Chris Baker vs Joe Barry

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, skins island connection said:

Well, I agree with you on the first line; "coaches coach".  Sana the few defensive impact players who came into the league with raw talent, the rest were 'coached ' . If a coach teaches poorly, you get poor quality players. If a coach teaches and challenges a player and the player takes to it, then you have a very good if not great player.

There was similar disturbances with Haslett, but it fell upon deaf ears; only when other input was given to him by higher ups, did he change things, but very little. He's gone now.

These guys don't like losing and neither do us. A player is on the field, in the middle of the action, so I'd trust what the player sees and take his info to heart if it made sense. Its a gamble but if the current situation isn't working, hey, change it !  If Barry is too focused on x's and o's to envision what is coming then someone should say hey this isn't working we have to do this instead.

Keep in mind, Barry isn't some brainiac wonder DC, his past record existed with Suh's level of performance, which leads back to the earlier part of my statement of a player coming into the league with talent, but not expanded or controlled.

 

Not sure of your point there. Barry was the DC in Detroit in 2007 and 2008. Suh was not drafted until 2010. Barry had zero talent in Detroit. Last year we actually improved in many important categories with yards being the one major area where we were bad.

This year is not going well. But the last half of the giants game they played much better. I personally think he has just been too timid with his play calling. He is playing not to lose when you have to be aggressive in this league. Baker and him getting into it may have helped them all. Also, as someone else said, Hall going out seemed to help. I like Dhall and wish him the best, but he was not making the transition very well.

Time will tell.

 

 

[SkinsPassion4Life]

On 9/26/2016 at 4:44 PM, Alexa said:

I would take Haslett over Barry. I don't remember having a DC this bad since Ron Lynn.

 

 

Good ole Ron "prevent a win" Lynn

Strong leaders surround themselves with quality people....Gruden surrounded himself with the likes of Barry and Kotwica....

[Bishop Hammer]

I couldn't imagine a player arguing with his coach like that during the Gibbs era.  Or over in New England on the Patriots sideline.  

 

This is the sort of shenanigans that happen with The Browns, Bucs, Lions, etc, etc.  The Skins have a long way to go to leave the company of bad teams and get mention in the same breath as good ones.

[Wildbunny]

56 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

Good ole Ron "prevent a win" Lynn

Strong leaders surround themselves with quality people....Gruden surrounded himself with the likes of Barry and Kotwica....

You really want to complain about Kotwica?

Maybe you want to go back to Keith Burns?

Our St is skyrocketting since we got Kotwica... Seriously, you prefered:

or:

[shakinaiken]

41 minutes ago, Bishop Hammer said:

I couldn't imagine a player arguing with his coach like that during the Gibbs era.  Or over in New England on the Patriots sideline.  

You don't remember Tom Brady's tantrum with Bill O' Brien after he threw a redzone pick to Josh Wilson? Arguments between players and coaches happen pretty frequently, regardless of the organization's quality. 

[Koolblue13]

5 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Read an article that said we scrapped the NT entirely and exclusively ran 4-man fronts this past game, with our pass rushers rotating at DE.

That's a good sign.

During the giants game? The first half and first half of the cowboys game, we were in a traditional 3 down set. I imagine we'll see the same thing against the Brown's.

I think that's why Baker was getting so pissed off. He's the only one over the center and both guards. Our Ends might be rushing every play, but they're coming from outside the tackles. By the time they're getting close to Eli, the ball was handed off and the back was already at the second level smashing past Compton, with Pugh blocking.

It happened on the goal line play that pissed off Baker too. 

[goskins10]

5 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

Good ole Ron "prevent a win" Lynn

Strong leaders surround themselves with quality people....Gruden surrounded himself with the likes of Barry and Kotwica....

 

I keep seeing a few people complain about Kotwica I have to assume that's just lumping. STs under Kotwica has been outstanding. Yes, there have been a few missteps. But those have been player mistakes not scheming. That happens early in the season as many young guys are on STs. But outside of return yds last year the STs was among the best in the NFL in almost every other category. Having Way and Hopkins helps, but it's not all them. Both coverage teams were very good. Now, the punt returns are getting better.

