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Breaking News: Cuba's former leader Fidel Castro has died aged 90, state TV announces

visionary

By visionary
in The Tailgate

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nonniey

nonniey

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, BornaSkinsFan83 said:

Why are you using progressive instead of Communist?

Because the Judge and Court I'm in Spain has been alluded to as progressive (Don't believe it id's itself as communist though) and I've also seen Castro alluded to as progressive (just yesterday in the Guardian), heck I've even seen Communism and Anarchy referenced as progressive. Ask any Communist or Anarchist and they will tell you so (Pretty sure the Communists have called themselves progressives since their earliest days). 

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Bozo the kKklown

Bozo the kKklown

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, nonniey said:

I did say I believe the higher estimates may have included included those who died fleeing or in the camps/prisons and I was still digging.  Deaths as a result of mistreatment in prison or reeducation camps would not count in these execution figures.  But if we just go ahead with these figures 30-40 times worse than Pinochet would be an exaggeration looks like he was only 3-10 times worse.  

 

Which still begs the question why didn't that Spanish Court indict Castro? Why didn't Spain (or any other country) detain him after he had retired?  I think we all know why - Castro was considered to be a Progressive and there is no way a progressive judge/court was going to indict a fellow traveler.  Praising Castro like many are doing now is hypocrisy at it's plainest.

You are typing a lot of conjecture, mixed with conspiracy theories, mixed with misinformation, and laced in nonsense.

 

It is best that you stop typing about this topic.

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nonniey

nonniey

Posted
Posted
50 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

You are typing a lot of conjecture, mixed with conspiracy theories, mixed with misinformation, and laced in nonsense.

 

It is best that you stop typing about this topic.

What conjecture, what misinformation?  It is all on record.

- 1.  General Augusto Pinochet was indicted for human rights violations committed in his native Chile by Spanish magistrate Baltasar Garzón on 10 October 1998. He was arrested in London six days later and held for a year and a half before finally being released by the British government in March 2000. Authorized to freely return to Chile, Pinochet was there first indicted by judge Juan Guzmán Tapia, and charged with a number of crimes, before dying on 10 December 2006, without having been convicted in any case. ........ it was the first time that a former head of government had been arrested on the principle of universal jurisdiction.[2]

- 2 Already showed that Castro was in orders of magnitude far worse that Pinochet  in violating human rights

- 3 Castro visited Spain in July 2015

- 4 Castro was never indicted - why??????

 

I guess you don't want me pointing out that the emperor has no clothes when it comes to the hypocrisy of some (Some) on the left.

- And to add insult to Injury the King of Spain is going to head Spain's delegation to Castro's funeral. 

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nonniey

nonniey

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

It is not. You were debunked a couple of times and yet still going on about this.

No one debunked me -  even Jypak (the only one that raised the issue) conceded the statics on Pinochet were accurate and he didn't dispute the figures that showed Castro was "only" 3-10 times worse than Castro instead of 30-40 times worse (As a I explained they are all over the place for Castro and 30-40 times worse is the high end).  The question isn't if Castro was worse the debate is over how much worse he was (Three times being the very low end). 

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Spaceman Spiff

Spaceman Spiff

Posted
Posted
Just now, TryTheBeal! said:

Just dropping in to point out that, in the same era, for the same reasons, Nixon killed about 200,000 Vietnamese citizens.  He did not, however, provide them healthcare and a public education system when he was finished.

People love bringing up this education system that Castro had given his people.  This might be a dumb question, probably is, but I'll ask:

What good is a public education system if you're still going to rule over your people with an iron fist and dictate what they do?  An education can be great, but IMO it doesn't mean **** if you don't have any freedom to use it and pursue a better life.

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Bozo the kKklown

Bozo the kKklown

Posted
Posted

I think the point is that Castro wasnt someone that should be wholly lauded, but he also should not be wholly demonized.

 

HE was very grey. The issue is that the extremes, particularly from those who hate Castro, don't bother with anything but hating Castro. He was a very complex political leader who lead an amazing revolution that ousted an US-backed dictator. He also committed many atrocities to dissidents.

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TradeTheBeal!

TradeTheBeal!

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

People love bringing up this education system that Castro had given his people.  This might be a dumb question, probably is, but I'll ask:

What good is a public education system if you're still going to rule over your people with an iron fist and dictate what they do?  An education can be great, but IMO it doesn't mean **** if you don't have any freedom to use it and pursue a better life.

 

Odd question.  It's still a nation of 11 million people.  Arts, Science, Medicine, Engineering, etc. are still needed.  Now it's true that you can't finance a yacht by over-prescribing opiates or injecting Botox or triple-billing Medicare in Cuba...is that the type of "freedom" you're talking about?

