Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[Going Commando]

49 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

A lot of white Americans see it as an attack on America (and by proxy, whiteness. Even if they do not want to admit it)

 

That combined with how overly patriotic the NFL likes to pretend it is (while charging the military for it, which actually isnt patriotic but shhh) and it was a perfect storm.

 

Kaepernick's gesture was a very mild and inobtrusive form of protest, so the uproar it caused means there is more going than just being annoyed at him for refusing to perform a norm of patriotism.

The whole thing is a jumbled mess.  Kaepernick connecting protests of police killings of black men to the national anthem was a weird and confusing leap.  And in turn his angriest critics really pounced on his gesture to demonstrate that protesting police killings of black men is unpatriotic and shows a lack of support for the military.  When did the military ever factor into this?

I think the whole conflict/debate gets dumbed down to the point of uselessness when framed in the context of the NFL.  Colin isn't going to get the kind of awareness he seeks from his protest because the NFL's employees, talking head commentators, and fans are dumb about politics.  I doubt most of them know anything about the politics of black communities.  But I do think the attention his gesture received means he could get involved with a civil rights organization and be a visible advocate for them, and perhaps encourage other NFL players who are passionate about the issue to do the same.

[Bozo the kKklown]

9 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Or not - since no one seems to know he's been talking about this issue for months now. 

this is it.

 

11 minutes ago, twa said:

I thought he was bi-racial?

Are we sure he is black?

if you saw him on the street, you would tell him he is black. I know that judging by your posts on here, so lets not do this and attempt to distract.

 

 

 

Standing for the pledge is a choice. IF you require people to do that, then you start resembling those mean fascists we like to think only existed in Germany and Italy and Spain.

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Kaepernick connecting protests of police killings of black men to the national anthem was a weird and confusing leap.  

The national anthem was written by a racist, so its not a confusing leap at all.

 

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Colin isn't going to get the kind of awareness he seeks from his protest because the NFL's employees, talking head commentators, and fans are dumb about politics.  I doubt most of them know anything about the politics of black communities.

thats the point of protest.

You could say this about any form of protest where black people are railing against racial oppression. Its to make people aware.

4 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

But I do think the attention his gesture received means he could get involved with a civil rights organization and be a visible advocate for them, and perhaps encourage other NFL players who are passionate about the issue to do the same.

which is probably why he did it.

[Bozo the kKklown]

5 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

When did the military ever factor into this?

like I said before, a lot of white americans and those who think like that see it all as the same and attacking whiteness.

 

The funny thing about this military stuff is its always "support the troops" while they are over there. Then forget about them when they come back. Support troops, Ignore veterans.

[tshile]

1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

A lot of white Americans see it as an attack on America (and by proxy, whiteness. Even if they do not want to admit it)

So when a black person says they have a problem with it, are they seeing an attack on their whiteness? or the country's whiteness? or what's going on there?

[grego]

1 hour ago, The Evil Genius said:

Times might have been different and the racism back then was more overt, but it doesn't change that statistically there was a 6% rise in fatal shootings by police in the first 6 months of this year. 

And that blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be shot than whites.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fatal-shootings-by-police-surpass-2015s-rate/2016/07/07/81b708f2-3d42-11e6-84e8-1580c7db5275_story.html

 

And I think that's the discussion that should be coming out of this. Unfortunately, had Kap held on to his views and stood during the anthem - most people here would have listened to him more....

Or not - since no one seems to know he's been talking about this issue for months now. 

Statistics need context. (and I really don't want to go down this rabbit hole, even though the numbers should be looked into... I just don't have the energy) 

Why are blacks x number of times more likely to involved in a police shooting? Young black males (age 15-35 or so) make up approximately 3 % of the population, yet account for at least half of all violent crime. 

Given this, one might wonder how the number of shootings involving black males isn't actually higher. 

Good discussion on that and statistics here starting at 1:20 (one hour, twenty minutes, that is) or so. 

 

49 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

The funny thing about this military stuff is its always "support the troops" while they are over there. Then forget about them when they come back. Support troops, Ignore veterans.

Good point 

Edited August 30, 2016 by grego

[Popeman38]

 

1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

A lot of white Americans see it as an attack on America (and by proxy, whiteness. Even if they do not want to admit it)

 

That combined with how overly patriotic the NFL likes to pretend it is (while charging the military for it, which actually isnt patriotic but shhh) and it was a perfect storm.

 

7 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

like I said before, a lot of white americans and those who think like that see it all as the same and attacking whiteness.

 

The funny thing about this military stuff is its always "support the troops" while they are over there. Then forget about them when they come back. Support troops, Ignore veterans.

You know, generalizing the reaction to Kap not standing for the anthem as their view of an "attack on whiteness" is painting with an awful broad brush, don't you think? You are speaking for quite an entire race...

[tshile]

1 minute ago, Popeman38 said:

 

 

You know, generalizing the reaction to Kap not standing for the anthem as their view of an "attack on whiteness" is painting with an awful broad brush, don't you think? You are speaking for quite an entire race...

 

some people would call that... something. can't think of the word...

