Vox: PayPal makes it official: North Carolina's anti-LGBTQ law will cost the state jobs

[elkabong82]

Crazy that the party that loves to reference the Constitution the most to preserve rights completely casts it aside when it comes to endorsing Christianity. TN state officials making the Bible the official book, NC and other Southern states using Christian-based "moral" guidance to single out and deny equal treatment to muslims and LGBT. How quickly we've forgotten that the Founding Fathers wanted religion and church separated because throughout the history of mankind religion has been used politically to oppress because fundamentally it is a club and clubs practice exclusion, especially to those they believe don't fit in.

[Burgold]

OK, so correct this atheist if he's wrong, but isn't the bottom line of the Bible that we should love one another while here, and in the end, God sorts us out?

We are not to judge, etc. etc.

We're on our own to make choices that send us to salvation or damnation when the time comes but between us, we should not try to judge those choices?

Now granted, there are some exceptions. I doubt, if he exists, that God intended us to allow rapists and murderers to just walk around while we smile at them, but as an overall rule of how we should treat one another, we are to love one another.

 

I'm dead serious, no smart-ass remark here.

Isn't that the bottom line of Jesus' message?

 

~Bang

In all candor, that's my understanding. Now, it's from a secular Jew's perspective so take it for what it's worth, but I thought the golden rule was a pretty important (and useful guideline) in Judeo/Christian philosophy.

 

There's wiggle room. There are religious matters where God figures it out and secular matters where Caesar gets his say, but I suspect that wiggle room is more about theft, murder, rape, etc.

 

Then again, who am I to judge

 

I believe people in general are just as racist as they've always been, they're just better at knowing who to hide it around. I feel the same way about homophobia.

I wouldn't go that far. I think society has improved, but like Jumbo said earlier it's not simple. While there are areas of improvement there are also pockets of regression and some that have remained the same. 

 

Overall though, I think we have made some pretty good strides in race relations in terms of friendship, business, and equality. There's still a long way to go though and the laws are far from obsolete.

Any therapist (or baker) that doesn't want to serve someone because of a personal bias should say they're too busy (or something like that) and not accepting clients.  Live by your convictions but don't rub other people's nose in them.

I think the "where" may also matter. I started with the presumption of a private practice therapist, but if the therapist is attached to a hospital, prison, or serves in a military branch I think I would hope they could swallow their disquiet and do their jobs to the best of their ability. They could internally recommend someone more suited, but they shouldn't reject someone just as that clerk shouldn't deny marriage licences because while the state approves... she personally doesn't.

[visionary]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3524063/Transgender-woman-Eva-Tiamat-Medusa-ears-nose-removed-dragon-lady.html

Transgender former banker, 55, has her ears and nose REMOVED to transform into a 'dragon lady' with scales, a forked tongue and a horned skull

[TheGoodBits]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3524063/Transgender-woman-Eva-Tiamat-Medusa-ears-nose-removed-dragon-lady.html

Great now we need dedicated dragon bathrooms too?

[Destino]

I'm not ok sharing a bathroom with dragons.

[twa]

OK, so correct this atheist if he's wrong, but isn't the bottom line of the Bible that we should love one another while here, and in the end, God sorts us out?

We are not to judge, etc. etc.

We're on our own to make choices that send us to salvation or damnation when the time comes but between us, we should not try to judge those choices?

Now granted, there are some exceptions. I doubt, if he exists, that God intended us to allow rapists and murderers to just walk around while we smile at them, but as an overall rule of how we should treat one another, we are to love one another.

 

I'm dead serious, no smart-ass remark here.

Isn't that the bottom line of Jesus' message?

 

~Bang

 

Loving others does not preclude judging choices....Jesus was rather insistent on the Way

 

of course that way is by choice

[grhqofb5]

I think the logical solution is that we should all go back to ****ting in the woods.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I'm not really opposed to this honestly. It is a private business. Mind you, I think a therapist who is so infused with hatred and bigotry that s/he can't cancel someone solely because they're gay ought to have their head's checked.

