Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[twa]

3 minutes ago, Predicto said:

 

Because Democrats are tricksy and blacks are lazy and love free handouts, of course.  

only the rich ones keeping them down 

[tshile]

I think the Democrats have a clear, demonstrable history of failing to come close to helping black people (or any minority for that manner) as much as they claim they will, as much as they claim they have, or or as much as their supporters pretend they have (i'm speaking in my time - the last 20-30 years, not stuff that went on in the 60's/70's.)

But the republicans haven't really done much either. If you're willing to extend the benefit of the doubt that the GOP isn't racist and does not have racist intentions (and I'm not saying you have to, just humor me and let's pretend we are extending said benefit of the doubt for a second) then at the very least what they have done is: nothing except say you have to work harder.

As much as the GOP decries the support democrats receive from the black population (and I think they have a valid argument here, mind you) they haven't exactly done much to try to 'recruit' the 'black vote' themselves.

Or any minority for that manner. I hate the constant accusations of conservatives being closet racists and sexists, but damn if there aren't plenty of people who self identify as conservatives (some are even elected politicians...) running around saying/voting for the dumbest **** that furthers the narrative.

If the republicans would just adjust their platform to recognize that slavery and decades of segregation has put a specific potion of the country is a significantly disadvantaged status, and came up with policies to help address that, and furthermore pitched those policies to their constituents as "it's good for all of us if we significantly decrease poverty, poor education standards, and crime", and they were actually good ideas... they could probably take the black vote away from the democrats.

It's not like the democrats have this long history of successfully bettering the inner city black communities around this country. The same mayors standing on podiums pretending to want to fight police brutality were authoring memos to police commissioners ordering them to step up aggressive policing to crack down on crime numbers (for reelection material, none the less.)

Jon Stewart did a segment once where it ended with such a note - basically warning the democrats that they aren't all that great themselves and if the republicans weren't run by clowns, the democrats would be in trouble.

Edited August 31, 2016 by tshile

[Rskins06]

What Democratic policies have actually helped the AA community?  Which policies have been put in place in AA communities that have lifted them out of poverty?  what about education policies?  What about Jobs?  I can pull out statistics of the high unemployment amongst young AA Men who live in Democratic controlled cities.  How about Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, Washington DC, etc, how have their Democratic leaders helped them and their community?  How has their lives gotten better the last 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years?  Explain?  Show me statistics that tell of a different story.  Seems to me, if the same issues are prevalent in the AA today as they were in the past, relying on the same is not the answer.

Seems to me, if you continue doing the same thing (voting for Democrats )and expecting different results (relying on the Democratic Party and their policies of oppression) could be a diagnosis of insanity.   

[No Excuses]

14 minutes ago, Rskins06 said:

What part will actually cause the country's downfall?

 

The fact that you think you have your own set of "facts" and anything contradictory to them is "liberals in academia spreading lies". You are wholly unaware of your own bias and likely always will be. Because anytime information that contradicts your view of the world is presented to you, no matter how true it is, decades of conservative spin has fine tuned you to dismissing it as liberal propaganda. 

The part where I disagree with zonny is that your line of thinking won't the downfall of this country. There are enough young conservatives who are absolutely ashamed of the fact denial machine conservative media has created. There is a majority rejection of conservative fact spinning in College Republican circles. But I'm sure all of these young educated conservatives are just "liberal brainwashed" too. Personally, I can't wait for them to hopefully take control of the insanity that has taken over the GOP, or all together leave the GOP for the Libertarians.

Edited August 31, 2016 by No Excuses

[Bozo the kKklown]

21 minutes ago, SemperFi Skins said:

 

Has it helped with oppression? I know the majority of black people I've talked to are disgusted by it, why, because it's saying that they are placed in to jobs without actually earning it. It shameful. And its NOT done the way it was designed.

I don't care about your circle of friends who are also under educated on this.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/184772/higher-support-gender-affirmative-action-race.aspx

[Chew]

David A Clarke speaks the truth.  You people can't handle one of your own kind telling you about yourselves.  

[Predicto]

11 minutes ago, Rskins06 said:

Really?  How so?

Because my thoughts are different than yours?  Because I don't just believe what a history book or political party tells me?  Or is it maybe I don't think like you  or have the same values, beliefs, etc, etc, etc? 

What part will actually cause the country's downfall?

