Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[mcsluggo]

53 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Isn't he doing the opposite of political correctness?

the term holds the current mantle for most abused in the english language.    

it is the 2010-s version of calling someone a communist in the 1950s, or a heretic in the 1650s.....  or a poseur in the 1980s.   

[The Evil Genius]

Is patriot shaming the talk of removing the anthem before sporting events or the pc'ness that comes out in mass when athletes don't stand and/or sing?

[Popeman38]

15 minutes ago, drtdrums said:

We should  totally let Canada in on this "stop the anthem before events" idea.

I know patriot-shaming isn't a uniquely American pursuit, but it certainly seems that way some days.

Canada does it because we do it.  It started in WW I as a gimmick with the Cubs, but during the 7th inning stretch. The Red Sox one-upped the Cubs by moving it to pregame.  That was for the World Series though.  It wasn't until a decade or so later it became a regular season tradition -- in baseball.  Othe sports took notice and started to incorporate the anthem into their pregame ceremonies. Canada followed suit...

[Bang]

What is "patriot-shaming", anyway?

Seriously,, this country believes 100% that all of us should all support everything troops, everything flag, fully and without delay.

It's why we have a full blown flag and military splurge before every game, and why one of the hottest topics in the country right now is that someone refused to stand up during the song.

What exactly is the point of all of it?
i mean, there's the nice ideas, where we all feel a sense of shared pride for a moment before th game...
or they just want us to make the motions and defend the notions without thought.

I think it began as the first idea..  and is now starting to lok more of the second. It may not have any sinister implications like creating false and unquestioning fealty.. but history is filled with examples of how those ideals and exercises are used to subjugate, and / or create conquerors.
 

~Bang

Edited August 29, 2016 by Bang

[Sticksboi05]

One thing that needs to be addressed, and I mean this without any offense intended - it seems like we've reached a point in this nation where if you weren't in the military, your opinion is irrelevant on a bunch of topics.

Every time someone does something people take issue with its "Oh well, the troops do it and they sacrifice their lives for us...if they do it, you have to and if you haven't served, so you'll never know"

So my issue with that is, if you serve this country (thank you!), you are defending the Constitution, which last I checked, has a thing called the First Amendment that gives Colin the right to sit down during the anthem, and of course gives us the right to voice our displeasure. To suggest that he should be forced to stand up goes against the very freedoms this nation is founded on.

Second, it's a little disturbing to see this idea that the only people who contribute (and therefore who have valid opinions on these issues) are those fighting overseas. Police officers, firefighters, teachers, nurses, doctors, medical researchers, tech nerds who create gadgets that let us live a little lazier day by day, your local priest who houses homeless people etc. etc. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion and we don't need images of wounded veterans standing for the anthem as some sort of argument for why someone else should stand. It's lazy IMO.

I'm not saying I agree with Kapaernick, I'd rather he take actual action to remedy whatever situations he sees as unjust, but the arguments being thrown out for why he should have stood are at times, a little ridiculous. And please do not take this as me trying to take away anything from our armed forces, they have my support for what they do to keep us safe.

 

[Popeman38]

Just now, Sticksboi05 said:

One thing that needs to be addressed, and I mean this without any offense intended - it seems like we've reached a point in this nation where if you weren't in the military, your opinion is irrelevant on a bunch of topics.

Every time someone does something people take issue with its "Oh well, the troops do it and they sacrifice their lives for us...if they do it, you have to and if you haven't served, so you'll never know"

So my issue with that is, if you serve this country (thank you!), you are defending the Constitution, which last I checked, has a thing called the First Amendment that gives Colin the right to sit down during the anthem, and of course gives us the right to voice our displeasure. To suggest that he should be forced to stand up goes against the very freedoms this nation is founded on.

Second, it's a little disturbing to see this idea that the only people who contribute (and therefore who have valid opinions on these issues) are those fighting overseas. Police officers, firefighters, teachers, nurses, doctors, medical researchers, tech nerds who create gadgets that let us live a little lazier day by day, your local priest who houses homeless people etc. etc. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion and we don't need images of wounded veterans standing for the anthem as some sort of argument for why someone else should stand. It's lazy IMO.

I'm not saying I agree with Kapaernick, I'd rather he take actual action to remedy whatever situations he sees as unjust, but the arguments being thrown out for why he should have stood are at times, a little ridiculous. And please do not take this as me trying to take away anything from our armed forces, they have my support for what they do to keep us safe.