I had decided to step back from this thread since I made my argument and saw no reason to keep harping on it. But this grabbed my attention. You said "it is a private business" so does that mean you support other business discriminating also? Not trying to be a jerk, I'm honestly asking.

[Burgold]

I had decided to step back from this thread since I made my argument and saw no reason to keep harping on it. But this grabbed my attention. You said "it is a private business" so does that mean you support other business discriminating also? Not trying to be a jerk, I'm honestly asking.

It's tough. I don't support it, but I don't always reject it either.

 

For example, I remember reading about a bakery rejecting a commission when a couple wanted to buy a cake from them and asked them to decorate it is with a swaztika. I think that's definitely within the rights of the company. They shouldn't be compelled to accept every request or fill every order.

 

It gets grayer when it comes to a person. Should a bakery be able to refuse to sell its pastries to me solely because I'm Jewish? Should a restaurant be able to refuse to seat a potential patron solely because he's black? Should an airline have the ability to refuse to fly anyone with an Islamic sounding name? In all these cases, I think the answer is no. I side against the rights of the private business to discriminate. We also know that legally it has been decided in several of these cases that a business can not make these kinds of decisions too.

 

So, the question really comes down to not whether a private business can discriminate, but who are they allowed to discriminate against? Who's the protected class? 

 

I think one important question is that of harm. It will not cause the baker harm if I buy their cupcake or if they handle money I hand them. As someone partly raised by a Holocaust survivor, I can argue that being forced to make a neonazi cake would cause me harm. The message is a harmful one.

 

I think in general, I often support a person's rights over a corporation's, but that's a rule of thumb that's not true in every case.  

 

I don't know if this answers your question, but it's an attempt to.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Who's the protected class?

Anyone who has no control over their identity...race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, age (to an extent).

Religious beliefs...

Fan affiliation...more specifically, Redskins fans.

And ferrets. Ferrets are protected.

[Gamebreaker]

I'm not ok sharing a bathroom with dragons.

 

Bigot! 

[Major Harris]

So, what if they added another 3 feet to the partitions and doors in most restrooms so they go to the floor and allow for some privacy even in a mixed setting? Frame it so the gaps around the door edge is gone and no one can peep over..

Sounds like opportunity.

~Bang

Sounds like we've finally found a shovel ready project.

[Burgold]

Anyone who has no control over their identity...race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, age (to an extent).

Religious beliefs...

Fan affiliation...more specifically, Redskins fans.

And ferrets. Ferrets are protected.

Sexual orientation is the main (only) one people argue about these days although some are trying to throw religious protections out the window if you're Muslim.

 

Ferret rights need to be revisited. I'm sick of getting bumped off a plane or losing a scholarship because a dang ferret just shows up at random.

[Zguy28]

OK, so correct this atheist if he's wrong, but isn't the bottom line of the Bible that we should love one another while here, and in the end, God sorts us out?

We are not to judge, etc. etc.

We're on our own to make choices that send us to salvation or damnation when the time comes but between us, we should not try to judge those choices?

Now granted, there are some exceptions. I doubt, if he exists, that God intended us to allow rapists and murderers to just walk around while we smile at them, but as an overall rule of how we should treat one another, we are to love one another.

 

I'm dead serious, no smart-ass remark here.

Isn't that the bottom line of Jesus' message?

 

~Bang

The bottom line is to love God. The second most important thing is to love your neighbor, which is basically anybody, including enemies. The first will drive the second. But loving a person doesn't mean we agree with choices people make or how they choose to act on how they feel or identify. Tolerance used to necessitate the inclusion of disagreement. Now, not the case. Our culture has redefined tolerance.

 

Was reading a good article about this last night.

 

http://www.str.org/blog/why-the-new-definition-of-tolerance-is-dangerous#.VwedfkZi-PU

[skinsmarydu]

The bottom line is to love God. The second most important thing is to love your neighbor, which is basically anybody, including enemies. The first will drive the second. But loving a person doesn't mean we agree with choices people make or how they choose to act on how they feel or identify. Tolerance used to necessitate the inclusion of disagreement. Now, not the case. Our culture has redefined tolerance.