Barry's D is struggling - although they did settle down the last half against the giants, hoping that's a trend - so he deserves much of what he gets. But Kotwica does not. He has done a pretty good job so far.

[skins island connection]

7 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

Not sure of your point there. Barry was the DC in Detroit in 2007 and 2008. Suh was not drafted until 2010. Barry had zero talent in Detroit. Last year we actually improved in many important categories with yards being the one major area where we were bad.

This year is not going well. But the last half of the giants game they played much better. I personally think he has just been too timid with his play calling. He is playing not to lose when you have to be aggressive in this league. Baker and him getting into it may have helped them all. Also, as someone else said, Hall going out seemed to help. I like Dhall and wish him the best, but he was not making the transition very well.

Time will tell.

 

 

Lesson to me; never cook and type.

I didn't want to keep typing being supper was just about ready, and that's where I left to tend to the grub. It should have said 'without a player like Suh's performance', and then about the inability to improve/build around that, but he never stayed anywhere long enough to do this.

[RandyHolt]

8 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Hate to say it, but felt we also started playing better once Blackmon stepped in for DHall.  Either way, defense deserves credit for letting the offense catch up and take the lead. I also believe we're a better team under Barry at creating turnovers.  A couple times we couldn't stop them we just ended the drives with taking the ball away, so Barry saved himself for another week.  I was ready to leave him in New Jersey at rate first half defense was going.

I had not been impressed with DHall at Free. He hits so hard, it's like he has a SS mentality. Will Blackmon has been one of my favorite players since we got him a year ago, because he was schooled properly by previous coaches on how to strip the ball, and to try to strip the ball.  Square up to the runner, and then go for the ball.

I feel the difference in our defense was easiest seen by the turnovers. Without the turnovers, Barry's defense was still getting lit up.  The same winning formula for him as last year. Barry seems hesitant to adjust mid game, but he finally does. Post Baker blowup, I think he put more pressure on Eli via the blitz coupled with man coverage, leading to the 2 back breaking INTs he had. Add in the turnover machine at free, and yep Barry survives another week.

6 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

Good ole Ron "prevent a win" Lynn

Strong leaders surround themselves with quality people....Gruden surrounded himself with the likes of Barry and Kotwica....

Ron Lynn. What a hot mess we were under his feeble defenses.

We actually had a stout DL but he had them playing read react and get runover. I think he set the record that year for allowing 9 yds on 1st down.

[pjfootballer]

Some of you are sniffing too much glue if you don't think there isn't any arguing on any sideline of any team.  Even your "Precious Patriots."  It's part of the game.  It just gets magnified on a losing team. 

I saw many a times players and coaches yelling at each other on the sidelines during Gibbs first run. 

Hell, go back and watch some old NY Giants clips of Parcells and Sims practically ready to hit each other during their SB runs.

You guys just like to make mountains out of molehills with our team. 

I for one like it.  It shows the players are tired of losing and really care.  The types of players we've been wanting Scot to bring in for a long time. 

[SkinsPassion4Life]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

I keep seeing a few people complain about Kotwica I have to assume that's just lumping. STs under Kotwica has been outstanding. Yes, there have been a few missteps. But those have been player mistakes not scheming. That happens early in the season as many young guys are on STs. But outside of return yds last year the STs was among the best in the NFL in almost every other category. Having Way and Hopkins helps, but it's not all them. Both coverage teams were very good. Now, the punt returns are getting better.

Barry's D is struggling - although they did settle down the last half against the giants, hoping that's a trend - so he deserves much of what he gets. But Kotwica does not. He has done a pretty good job so far.

 

We must lead the league in having punts blocked under Kotwica.   Constant penalties on ST.....The return game has not been that good overall.  

 

[NattyBo]

6 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

You really want to complain about Kotwica?

Maybe you want to go back to Keith Burns?