 

Colin has the right to sit without the government stepping on his toes. The NFL, and the 49ers have every right to require an employee to stand. They have chosen not to, of course. The 1st Amendment protects from government intrusion, not employer intrusion.  This is one of those things that always gets thrown around.  This is not a 1st Amendment issue...

[Sticksboi05]

Just now, Popeman38 said:

Colin has the right to sit without the government stepping on his toes. The NFL, and the 49ers have every right to require an employee to stand. They have chosen not to, of course. The 1st Amendment protects from government intrusion, not employer intrusion.  This is one of those things that always gets thrown around.  This is not a 1st Amendment issue...

 

I think you're addressing something different than what I was getting at.

[Popeman38]

43 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

 

I think you're addressing something different than what I was getting at.

No, you said:

Quote

So my issue with that is, if you serve this country (thank you!), you are defending the Constitution, which last I checked, has a thing called the First Amendment that gives Colin the right to sit down during the anthem, and of course gives us the right to voice our displeasure. To suggest that he should be forced to stand up goes against the very freedoms this nation is founded on.

The NFL and/or the 49ers can demand he stand (and terminate employment/fine him if he refuses), just not the government.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Popeman38

[twa]

1 hour ago, endzone_dave said:

I don't care about anything Kaepernick does.  He could pour gasoline on himself and light himself on fire before a game and I would just shrug my shoulders a go back to doing what I was doing.

 

But would that be carbon neutral?

[Burgold]

Didn't know the history behind the National Anthem, sports, and WWI. Cool to learn. Thanks, Popeman. 

 

The complaint we don't know what Kap does outside of sitting holds resonance, however, it kind of brings me back to gesture vs protest. 

Mid he's protesting we should know about his other actions. After all, by choosing to sit he's making a public statement. He's then upping the public part when he chose to give that explanation. 

Why wouldn't he talk about his other efforts? He wants to make a statement. He wants to protest injustice. On top of that, I think we'd hear about his involvement. These things surface quickly. 

So, while I think it's a fair criticism I am not sure if it's an accurate one I might be proven wrong though  

  

 

[The Evil Genius]

Well he met up with Dr Harry Edwards before practice yesterday, so I suspect the good Doc gave him some ideas on how he could promote change. What if this is just the first step? And really..why does he have to do anything else to make it worthwhile?

It's brought the issue up into the mainstream discussion. 

 

http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_30300981/49ers-kaepernick-dr-harry-edwards-talk-before-practice

 

[Going Commando]

What does the military get from the money it spends on patriotic displays before sporting events?  I assume the reason they are doing it is for a boost to recruiting.  But has there been a good cost-benefit analysis conducted on the practice?  The displays are often impressive but it feels like they could be a waste of money.

[Dan T.]

2 hours ago, KingGibbs said:

When I see our flag I see a symbol of freedom and I think about those that sacrificed their lives for that freedom. You disrespect both when you pull a Kaeperdick. Of course, once again, political correctness comes tp the forefront. Am I angry? No. Am I disgusted? Yes.

Some might say that those who sacrificed their lives did so in part so that everyone could express their views freely. As Kaepernick did.  Not that you have to agree with it...

[Mr. Sinister]

I think I am now okay with the fact that how I initially felt at the onset (and even last night) is certainly not how I feel now. The diversionary tactics and outright ignorance surrounding this, after he stood up like a man and thoroughly explained himself have been enough for me to stand firmly on his side now.

 

#Merica

 

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by Mr. Sinister

[The 12th Commandment]

37 minutes ago, Popeman38 said:

He can be forced to stand by the NFL and/or the 49ers, just not the government.

They can't force him, he can go work somewhere else.  They can demand but he's not forced to comply.  Splitting hairs, I know, but still is a distinction.

Edited August 29, 2016 by KAOSkins

[Popeman38]

Just now, KAOSkins said:

They can't force him, he can go work somewhere else.  They can demand but he's not forced to comply.  Splitting hairs, I know, but still is a distinction.

Good point. That is what I meant.  Will go back and edit...

[DogofWar1]

I don't have a problem with Colin sitting.

I don't have a problem with people criticizing him for sitting.

That's how the 1st works.

I do have a problem if he's doing this selfishly as a publicity stunt.  There are serious and legitimate issues facing the black community.  If you're going to make your stand (er.. sit) on the issue, it ought to be genuine.

I also have a problem with responses to him that cross the line.  I've seen a number of responses to him that drop the N-word and wish injury upon him.  Those sort of reinforce the point Kaep is making; if one is alleging unfair treatment of African Americans in the US, and the response to that allegation is people dropping racial slurs, that's...kind of problematic.

