to be hardliners and sending kids to die in sandpits for "our freedom."

[TradeTheBeal!]

53 minutes ago, tshile said:

Then deciding that killing the people that oppose your political ideology is an acceptable means to an end.

Based on how some on the left act it's not unsurprising the appeal they've found with some of these people.

 

Still better than Haiti and still better than Bautista.  And the people know that...and you know it too.

[nonniey]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

It's spelled Chile and Pinochet was a monster.  Damn shame both he and Castro lived long enough to die as old men.  

Good Grief what part of not a defense of Pinochet did you not get? Yes he didn't get what he deserved - prison or worse. He was responsible for the murder for over 3000 people and the torture/imprisonment of 40000 more. He was rightfully indicted by that Spanish court. Question is why did the court not indict Castro who could have been apprehended when he visited Spain (4-5 years ago?)  After all Castro killed about 90,000-120,000 people, and tortured and imprisoned hundreds of thousands more for political crimes.  I was pointing out the hypocrisy of anyone praising Castro now and especially the ones who who focused on Pinochet when Castro was by orders of magnitude worse. 

You will not hear me praising either but you will hear many praising Castro on the one side and then adamantly condemn Pinochet on the other.

 

[MEANDWARF]

May those whom were the victims of his oppression now have peace.

[Bozo the kKklown]

21 hours ago, Zguy28 said:

I'm a conservative (I assume you mean folk like me), and I do not. That's like wishing Iraq would go back to Saddam because of ISIS. I think you do have a point though that because of the length of term, and how bad Castro's gov't was, many Americans don't see past him, and when they do, they only see that capitalism was there before the socialism. I bet most Americans don't even know who ruled before Castro.

Cheers for the response

i was not talking about conservatives tho. I think Americans of every political view mistaking ly think Cuba was great before Castro. It's been what our media and government has propagandized since the revolution happened.

[Hersh]

3 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Holy freaking mic drop Batman!!

Thar be sum larnin' takin' place ov'r 'ere!!

The Republicans are just pissed that they didn't open up to Cuba first. Instead they get off on pretending to be hardliners and sending kids to die in sandpits for "our freedom."

The amusing about Trump claiming to undo what Obama has done is that he would be hurting US businesses. Aside from airlines losing business, anyone think cigar shops are just waiting to be able to sell Cuban cigars some day? Anyone for some Cuban rum? Or how about companies being able to buy Cuban sugar. 

Seriously, as mentioned in this thread, Trump needs to think about his new hotel in Cuba as a reason to stay the course. 

 

[Destino]

3 hours ago, nonniey said:

Good Grief what part of not a defense of Pinochet did you not get? 

 

Never said you did.  I responded merely because of your spelling mistake, but as a Chilean I couldn't respond to a topic concerning Pinochet without saying something bad about him.  I agree completely with your position that they are both bad.  

[abdcskins]

I don't know anything about Fidel Castro.

[Kosher Ham]

5 minutes ago, abdcskins said:

I don't know anything about Fidel Castro.

 

Seriously ? Come on man. Look up some movies, read perhaps a little, ask someone, google, or something. 

Why even post that ? 

The man was a political leader of a country called Cuba for decades. There, you have a start. Hope that helps a little. 

EDIT: Yes that was intended to be snarky in response to your attempt at humor. 

[abdcskins]

8 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

 

Seriously ? Come on man. Look up some movies, read perhaps a little, ask someone, google, or something. 

Why even post that ? 

The man was a political leader of a country called Cuba for decades. There, you have a start. Hope that helps a little. 

But did he Iike pizza? If he didn't then he is meaningless to me.

*edit* I know who he is, I was mostly thinking aloud to myself as in I'd like to research more about him. I know he abolished freedom of press and assembly as was mostly a tyrant but as always there is a lot to learn about someone who was so influential, for better or worse.

[twa]

you are in luck, there are volumes written about him....he did live a interesting life.

 

others were not so fortunate.

 

[abdcskins]

The New York Times has a great article in Sunday's issue for those interested. 

[jpyaks3]

6 hours ago, nonniey said:

Good Grief what part of not a defense of Pinochet did you not get? Yes he didn't get what he deserved - prison or worse. He was responsible for the murder for over 3000 people and the torture/imprisonment of 40000 more. He was rightfully indicted by that Spanish court. Question is why did the court not indict Castro who could have been apprehended when he visited Spain (4-5 years ago?)  After all Castro killed about 90,000-120,000 people, and tortured and imprisoned hundreds of thousands more for political crimes.  I was pointing out the hypocrisy of anyone praising Castro now and especially the ones who who focused on Pinochet when Castro was by orders of magnitude worse. 

You will not hear me praising either but you will hear many praising Castro on the one side and then adamantly condemn Pinochet on the other.

 

Where are you getting these numbers? The Chile ones are on point but the 90,000-120,000 people killed and hundreds of thousands more imprisoned because that seems, lets say a little exaggerated. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have nowhere near that number nor do most international bodies but they all do a good job pointing out his repressive governance with regards to freedom of expression and journalism and the like. I am curious where you are getting your information from that is so different from leading human rights groups.

[Springfield]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

[nonniey]

2 hours ago, jpyaks3 said:

Where are you getting these numbers? The Chile ones are on point but the 90,000-120,000 people killed and hundreds of thousands more imprisoned because that seems, lets say a little exaggerated. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have nowhere near that number nor do most international bodies but they all do a good job pointing out his repressive governance with regards to freedom of expression and journalism and the like. I am curious where you are getting your information from that is so different from leading human rights groups.