If I may quote my former boss, an older Persian who taught me a lot: Eat your breakfast. Share your lunch. Give your dinner to your enemy.

In our book, that means help those against you. Not just tolerate.

The rich have chosen to only help themselves. They complain about bad roads, public parks, but ***** about taxes. They can't even make the connection that 'their tax money' = 'better stuff'.

Somebody posted that verse last Sunday, btw.

[Zguy28]

If I may quote my former boss, an older Persian who taught me a lot: Eat your breakfast. Share your lunch. Give your dinner to your enemy.

In our book, that means help those against you. Not just tolerate.

The rich have chosen to only help themselves. They complain about bad roads, public parks, but ***** about taxes. They can't even make the connection that 'their tax money' = 'better stuff'.

Somebody posted that verse last Sunday, btw.

Would you help one of those rich people? Would you show love to the Koch brothers or to the owners of Halliburton? Would you give your dinner to Gov McCrory?

[Burgold]

Would you help one of those rich people? Would you show love to the Koch brothers or to the owners of Halliburton?

They do need help. Rarely do you hear anyone cry poverty more than billionaires! They demand endless tax breaks and permanent welfare support. They constantly cry about how they have to move their businesses overseas just to stay profitable. I mean how can you survive only making 45% net profit annually! The only answer is to cut the work force and demand government concessions!

[TheGreatBuzz]

It's tough. I don't support it, but I don't always reject it either.

 

 

I think you and I are a lot closer in opinion than you may expect.  I HATE the idea of someone refusing service because they don't like that you are jewish or some similar grounds.  My issue is where to draw the line though and I have decided that when in doubt, I believe the line should be drawn in the favor of a private business.  Now I could see setting a limit on the size of a business that could discriminate or declaring certain types of businesses too important to society.  But if a baker doesn't want to make a gay wedding cake, go to another baker.  And organize protests of that baker.  And if I am going to draw lines there, why stop there?  Why limit  someones free speech and not make a cake with a swastika?  I get that you feel it would be damaging to you because of your past but what about that persons rights?  But then if we start erring on the side of constitutional rights, why can a business refuse to let me carry a legal firearm? 

 

I agree that it is a very difficult subject and there is no perfect answer.  Someone will always be upset.  You and I seem to have the same conflictions on the subject.  We just come down on different places on the decisions.  I compare it to my view on abortion.  Personally, I am pro-life.  I don't like abortion.  But I don't think it is my place to legislate my morals onto someone else.  So legally I am pro-choice even though I am against abortion.  Some thing here.  I personally don't like discrimination, but it isn't my place to impose my beliefs on someone else.  It is my place though to go protest the **** out of them. 

[Zguy28]

They do need help. Rarely do you hear anyone cry poverty more than billionaires! They demand endless tax breaks and permanent welfare support. They constantly cry about how they have to move their businesses overseas just to stay profitable. I mean how can you survive only making 45% net profit annually! The only answer is to cut the work force and demand government concessions!

Like normal, you miss the point. If you're going to preach it, you gotta live it. Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

 

And yes, they do need help, but not the kind you reached for.

I think you and I are a lot closer in opinion than you may expect.  I HATE the idea of someone refusing service because they don't like that you are jewish or some similar grounds.  My issue is where to draw the line though and I have decided that when in doubt, I believe the line should be drawn in the favor of a private business.  Now I could see setting a limit on the size of a business that could discriminate or declaring certain types of businesses too important to society.  But if a baker doesn't want to make a gay wedding cake, go to another baker.  And organize protests of that baker.  And if I am going to draw lines there, why stop there?  Why limit  someones free speech and not make a cake with a swastika?  I get that you feel it would be damaging to you because of your past but what about that persons rights?  But then if we start erring on the side of constitutional rights, why can a business refuse to let me carry a legal firearm? 