[Bozo the kKklown]

20 minutes ago, tshile said:

So when a black person says they have a problem with it, are they seeing an attack on their whiteness? or the country's whiteness? or what's going on there?

Ok.

 

But what I have noticed is that the loudest voices against Kapernick are white Americans, including the usual "he should find another country," or "this country has afforded him x,y,z." Many of them are also the ones who like to drop racial slurs against him as well, and those who are protesting for this country to do more for their people.

 

13 minutes ago, Popeman38 said:

 

 

You know, generalizing the reaction to Kap not standing for the anthem as their view of an "attack on whiteness" is painting with an awful broad brush, don't you think? You are speaking for quite an entire race...

True, that is why I said  "a lot" and not "all."

A lot of White Americans see the patriotic and nationalist stuff and their whiteness as one in the same. Hence why many of those same people are jumping on Kaepernick. This country is already perfect, whereas Kaepernick and people who think like him, want to see it become perfect.

Edited August 30, 2016 by BenningRoadSkin

[boobiemiles]

White America should back the idea of reparation for African Americans.  Not just for the horrors of slavery, but the fact that white america got fat while others starve.  And that starvation continues. Give the people money to reinvest in their community. That would cure a lot of problems. And it would be fair also. Then people can stand for the anthem not because a contrite feeling, but a proud one.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

14 hours ago, zoony said:

 

 

So whats holding back the AA community?  I might start with the prevailing attitudes towards education in my community.  Beyond that i dont know, but something stinks no doubt

 

Decades of systemic housing discrimination that still take place combined with antiquated notions of school funding.

[boobiemiles]

On 8/29/2016 at 6:36 AM, twa said:

 

Where you live?.... there are plenty here

Where?  I live in CT.  Where do you live?  I want to go there.  There is a black business in your neighborhood?

[Going Commando]

52 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

The national anthem was written by a racist, so its not a confusing leap at all.

 

Good Lord, anti-black racism was the paradigm of the US at the beginning of the 19th century.  It'd be easier to list the four white people who weren't racist by the norms of today than the ones who were.  Nevertheless, attempting to redefine the semiotics of the national anthem as racist is not a good tack.  I hope that people aren't actually trying to do that.

[Popeman38]

29 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

True, that is why I said  "a lot" and not "all."

A lot of White Americans see the patriotic and nationalist stuff and their whiteness as one in the same. Hence why many of those same people are jumping on Kaepernick. This country is already perfect, whereas Kaepernick and people who think like him, want to see it become perfect.

Define a lot. Because if 5%* of whites feel this way, the number is big, but it isn't "a lot" by any stretch. A lot needs to be a majority, and I just don't think the majority of whites feel that Kap is assaulting their whiteness.

It exists though, and there is no disputing we, as a country, have many miles to go. 

* random number, not my number.

[grego]

28 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Decades of systemic housing discrimination that still take place combined with antiquated notions of school funding.

'systemic', as in, the government?

not to get off topic, but how do we feel about school vouchers?

[Popeman38]

28 minutes ago, boobiemiles said:

Where?  I live in CT.  Where do you live?  I want to go there.  There is a black business in your neighborhood?

I live in Loudoun County, VA, and we have black businesses and black owned businesses here.  We also have plenty of idiots driving around with confederate flags on their trucks.

[Burgold]

2 minutes ago, Popeman38 said:

I live in Loudoun County, VA, and we have black businesses and black owned businesses here.  We also have plenty of idiots driving around with confederate flags on their trucks.

I don't see the Confederate flags, but Black owned, Asian owned, Latino owned businesses are all really common where I live too. It's a melting pot and no one thinks about it because that's been the normal my whole life. 

[Predicto]

6 hours ago, codeorama said:

 

Its because he's not some random struggling guy. He's paid millions for playing a game. Something most of us wish we could do yet he hates the place where he's allowed to have that opportunity. 

 

Most st people realize that if he lived somewhere else, his life wouldn't be as privledged as it is. 

 

Just curious.   Why would you assume that Kapernick "hates" this country?    

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

The national anthem was written by a racist, so its not a confusing leap at all.

 

Well the constitution was written by a majority of racists so I guess you want to throw that out also?  Hell, the country was founded by mostly racist so I guess we should just burn it all to the ground.

1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

like I said before, a lot of white americans and those who think like that see it all as the same and attacking whiteness.

 

Who exactly have you been talking to?  Because most of what I have seen/heard/read doesn't even come close to this. 

Quote

The funny thing about this military stuff is its always "support the troops" while they are over there. Then forget about them when they come back. Support troops, Ignore veterans.

Now there is something I can get behind.  Though I will note there is a lot of people calling for action on this.  It's just the crooked politicians getting in the way. 

34 minutes ago, boobiemiles said:

White America should back the idea of reparation for African Americans.  Not just for the horrors of slavery, but the fact that white america got fat while others starve.  And that starvation continues. Give the people money to reinvest in their community. That would cure a lot of problems. And it would be fair also. Then people can stand for the anthem not because a contrite feeling, but a proud one.