The atrocities of Pinochet are actually well documented. Around 3000 give or take a couple of  hundred are pretty much the consensus (the vast majority of sources have them in that range). Now Cuba isn't as well documented some claim the killings there are as low as 15,000 others well above 120,000  most have them in the range of 90-120K (Although I think the higher numbers may include those missing, dying while detained,  and those that died fleeing the island - still digging).  Cuba did officially sentence only 230 to death but this did not include those that were executed extra-judicially (whole lot more of those in the early years - Che famously was involved in the latter category).

" According to the Commission of Truth and Reconciliation (Rettig Commission) and the National Commission on Political Imprisonment and Torture (Valech Commission), the number of direct victims of human rights violations in Chile accounts for at least 35,000 people: 28,000 tortured, 2,279 executed, and 1,248 missing. In addition, some 200,000 people suffered exile and an unknown number went through clandestine centers and illegal detention. "

 

"According to Amnesty International, death sentences from 1959–87 numbered 237 of which all but 21 were actually carried out.^[19] The Cuban Government justified such measures on the grounds that the application of the death penalty in Cuba against war criminals and others followed the same procedure as that seen in the trials by the Allies in the Nuremberg trials. Some Cuban scholars maintain that had the government not applied severe legislation against the torturers, terrorists, and other criminals employed by the Batista regime, the people themselves would have taken justice into their own hands.^[20]

Latin American historian Thomas E. Skidmore says there had been 550 executions in the first six months of 1959.^[21] British historian Hugh Thomas, in his study Cuba or the pursuit of freedom^[22] stated that "perhaps" 5,000 executions had taken place by 1970,^[21] while The World Handbook of Political and Social Indicators ascertained that there had been 2,113 political executions between the years of 1958–67.^[21]

Professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, Rudolph J. Rummel estimated the number of political executions at between 4,000 and 33,000 from 1958–87, with a mid range of 15,000." 

 

[jpyaks3]

33 minutes ago, nonniey said:

The atrocities of Pinochet are actually well documented. Around 3000 give or take a couple of  hundred are pretty much the consensus (the vast majority of sources have them in that range). Now Cuba isn't as well documented some claim the killings there are as low as 15,000 others well above 120,000  most have them in the range of 90-120K (Although I think the higher numbers may include those missing, dying while detained,  and those that died fleeing the island - still digging).  Cuba did officially sentence only 230 to death but this did not include those that were executed extra-judicially (whole lot more of those in the early years - Che famously was involved in the latter category).

" According to the Commission of Truth and Reconciliation (Rettig Commission) and the National Commission on Political Imprisonment and Torture (Valech Commission), the number of direct victims of human rights violations in Chile accounts for at least 35,000 people: 28,000 tortured, 2,279 executed, and 1,248 missing. In addition, some 200,000 people suffered exile and an unknown number went through clandestine centers and illegal detention. "

 

"According to Amnesty International, death sentences from 1959–87 numbered 237 of which all but 21 were actually carried out.^[19] The Cuban Government justified such measures on the grounds that the application of the death penalty in Cuba against war criminals and others followed the same procedure as that seen in the trials by the Allies in the Nuremberg trials. Some Cuban scholars maintain that had the government not applied severe legislation against the torturers, terrorists, and other criminals employed by the Batista regime, the people themselves would have taken justice into their own hands.^[20]

Latin American historian Thomas E. Skidmore says there had been 550 executions in the first six months of 1959.^[21] British historian Hugh Thomas, in his study Cuba or the pursuit of freedom^[22] stated that "perhaps" 5,000 executions had taken place by 1970,^[21] while The World Handbook of Political and Social Indicators ascertained that there had been 2,113 political executions between the years of 1958–67.^[21]

Professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, Rudolph J. Rummel estimated the number of political executions at between 4,000 and 33,000 from 1958–87, with a mid range of 15,000." 

 

In none of those sources is the number 90,000-120,000 killed by Castro outlined or mentioned, each has the number much much lower ranging from 21 in Amnesty International up to Rummel's 4,000-33,000 which seems like a wide range for something like that. You say most agree that it is 90-120,000 but every source you have provided has the numbers nowhere near that number so I have no idea how you are reaching that conclusion.

 

I don't disagree on the Pinochet numbers those are pretty well documented although many of those missing can probably be safely counted as killed by the regime.

[nonniey]

21 minutes ago, jpyaks3 said:

In none of those sources is the number 90,000-120,000 killed by Castro outlined or mentioned, each has the number much much lower ranging from 21 in Amnesty International up to Rummel's 4,000-33,000 which seems like a wide range for something like that. You say most agree that it is 90-120,000 but every source you have provided has the numbers nowhere near that number so I have no idea how you are reaching that conclusion.

 

I don't disagree on the Pinochet numbers those are pretty well documented although many of those missing can probably be safely counted as killed by the regime.

I did say I believe the higher estimates may have included included those who died fleeing or in the camps/prisons and I was still digging.  Deaths as a result of mistreatment in prison or reeducation camps would not count in these execution figures.  But if we just go ahead with these figures 30-40 times worse than Pinochet would be an exaggeration looks like he was only 3-10 times worse.  

 

Which still begs the question why didn't that Spanish Court indict Castro? Why didn't Spain (or any other country) detain him after he had retired?  I think we all know why - Castro was considered to be a Progressive and there is no way a progressive judge/court was going to indict a fellow traveler.  Praising Castro like many are doing now is hypocrisy at it's plainest.

[BornaSkinsFan83]

Why are you using progressive instead of Communist?

[Zguy28]

On 11/27/2016 at 0:03 AM, TryTheBeal! said:

Che Guevara killed millions?

No, he didn't. Probably more like hundreds directly.

[abdcskins]

I'm not sure socialism is a viable economic system.