 

I agree that it is a very difficult subject and there is no perfect answer.  Someone will always be upset.  You and I seem to have the same conflictions on the subject.  We just come down on different places on the decisions.  I compare it to my view on abortion.  Personally, I am pro-life.  I don't like abortion.  But I don't think it is my place to legislate my morals onto someone else.  So legally I am pro-choice even though I am against abortion.  Some thing here.  I personally don't like discrimination, but it isn't my place to impose my beliefs on someone else.  It is my place though to go protest the **** out of them. 

Was discussing this topic last night on another venue. What if a Jewish baker was asked to bake a neo-nazi cake? Or photograph a neo-nazi wedding? Those are unlikely because I doubt they would want a Jew at their event, but same premise. Its subjective isn't it?

 

What if Burgold decides to sell ad space in the back panel of a new book or something like that, and Donald Trump wants to buy it?

[TheGreatBuzz]

Like normal, you miss the point. If you're going to preach it, you gotta live it. Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

 

And yes, they do need help, but not the kind you reached for.

Was discussing this topic last night on another venue. What if a Jewish baker was asked to bake a neo-nazi cake? Or photograph a neo-nazi wedding? Those are unlikely because I doubt they would want a Jew at their event, but same premise. Its subjective isn't it?

 

What if Burgold decides to sell ad space in the back panel of a new book or something like that, and Donald Trump wants to buy it?

More good examples of what makes me so conflicted.  But I just choose to come down to a different postion than most other people. 

[The 12th Commandment]

And yes, they do need help, but not the kind you reached for.

All due respect, and I give you credit for not recognizing it (and for being a good guy) but that smug right there really puts me off.  In Hollywood on an episode of Touched by an Angel that would work.  But not in Kansas. At least in my experience.

[Burgold]

Was discussing this topic last night on another venue. What if a Jewish baker was asked to bake a neo-nazi cake? Or photograph a neo-nazi wedding? Those are unlikely because I doubt they would want a Jew at their event, but same premise. Its subjective isn't it?

 

What if Burgold decides to sell ad space in the back panel of a new book or something like that, and Donald Trump wants to buy it?

I remember discussing this with my agent once. She was asking if what degree of changes I was willing to make to sell the book to a publisher. I said (and meant) I am willing to sell you my finger, but not my soul. In other words, I'd probably take Trump's money and boot the neonazis out of my bakery.

[Zguy28]

All due respect, and I give you credit for not recognizing it (and for being a good guy) but that smug right there really puts me off.  In Hollywood on an episode of Touched by an Angel that would work.  But not in Kansas.

I'm sorry, what's smug about it? Burgold assumed help meant money. I did not. Wasn't intended to sound that way.

[pjfootballer]

I think the logical solution is that we should all go back to ****ting in the woods.

 

Funny post.

 

But in all seriousness, I can remember a time when there were no public resterooms in most stores.  It had to be an "emergency" for you to use their bathroom that was for employees only.  I can remember most restaurants had resterooms, but they were usually single and small. 

 

Hope we don't get to that point again.

 

When my ex-wife and I went to Peru, it was that way.  Hardly any bathrooms, so you had to time things right.  And the one's that were available were sometimes pay bathrooms.

[Zguy28]

I remember discussing this with my agent once. She was asking if what degree of changes I was willing to make to sell the book to a publisher. I said (and meant) I am willing to sell you my finger, but not my soul. In other words, I'd probably take Trump's money and boot the neonazis out of my bakery.

IF they claimed their neo-naziism was part of their religion, as so-called "Christian militia" do (I hate even writing that btw), would you be able to? Isn't that then discimination? This is all just conjecture for discussion sake btw.

 

(I'm waiting for the ventual response that religion shouldn't be a protected class from somebody)

More good examples of what makes me so conflicted.  But I just choose to come down to a different postion than most other people. 

But you believe the mainstream progressive is wrong, and how dare you disagree. But since you did, now therefore they have the right to shut you up.