My belief in capitalism?  My belief everyone should be treated equal and have equal opportunity to succeed without having a political party tell me I am helpless and need their assistance?  My belief in freedom of speech, freedom of religion?  Curious, what part of my thoughts are exhibit A and will ultimately lead to this countrys (one of which I love and have served for almost 20 yrs, 3 combat deployments, loss of friends, etc?)  Maybe it is because I don't believe the Gov't should have the power to control what I do, what I think or how I should believe. 

I disagreed, now I am part of the holocaust deniers because I don't believe as you do? 

 

 

Thank you for your service.

You still lack basic factual knowledge about a very straightforward issue.   No one can force you to learn anything, but we still can point out to you that you are a complete muttonhead on this particular matter. 

ps - this has nothing to do with "values" or "the government controlling you" or any of that other stuff you are pretending that we are assailing you about.   This has to do with you not knowing basic and uncontroversial factual information, and digging in your heels to assert your God-given right to remain ignorant.   In this way, you are exactly the same as a holocaust denier or any other conspiracy theorist.   You stuff your fingers in your ears and say "nya nya nya" to drown out facts you don't want to hear.

  

[Rskins06]

1 minute ago, youngchew said:

David A Clarke speaks the truth.  You people can't handle one of your own kind telling you about yourselves.  

No, he will be labeled a sell out, an uncle Tom, uninformed.

[Predicto]

9 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

If the republicans would just adjust their platform to recognize that slavery and decades of segregation has put a specific potion of the country is a significantly disadvantaged status, and came up with policies to help address that, and furthermore pitched those policies to their constituents as "it's good for all of us if we significantly decrease poverty, poor education standards, and crime", and they were actually good ideas... they could probably take the black vote away from the democrats.

 

 

Absolutely.   But they haven't - and they have actively thwarted every effort not only to address the problem, but even to acknowledge that there is a problem.

 We can debate the reasons why they have done that, but it is undeniable that for the last 20 years or so, that has been the unshakeable GOP stance on these sort of issues.  

[Springfield]

1 hour ago, Predicto said:

 

Yep.  George Washington himself demanded the slaves back, and Sir Guy Carleton (the new British commander sent to clean up the mess after the Brits surrendered) told Washington to go to hell and got them all out on British ships.   There was a sizeable black community set up in Nova Scotia, mostly in Halifax.  Some of them went to Sierra Leone too.  

 

"At a meeting with George Washington, among others, to arrange for the implementation of those parts of the Treaty of Paris relating to the evacuation of New York City, then commanded by Carleton and still occupied by the British Army, many Loyalists and former slaves, Carleton refused to deliver over the human property to the Americans at the time of the British evacuation. Instead, he proposed a registry so that "the owners might eventually be paid for the slaves who were entitled to their freedom by British Proclamation and promises."

Sir Guy noted that nothing could be changed in any Articles that were inconsistent with prior policies or National Honour. He added that the only mode was to pay for the Negroes, in which case justice was done to all, the former slaves and the owners. Carleton said that it would be a breach of faith not to honour the British policy of liberty to the Negro and declared that if removing them proved to be an infraction of the treaty, then compensation would have to be paid by the British government. To provide for such a contingency, he had a register kept of all Negroes who left, called the Book of Negroes, entering their names, ages, occupations, and names of their former masters. The Americans agreed to this, but as far as can be determined, the Crown never paid compensation.^[15] The British transported about 3,000 freedmen and other Loyalists to Nova Scotia for resettlement. As the colony struggled, some of the freedmen later chose in the early 1790s to go toFreetown, Sierra Leone, where the British set up a new colony, which included the Black Poor from London.

Washington disagreed with Sir Guy’s actions and wrote: "…the measure is totally different from the letter and spirit of the Treaty but waiving the specialty of the point, leaving this decision to our respective Sovereigns I find it my duty to signify my readiness in conjunction with you to enter into agreements, or take any measures which may be deemed expedient to prevent the future carrying away any Negroes or other property of the American people."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Carleton,_1st_Baron_Dorchester

 

 

 

Roger that.

 

My question is to whether non-slaves were forced into servitude as well.  This morning, I sort of worked myself I to a Wikipedia hole as I was reading about the national anthem.

So my source is this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

Emphasis on this: The United States declared war for several reasons, including trade restrictions brought about by the British war with France, the impressment of as many as 10,000 American merchant sailors into the Royal Navy,^[5] British support for Native American tribes fighting American settlers on the frontier, outrage over insults to national honour during the Chesapeake–Leopard Affair, and American interest in annexing British territory, and expanding the United States farther north.^[6] The primary British war goal was to defend their North American colonies; they also hoped to set up a neutral Indian buffer state in the Midwest that would impede American expansion in the Old Northwest and to minimize American trade with Napoleonic France, which Britain was blockading.