[The Evil Genius]

5 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

 

I do have a problem if he's doing this selfishly as a publicity stunt.  There are serious and legitimate issues facing the black community.  If you're going to make your stand (er.. sit) on the issue, it ought to be genuine.

 

 

I'm not arguing - just continuing on a point you made.

Considering this will cost him considerable endorsement dollars - I don't see what he gets out of it from a selfish viewpoint. He's even acknowledged that it will likely cost him financially. 

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by The Evil Genius

[The 12th Commandment]

I've always been more impressed with the people doing things that aren't in the public eye and shying away from credit.  At the same time, occasionally an issue has to be brought to the forefront through public demonstration.  If the latter was how Colin looked at it in this case he would have better served himself and his cause by getting together with other like minded players and doing something public off the field.  

I was always a fan of the strong silent characters in westerns and never liked the John Wayne mouthy types.  Not that the duke ever failed to back it up, but still Man with No Name for the win.

Edited August 29, 2016 by KAOSkins

[grego]

My perspective is a little different.

I'm not from America. It's my adopted country. It's where my dad chose to move to when I was a kid, and where I choose to live.

I also served in the military, for several reasons. One of them was to give back to my adopted country- to 'earn' my right to be American, even though its not really necessary. So I tend to get a little emotional when it comes to defending America, and that often get misunderstood as blind homerism. (maybe some homerism, but its not blind  )

Do I love what he is doing? No, not really. I think its too general an indictment of a country that has been a beacon of opportunity for people from all backgrounds. But I do get the right to free speech. And while I think that, personally, he should be more specific with regards to his reasoning (more so than just saying 'oppression') so the issue can be discussed more clearly, if it helps get the best trained policemen out there while rooting out the bad apples, that's not a bad thing.

[Mr. Sinister]

24 minutes ago, KAOSkins said:

I've always been more impressed with the people doing things that aren't in the public eye and shying away from credit.  At the same time, occasionally an issue has to be brought to the forefront through public demonstration.  If the latter was how Colin looked at it in this case he would have better served himself and his cause by getting together with other like minded players and doing something public off the field.  

I was always a fan of the strong silent characters in westerns and never liked the John Wayne mouthy types.  Not that the duke ever failed to back it up, but still Man with No Name for the win.

In the vein of what he is protesting, change was never brought about by being out of the public eye. Its been up close, personal, and uncomfortable. Sometimes, its the only way. You can have all the town hall meetings you want, where everyone speaks their mind and spreads good feels and talks about what needs to happen, but sometimes, one needs to be willing to poke that hornets nest, to bring even more attention to a topic, and get even more people talking, which will get other people talking, and so on and so forth. May or may not happen, but I think this was about as powerful a statement as one can make, given the intersecting topics (injustice, race, football, patriotism).

Edited August 29, 2016 by Mr. Sinister

[The Mayor of Fed Ex Field]

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

[The Evil Genius]

If you look at Kap's twitter - he's been outspoken about civil rights for awhile now. 

 

https://twitter.com/kaepernick7?lang=en

[Mr. Sinister]

2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

If you look at Kap's twitter - he's been outspoken about civil rights for awhile now. 

 

https://twitter.com/kaepernick7?lang=en

But no one heard him until he put himself in the line of fire.... Which I think may go a long way towards sparking more serious discussion

[Rskins06]

I wonder if he has donated any of his millions of dollars to the "oppressed"?  If not, isn't it a bit hypocritical?  To say I am taking a stand, but not willing to do anything about it (other than sit down for the national anthem) other than make a statement which is not based on factual information but of your own opinion, only to bring attention to yourself and say "Look at me!!!".  If you are willing to take a stand, TAKE A STAND and go all in!!  I would have more respect for that.  He is just a spoiled NFL player who has never experienced oppression who is upset he is out of the limelight and no one is paying attention to him.

As for respect for the flag, well, it is absolutely disrespectful (IMO) not to stand for it and try to use it as some symbol of oppression.  I have given 20 yrs of service to this country, multiple combat deployments (3 more to go) and it sickens me to see someone show disrespect to the US Flag (whether burning it, not standing for it, etc) as so many have given their lives defending it.  That being said, everyone has a First Amendment right, they are given that right by the freedoms we have and if you truly believe in the first amendment and freedom of speech, you can disagree with the statement or stand but you must respect that persons opinion and right to do what they believe.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Rskins06
Change of wording