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Bozo the kKklown

Bozo the kKklown

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Just dropping in to point out that, in the same era, for the same reasons, Nixon killed about 200,000 Vietnamese citizens.  He did not, however, provide them healthcare and a public education system when he was finished.

 

HYPOCRISY OF THE RIGHT!!!

#frothingatthemouth

how about the US government supported Pinochet.

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Kosher Ham

Kosher Ham

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

What good is a public education system if you're still going to rule over your people with an iron fist and dictate what they do?  An education can be great, but IMO it doesn't mean **** if you don't have any freedom to use it and pursue a better life.

So you have the freedom to use it to your advantage. 

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Spaceman Spiff

Spaceman Spiff

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Odd question.  It's still a nation of 11 million people.  Arts, Science, Medicine, Engineering, etc. are still needed.  Now it's true that you can't finance a yacht by over-prescribing opiates or injecting Botox or triple-billing Medicare in Cuba...is that the type of "freedom" you're talking about?

Or the freedom to further that education in another country without having to risk it all by paddling along in a tiny boat in shark infested waters.

I like how you automatically assume it's about big money, though.  

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TradeTheBeal!

TradeTheBeal!

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I think the point is that Castro wasnt someone that should be wholly lauded, but he also should not be wholly demonized.

 

HE was very grey. The issue is that the extremes, particularly from those who hate Castro, don't bother with anything but hating Castro. He was a very complex political leader who lead an amazing revolution that ousted an US-backed dictator. He also committed many atrocities to dissidents.

 

The fundamental principles of modern "conservative" rhetoric dictate that all the world must be seen through strict prism of Good vs Evil and Hero vs Villian.  See also..."Hillary is a Satanic child sex-cult member", "Obama is a Kenyan Muslim Communist", "Libs kill babies and sell the body parts".  There is no room in this mindset for moderation or compromise...and they celebrate this way of thinking as "freedom".

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TimmySmith

TimmySmith

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Odd question.  It's still a nation of 11 million people.  Arts, Science, Medicine, Engineering, etc. are still needed.  Now it's true that you can't finance a yacht by over-prescribing opiates or injecting Botox or triple-billing Medicare in Cuba...is that the type of "freedom" you're talking about?

It's possible he was talking about the freedom to question authority.  If you can't do that, the country's intelligence cannot exceed that of it's leadership.

6000 people in Cuba were jailed last year for exercising this freedom. 

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Bozo the kKklown

Bozo the kKklown

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

The fundamental principles of modern "conservative" rhetoric dictate that all the world must be seen through strict prism of Good vs Evil and Hero vs Villian.  See also..."Hillary is a Satanic child sex-cult member", "Obama is a Kenyan Muslim Communist", "Libs kill babies and sell the body parts".  There is no room in this mindset for moderation or compromise...and they celebrate this way of thinking as "freedom".

I feel what you are saying, but in the case of Castro, Ive seen many liberals say the same thing. You can read them in this thread.

 

Its just the propoganda our country has said about Cuba. Its why you read nonsense that "Castro took teh richest country in the Caribbean and made it impoverished," while ignoring the horrors that lead Cubans to support the Castro Revolution.

Again, nothing I am saying is to make it seem like Castro was an amazing person. Just that he was very grey.

Americans are just lacking a lot of critical thinking and nuance, and that scares me.

But I really do not like this rhetoric coming out about how much of a monster Castro is, when our government has supported monsters and is still supporting monsters around the globe.

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TradeTheBeal!

TradeTheBeal!

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Ah, jokes.  Well, I'm sure the people that have made the risk by paddling along in those conditions wouldn't find it hilarious.  

 

Why aren't they boating to Haiti?

And why are 2500 international exchange students studying at Cuban universities on a yearly basis?

 

Again, as others have stated, there's a lot of gray area in Castro's legacy.  It is what it is.

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nonniey

nonniey

Posted
Posted
53 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I think the point is that Castro wasnt someone that should be wholly lauded, but he also should not be wholly demonized.

 

HE was very grey. The issue is that the extremes, particularly from those who hate Castro, don't bother with anything but hating Castro. He was a very complex political leader who lead an amazing revolution that ousted an US-backed dictator. He also committed many atrocities to dissidents.

You can always look for silver linings from any leader. Was Pinochet grey? If you say otherwise you'd be a hypocrite.  Point is some on the left, and you, treat Castro better than he deserves. He deserved to be indicted, he deserved prison as does his brother Raul.  I'll straight say Pinochet deserved his indictment, why won't you say Castor likewise deserved the same treatment that Pinochet received?

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