 

 

To be honest, if Kap accomplished anything for me, it was to bolster my knowledge about the war of 1812.  I like learning and refreshing my memory.  So, thanks to him for that.

[Rskins06]

10 minutes ago, Predicto said:

 

Thank you for your service.

You still lack basic factual knowledge about a very straightforward issue.   No one can force you to learn anything, but we still can point out to you that you are a complete muttonhead on this particular matter. 

ps - this has nothing to do with "values" or "the government controlling you" or any of that other stuff you are pretending that we are assailing you about.   This has to do with you not knowing basic and uncontroversial factual information, and digging in your heels to assert your God-given right to remain ignorant.   In this way, you are exactly the same as a holocaust denier or any other conspiracy theorist.   You stuff your fingers in your ears and say "nya nya nya" to drown out facts you don't want to hear.

  

That's the thing.  It is not as straightforward as you pretend it to be.  To say Democrats are basically righteous and pure and without flaw (not saying at all that is what you have said) and it is only because of the "Racist Republicans" is one sided and not open minded at all.  Here is what I truly believe, we can argue all day but you will find an EQUAL amount of racists in either party.  To pretend ONLY the RACIST Democrats switched over to republicans is not only factually incorrect, it is irresponsible to portray.

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Rskins06

[SemperFi Skins]

8 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I don't care about your circle of friends who are also under educated on this.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/184772/higher-support-gender-affirmative-action-race.aspx

 

under educated because you choose to not believe it or see it with your own eyes...  Fight the power, man.

[No Excuses]

9 minutes ago, Rskins06 said:

How about Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, Washington DC, etc, how have their Democratic leaders helped them and their community? 

 

Again, I'm going to point out to you the absolute bull**** you spin, that you hear on whatever your favorite conservative talk show is. Every single one of them brings up this point. 

And to point out a glaring problem in your line of thinking, look at education for instance. How do you think African American education fares in red vs. blue states? No one is going to tell you that Democrats do a great job of helping the AA community. But they surely seem to be doing a much better job than places that are under Republican control.

 

Notice something? By all means, these numbers are not good, regardless of the column. But they are better in states traditionally under Democrat control.

Now you seem to think internal politics and civic arrangements of inner cities are squarely under the control of mayors. Except that state legislators and governors have far more influence over the workings of cities than mayors. There are legitimate criticisms about Democrats at every government level (local, state or federal) and how they handle inner city problems. 

But do you know why despite all those problems African Americans continue to vote Democrat? Because the Republicans for the most part make zero effort themselves, and for the most part have been spending a lot of their time recently restricting access for these poor inner city people from voting: see NC voter ID laws, their strike down and the scathing review from the courts that called out NC Republicans on openly passing these laws to prohibit black people from voting.

Now I'm sure none of this makes any difference to you and I personally don't care. It is absolutely impossible to have this conversation with people like you who live in a bubble void of facts and context.

But a good start for far right conservatives on understanding why they are not voted for by African Americans would be to acknowledge the agency of these people, instead of calling them insane for voting for people "who are oppressing them". Stop the bull**** and maybe people will listen to you.

[Chew]

Me personally, I just feel like Trump can relate to the black community.  he understands their struggles and can relate to what it's like being a black man born & raised in southeast. 

Hillary, with her health issues, would probably pass out in a visit to Anacostia.

[Rskins06]

These people disagree....guess they are wrong as well.   Except, they are living it.

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Rskins06

[PCS]

15 minutes ago, Rskins06 said:

No, he will be labeled a sell out, an uncle Tom, uninformed.

Politically speaking,I believe he's been called sell out for many years. He runs as a Democrat though his views are seen as mostly conservative. What he should be "labeled" as,is a scary individual who probably shouldn't be in the position he is. This due to his affiliation with the CSPOA. 

[justice98]

Why do all these poor white people keep voting Republican.  What is the GOP doing for them?

[DogofWar1]

To Tshile's discussion on who has done what for whom, even if we pulled racism out of it for the right, and even if we assumed the left has done zero, the balance of favor would still be to the Dems due to the general impact of proposed GOP policies.

That is, they see the erosion of the Voting Rights Act, and even if we assume it's not racially motivated, it still harms African Americans.  It might harm others too, but it will certainly harm AAs, so from the perspective of an individual AA voter, it's a negative action.

To vote for the GOP is to vote for a platform that is taking action that harms African Americans.  Even if we pull all the racial connotations out, it can be boiled down purely to "policies in their interests" and "policies not in their interests."