Our St is skyrocketting since we got Kotwica... Seriously, you prefered:

 

or:

 

 

I think you're mistaking correlation for causation. I'd argue that the improved special teams play we've seen owes a lot more to the fact that we have way more depth since GMSM came than we had previously.  Depth really shows in special teams.

[goskins10]

39 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

We must lead the league in having punts blocked under Kotwica.   Constant penalties on ST.....The return game has not been that good overall.  

 

 

Last yr we had 1 punt blocked - this yr it is zero! Can't count the one that didn't count. Yes it happened but was negated by a Giants penalty. But even with that it's 2! Lot's of new young guys - A missed assignment is not a scheme problem. Data comes from NFL.com.

We are 3rd in average punt return yds - 17.5. We have only received 8 punts - a testament to how well the Off is doing. Last year is was 4.8 - horrible which I said already. But it's much improved so far this yr. KO returns, while we only have 4 returns (rest are TBs), the average is 24.0 yds good for 10th best in the NFL.  Data comes from NFL.com.

In terms of penalties - we have exactly 1 STs penalty this yr - tied for best in the league!!  Here is the data. http://www.nflpenalties.com/phase.php?year=2016&view=total    Last year we had 17 - tied for 9th best in the NFL! 

So as I said - complain about Kotwica if you want but there is no data to support it. It's just complaining to complain.

[goskins10]

21 minutes ago, NattyBo said:

 

I think you're mistaking correlation for causation. I'd argue that the improved special teams play we've seen owes a lot more to the fact that we have way more depth since GMSM came than we had previously.  Depth really shows in special teams.

 

There is no mistake. You can get all the talent in the world and if you don't coach them it means nothing. You can't just say - well Scot has better depth so the STs are going to be great no matter who is coaching. You can't really believe that!

Need to move on to something that can be supported, like bad ILB and S play. A lack of aggressive play calling by our DC. A better commitment to the run game.

There are things that deserve to be criticized but STs is not one of them.

[TK]

8 hours ago, Bishop Hammer said:

I couldn't imagine a player arguing with his coach like that during the Gibbs era. 

Gary Clark. 

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, TK said:

Gary Clark. 

 

I was going to bring him up. There were also others.

We see hear and know so much more because of social media and the immediacy of information. There is so much more that we see and know about now that never got reported before. It got lost because there were more important things to report and there was not the same pressure to report something every second of every day. Now, as a media person you have to over report just to stay up.

[NattyBo]

30 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

There is no mistake. You can get all the talent in the world and if you don't coach them it means nothing. You can't just say - well Scot has better depth so the STs are going to be great no matter who is coaching. You can't really believe that!

Need to move on to something that can be supported, like bad ILB and S play. A lack of aggressive play calling by our DC. A better commitment to the run game.

There are things that deserve to be criticized but STs is not one of them.

 

I'm not saying it's all due to talent, but let's not pretend it has nothing to do with talent, either.  Obviously coaching plays a large part, too.

[goskins10]

5 minutes ago, NattyBo said:

 

I'm not saying it's all due to talent, but let's not pretend it has nothing to do with talent, either.  Obviously coaching plays a large part, too.

 

I agree talent clearly has a part. No one is pretending anything. Your first statement made it appear that you were saying it was all or mostly due to better players. It is some of both. You don't do well without both talent and coaching. So you have to give Kotwica credit just as much as Scot.

[NattyBo]

Just now, goskins10 said:

 

I agree talent clearly has a part. No one is pretending anything. Your first statement made it appear that you were saying it was all or mostly due to better players. It is some of both. You don't do well without both talent and coaching. So you have to give Kotwica credit just as much as Scot.

I think we're in agreement - I just wanted to point out that the talent aspect has certainly benefited Kotwica

[Wildbunny]

16 minutes ago, NattyBo said:

I think we're in agreement - I just wanted to point out that the talent aspect has certainly benefited Kotwica

Just like it helps Wade Philips in Denver. We've had that debate time and time again here.

Coaches all work the same, mostly. First they evaluate the talent at their disposal and try to get the best out of it. If they don't like what they see, they'll try to hide weaknesses amongst their team through gameplan, plays and such. Some are better at this than others, definately and any coach isn't going to turn a donkey into a horse. That's also how it works.