Okay this is the probably the dumbest idea I have heard yet.  I could actually see a justification for taking a large amount of money and investing it in AA communities.  But you want to just give people a bunch of money?  What and how would that cure a lot of problems?

31 minutes ago, boobiemiles said:

Where?  I live in CT.  Where do you live?  I want to go there.  There is a black business in your neighborhood?

 

 

I would venture to guess that the majority of businesses within 3 miles of my home are "black businesses".  I live in Pensacola, FL.  Stop on by!

35 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

But what I have noticed is that the loudest voices against Kapernick are white Americans, including the usual "he should find another country," or "this country has afforded him x,y,z." Many of them are also the ones who like to drop racial slurs against him as well, and those who are protesting for this country to do more for their people.

 

Again, where are you getting this from?

Quote

True, that is why I said  "a lot" and not "all."

A lot of White Americans see the patriotic and nationalist stuff and their whiteness as one in the same. Hence why many of those same people are jumping on Kaepernick. This country is already perfect, whereas Kaepernick and people who think like him, want to see it become perfect.

You keep throwing around the term "a lot" and it sounds like you mean a majority, as in over 50%.  Is that what you are saying?  Can you give us a % of white Americans that you think feel this way?

[No Excuses]

17 hours ago, codeorama said:

Some of you know, I'm a high school teacher. I go through this on the first day of school each year. I tell the students that I don't care if they say the pledge, I don't care if they put their hand in their heart, but they will stand. 

 

If what you wrote is true, you are a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[Going Commando]

39 minutes ago, boobiemiles said:

White America should back the idea of reparation for African Americans.  Not just for the horrors of slavery, but the fact that white america got fat while others starve.  And that starvation continues. Give the people money to reinvest in their community. That would cure a lot of problems. And it would be fair also. Then people can stand for the anthem not because a contrite feeling, but a proud one.

 

I get where you're coming from.  I think the creating new sources of Federal investment in poor black communities could be a good idea.  It's probably necessary to help uplift them.  And everyone ultimately benefits from a healthier society where we solve a lot of the problems of some of our most distressed communities.

But you can't call that investment reparations and it can't be limited strictly to black people.  You'll lose the support of a big majority of non-black people if you do, and you'd single out black people as needing handouts to become functional members of society.  That racist notion is a fringe belief that would become mainstream as a result of paying out reparations.

[Rskins06]

I can understand some statements of oppression, no one (I believe) is naïve enough to think it doesn't exist today.  What I don't understand is the continued support of people who continue to oppress groups of people but are still voted into power.  If there is a desire for change, then don't vote into power people who have lied and/or misled groups of people into believing they have their best interests at heart, when in reality, they only have their own power and interests at heart.

Don't vote in the same party which has oppressed people for decades by their policies and then complain about being oppressed, doesn't make sense to me.  If you continue to vote for the same political party and after decades of nothing improving, continue to vote for that same party expecting different results, isn't that insanity?

One political party in particular has been masterful at convincing people of minorities they will lift them up out of poverty, provide better education, better healthcare, better this, better that, etc.  and have done nothing but the opposite, but still somehow, are reelected to office. 

 

[The Evil Genius]

Maybe because the alternative was/is to vote for a party that has repeatedly been against the civil rights acts and has a 50+ yr history of exclusively courting the poor rural white america by playing up their fears of non-whites.  On top of that, when a party refuses to acknowledge systemic discrimination - then it's not a surprise that a minority group (that sees that discrimination every day) would continually distrust that party. So they go with the party that at least attempts to help them. 

Back on topic though..since everyone is an expert - what would have been the appropriate way for Kap to get this message out? Especially since it wasn't being heard via social media from most of us. 

Edited August 30, 2016 by The Evil Genius

[TheGreatBuzz]

4 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Back on topic though..since everyone is an expert - what would have been the appropriate way for Kap to get this message out? Especially since it wasn't being heard via social media from most of us. 

Organize, or at least attend, a BLM (or similar) march/protest.  Have his agent notify the media that he will be attending to get even more focus on the topic. 

Gone to any one of thousands of actual media organizations and done a free interview with them as long as they agreed that a significant portion would be focusing on his cause.

Using his fame to support a politician on ANY level of government who believes as he does and wants to make changes that Kap agrees with.

 

This is what I got in 30 seconds of thinking.  I'm sure if he really cared to and put some thought into it, he could come up with even more.

[grego]

7 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 systemic discrimination -

 

can you define what you mean by this? (just for clarity)

[No Excuses]

2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Maybe because the alternative was to vote for a party that has repeatedly been against the civil rights acts and has a 50+ yr history of exclusively courting the poor rural white america by playing up their fears of non-whites. 

 

That entire post is a powerful exhibit of what happens when you spend your entire life in the conservative safespace. I'm pretty sure he just got done watching Dinesh D'Souza's latest garbage documentary on how Democrats are the real oppressors of minorities and good ol Republicans who to this day fight against the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act are the real saviors.

Living in the far right wing bubble, you learn to say completely made up bull**** without taking a moment to say "Hmmm let's take a quick moment to fact check the statements I'm making".