The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

[EBoz]

6 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

Why bring up the law if it doesn't matter? Laws can be changed. If you don't like an action then talk about that instead of bringing up laws.

Again, as long as there is ONE homeless vet on the street, I do not feel sorry for anyone trying to cross our border illegally. Trump isn’t having it and neither am I. Also, I have brought up vets in my last 2 posts and you have yet to acknowledge it in any way. 

Edited July 6, 2018 by EBoz

[Cooked Crack]

3 minutes ago, EBoz said:

Again, as long as there is ONE homeless vet on the street, I do not feel sorry for anyone trying to cross our border illegally. Trump isn’t having it and neither am I. Also, I have brought up vets in my last 2 posts and you have yet to acknowledge it in any way. 

You're talking about vets and I'm talking about immigrants. If you were talking about immigrants who are vets then I'd engage.

 

[EBoz]

Just now, Cooked Crack said:

You're talking about vets and I'm talking about immigrants. If you were talking about immigrants who are vets then I'd engage.

I’m talking about people crossing our border illegally. Or at least attempting to. I’m not sure what your dog is in this fight. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Speaking of immigrants and vets.

 

https://apnews.com/38334c4d061e493fb108bd975b5a1a5d

[Cooked Crack]

2 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Speaking of immigrants and vets.

 

https://apnews.com/38334c4d061e493fb108bd975b5a1a5d

He already quoted this but overlooked it

[EBoz]

2 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Speaking of immigrants and vets.

 

https://apnews.com/38334c4d061e493fb108bd975b5a1a5d

Wow!!! 40 cases? Incredible! I have that many true homeless vets living in my city alone. True veterans.

1 minute ago, Cooked Crack said:

He already quoted this but overlooked it

I didn’t overlook anything. I was referring to the child that was separated from his parents and had lice. No mistake on my part. 

[twa]

10 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Speaking of immigrants and vets.

 

https://apnews.com/38334c4d061e493fb108bd975b5a1a5d

 

how long has that been going on?...the lawyer references fighting these cases for years.

 

 

[visionary]

46 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

 If you were to go to another country without documentation and expected to stay,  you would be detained and sent right back home. 

Not necessarily.  There are areas between countries where borders do not really exist and other regions where people live nomadically between countries.  There are countries that take in hundreds of thousands (or much more) of refugees from neighboring countries or from far away nations due to war or other forms of instability.  Also borders are constantly changing in some places due to wars and creeping border expansion, and in other areas borders can be undefined or a source of debate, so it can be very confusing.  

 

But people who come in illegally or without documentation are just one aspect of immigration, along with other kinds of 'illegal immigration' and 'legal immigration' that are under attack.'

Edited July 6, 2018 by visionary

[EBoz]

3 minutes ago, visionary said:

Not necessarily.  There are areas between countries where borders do not really exist and other regions where people live nomadically between countries.  There are countries that take in hundreds of thousands (or much more) of refugees from neighboring countries or from far away nations due to war or other forms of instability.  Also borders are constantly changing in some places due to wars and creeping border expansion, and in other areas borders can be undefined or a source of debate, so it can be very confusing.  

 

But people who come in illegally or without documentation are just one aspect of immigration, along with other kinds of 'illegal immigration' and 'legal immigration' that are under attack.'

Stop it. The border of our country is clear. Come legally or don’t cry when you are detained. What is so difficult to understand?

[TheGreatBuzz]

23 minutes ago, EBoz said:

Wow!!! 40 cases? Incredible! I have that many true homeless vets living in my city alone. True veterans.

I didn’t overlook anything. I was referring to the child that was separated from his parents and had lice. No mistake on my part. 

So do you care about the vets who are about to be deported?  Doesn't matter how many.  One should be too many.  

 

 

[visionary]

Legal, documented, vetted immigrants, unwanted. 

 

Quote

“I feel like it’s a really dark moment, so fundamentally un-American,” said Barbara Strack, who served as chief of the Department of Homeland Security’s refugee-affairs division for the Trump administration until January.

 

Strack and other ex-officials say they’re worried about a downward spiral in the United States’ ability to admit vulnerable people fleeing dire conditions of war, extreme poverty, persecution, or natural disaster. Lowered admissions ceilings can lead to the U.S. cutting off resources for resettling refugees, which can in turn prompt anti-refugee officials to cite the diminished capacity for lowering the ceilings further—sparking a structural degeneration in infrastructure for admitting refugees that threatens to outlive the Trump administration.  