And Joe Barry is true to this rule. Now who knows maybe Jay kicked Barry's Ass at half-time telling him that no matter what his job will always be on the line or whatever, and the guy decided to go for it. Or it's a mix of Baker or RJF, Hall, his momma... Who knows. I'd like for him to succeed somehow. I love when guys improves and makes them better it benefits everyone.

[Bishop Hammer]

9 hours ago, shakinaiken said:

You don't remember Tom Brady's tantrum with Bill O' Brien after he threw a redzone pick to Josh Wilson? Arguments between players and coaches happen pretty frequently, regardless of the organization's quality. 

 

Yes and Bill O'Brien got up in Brady's face and made him back down.   On top of that Tom publicly admitted, in a press conference, Bill should have yelled at him and he was wrong to argue with him.  Barry just let Baker say whatever he wanted and the player continued to do so with no fear of repercussions.  

So if a multiple super bowl winning quarterback gets to big headed and gets put in his place immediately it's a sign the team doesn't put up with nonsense, regardless of Star power.  

The fact Joe didn't put his player in place as soon as it happened indicates the players do not have any respect for his authority.   If the players don't respect him they will not buy into the system.  If the players don't buy into the system their execution of it will be non exsistent.  If the execution isn't there the defense will always be subpar.  

[goskins10]

15 minutes ago, Bishop Hammer said:

 

Yes and Bill O'Brien got up in Brady's face and made him back down.   On top of that Tom publicly admitted, in a press conference, Bill should have yelled at him and he was wrong to argue with him.  Barry just let Baker say whatever he wanted and the player continued to do so with no fear of repercussions.  

So if a multiple super bowl winning quarterback gets to big headed and gets put in his place immediately it's a sign the team doesn't put up with nonsense, regardless of Star power.  

The fact Joe didn't put his player in place as soon as it happened indicates the players do not have any respect for his authority.   If the players don't respect him they will not buy into the system.  If the players don't buy into the system their execution of it will be non exsistent.  If the execution isn't there the defense will always be subpar.  

 

That is pure conjecture on your part. Different people manage differently. You do not know if Barry called him into his office Monday and they had it out. Good managers do not call people out in front of others. Just because he lets Baker yell on the sideline does not mean Baker has no respect for him.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. But good managers understand people handle things differently. If Baker had a point and Barry learned form it and made some changes, don't you think Baker will increase his respect for Barry even if was not there before?

There are two ways to look at things like this. As fans we tend to see the negative side - especially when it fits our own view of things....

[CBass1724]

On 9/26/2016 at 4:59 PM, skinzplay said:

What nobody has answered yet is the question about what Baker said to Barry on the sideline. Anyone have any info on that?

Swaggy was on the radio either Monday afternoon or Tuesday afternoon and explained that the Giants' tendency was to always run in that situation but Barry had made a call based on the personnel package the Giants used.

Baker went off tendencies from game film and Barry made a call based on the players in the game.  Swaggy 1 Barry 0 when it comes to studying and applying said knowledge.  Baker said we should have been in a goal line front.

He also played down the argument as NBD because it happens more often than we realize.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, Bishop Hammer said:

 

Yes and Bill O'Brien got up in Brady's face and made him back down.   On top of that Tom publicly admitted, in a press conference, Bill should have yelled at him and he was wrong to argue with him.  Barry just let Baker say whatever he wanted and the player continued to do so with no fear of repercussions.  

So if a multiple super bowl winning quarterback gets to big headed and gets put in his place immediately it's a sign the team doesn't put up with nonsense, regardless of Star power. 

He didn't back down, and most definitely didn't do it immediately lol...he was cursing up a storm with the coach. A player tried stepping in between O'Brien and Brady, didn't help one iota...Belichick had to step in and stand between Brady and O'Brien and calm O'Brien down.

 

 

[Stefanskins]

11 hours ago, pjfootballer said:

Some of you are sniffing too much glue