And even if we assume Dems have done and will do nothing positive, their opposition to the negative policies alone is sufficient to make them more palatable.  Just as a bland piece of bread is preferable to poison, so also is a frustrating but not unlivable status quo preferable to a future with harsher policies.

[Rskins06]

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

As someone who was born a poor black child and remember the days, sittin' on the porch with my family, singin' and dancin' down in Mississippi...I suspect (again) that the reason the D platform appeals to the black community is that at least the D platform doesn't pretend that there isn't a systemic problem that is a major hurdle for them to clear.

The reality is, when the system is still set up specifically against a skin color (edit..and yes, also a poor/rich barrier), telling people to work harder isn't a solution. Neither is a call for more law enforcement (hi chip). At the very least, the D platform hasn't pretended that the system isn't ****ed. That cannot be said of the GOP platform (for the most part).  

6 minutes ago, justice98 said:

Why do all these poor white people keep voting Republican.  What is the GOP doing for them?

 

Keeping the poor black people and the gays/agnostics/heathens beneath them.

Edited August 31, 2016 by The Evil Genius

[Rskins06]

Please tell me HOW the Democratic Party has done ANYTHING for the AA Community.  Now, also tell me what the Republicans have done for the AA Community?

Answer, unfortunately is zero for both parties.  Both parties do not give a damn about anyone other than themselves.  They only care about what gets them elected.

That is why the political establishment don't like Trump, they didn't like Sanders, Cruze, etc.  They are pushing for a pathological Liar who is part of the establishment. 

 

[DogofWar1]

Answer isn't 0 for both.

It's more like 0 versus -50.

Note: I'm not conceding that Dems have done zero, but rather pointing out that even doing nothing is better than doing harm.

[Chew]

And here comes Trump.  he's figured out what nobody else has in the last 50 years....he knows how to save the black community.  Trump 2016

What have you hooligans got to lose?!

[Burgold]

13 minutes ago, Rskins06 said:

Please tell me HOW the Democratic Party has done ANYTHING for the AA Community.  Now, also tell me what the Republicans have done for the AA Community?

 

Well, I have seen many jobs programs, before and after school programs, children's health care initiatives, scholarships, grants, etc. that were D sponsored/initiated for starters. Quite a large number of these passed in spite of R opposition.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Burgold

[Predicto]

49 minutes ago, Rskins06 said:

That's the thing.  It is not as straightforward as you pretend it to be.  To say Democrats are basically righteous and pure and without flaw (not saying at all that is what you have said) and it is only because of the "Racist Republicans" is one sided and not open minded at all.  Here is what I truly believe, we can argue all day but you will find an EQUAL amount of racists in either party.  To pretend ONLY the RACIST Democrats switched over to republicans is not only factually incorrect, it is irresponsible to portray.

 

 

You are trying to turn the discussion into something else.   It's not very effective.

I'm not saying all Republicans are racists.  I'm not saying that all Democrats are not.  I'm not saying that people don't join parties for all sorts of reasons.  Maybe opposition to gun registration is your biggest issue - if so, you probably are going to vote GOP regardless of your views on civil rights and race.  

Nevertheless, the fact remains that the conservative Southern Democrat base that opposed civil rights back in 60s has shifted over time to become the conservative Southern Republican base of present day.  The socially liberal Northeastern/West Coast population that used to be called the Rockefeller Republicans and could deliver states like New York, New Jersey, all of New England, and California has become Democratic.   The Deep South was reliably Democratic for almost 100 years.  Now it is reliably Republican.   New England and California were reliably GOP for almost 100 years.  Now they are not.   

So when people try to say that "the Democrats are the ones who oppose civil rights" and "the GOP is the party that favors civil rights," it is a totally misleading thing to say, because the Democratic and Republican parties of today are completely different than the Democratic and Republican parties of 1964. 

The GOP made a conscious decision to appeal to Southerners whose hide was chapped by the civil rights movement.   It was called the Southern Strategy.  It began with Nixon, it was accelerated by Reagan's political guru Lee At-water, and it was very successful.    And no, it was not done by an open appeal to racism in most cases.   Lee At-water himself explained how they did it.  You grab that resentment that originally was openly racist and you turn it into a more class-based opposition to Washington DC and liberal elites (the ones that happened to push civil rights) and so on.  

"You start out in 1954 by saying, “n*gger n*gger n*igger” By 1968 you can't say “n*gger” — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it."  - those are Lee At-water's words.   

Conservative blogs can try to deny that this happened, but it only works if you live in their echo chamber.  

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Predicto