 

“We’ve completely abandoned leadership [on refugees] and a commitment to their protection at a time when world needs couldn’t be higher,” Strack added. “That’s not a good national security posture. There’s a fundamental notion of otherness for refugees, as opposed to saying ‘There but for the grace of God go I.’”

 

Quote

During internal debates, three knowledgeable current and former officials say, Miller and his allies pushed for even lower numbers on refugee admissions—as low as 15,000 refugees. To push back, career officials responsible for refugee vetting and admissions used Trump’s stated 50,000 quota as an anchor and ended up adopting 45,000 as the highest amount possible.

 

They described a chaotic process that angered key legislators of both parties with belated notification to Capitol Hill. “It is simply unacceptable to read in the press that the administration had reached its decision on the refugee cap before the mandated meeting with Congress had even been scheduled,” Sens. Chuck Grassley and Dianne Feinstein said in a joint Sept. 27 statement.

 

But the 45,000 ceiling was just that: a ceiling. For the past several months, it’s been clear that the actual total admissions will fall closer to the floor. State Department refugee data extrapolated to the end of September, when the fiscal year turns over, indicate that the U.S. will actually admit something like 20,000 to 21,000 refugees.

 

I remember not long ago fellow Republicans criticizing Obama for not admitting enough refugees.  

Edited July 6, 2018 by visionary

[EBoz]

7 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

So do you care about the vets who are about to be deported?  Doesn't matter how many.  One should be too many.  

 

 

IF they are deported there is a reason behind it. Not just because your last name is Sanchez or Gonzalez. I served for 29 years and I know you serve as well so let’s be smart about this. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, EBoz said:

IF they are deported there is a reason behind it. Not just because your last name is Sanchez or Gonzalez. I served for 29 years and I know you serve as well so let’s be smart about this. 

Just wondering because you seem so worried about vet care, i was wondering how you felt about vets being deported.  So you are cool with say, a silver star recipient being deported if they came here illegally 50 years earlier?

[EBoz]

5 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Just wondering because you seem so worried about vet care, i was wondering how you felt about vets being deported.  So you are cool with say, a silver star recipient being deported if they came here illegally 50 years earlier?

What I’m saying is that there is no chance a silver star recipient is being deported. I’m also saying that there are MANY vets on the streets and that should be fixed before we worry about people coming across our border illegally and then acting like they are being treated unfairly when they are detained in accordance with the law. 

Edited July 6, 2018 by EBoz

[TheGreatBuzz]

3 minutes ago, EBoz said:

What I’m saying is that there is no chance a silver star recipient is being deported.

 I was not aware of that portion of the law. Can you please show me where deportation of veterans is based on the awards they received? And also what is the minimum level of award that keeps you from being deported?

[skinny21]

7 minutes ago, EBoz said:

What I’m saying is that there is no chance a siver star recipient is being deported. I’m also saying that there are MANY vets on the streets and that should be fixed before we worry about people coming across our border illegally and then acting like they are being treated unfairly when they are detained in accordance with the law. 

I’m not sure I get this stance exactly.  You seem to be saying only focus on one issue at a time.  I mean, would you say school kids getting murdered is more important than homeless vets?  Assuming the answer is yes, does that mean don’t worry about those vets until not a single child is murdered in their school?

Edited July 6, 2018 by skinny21

[EBoz]

4 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 I was not aware of that portion of the law. Can you please show me where deportation of veterans is based on the awards they received? And also what is the minimum level of award that keeps you from being deported?

I’m not saying it’s a law. I’m saying no silver star recipient has been deported. 

3 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I’m not sure I get this stance exactly.  You seem to be saying only focus on one issue at a time.  I mean, would you say school kids getting murdered is more important than homeless vets?  Assumption by the answer is yes, does that mean don’t worry about those vets until not a single child is murdered in their school?

I’m saying that the people who are here legally deserve every right before someone who is here illegally. Not sure where the school kids came from. 

[Cooked Crack]

Got to give it MS 13 for their work ethics.

[Bozo the kKklown]

6 hours ago, visionary said:

Is that the only article so far making the claim?  I'm a little reluctant to believe it yet...though I'm sure the desire from the administration is there.

 

6 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I read the article and it seems short on details.  What grounds are they using to attempt to strip them?  We have a history of stripping people of citizenship when it was found out they were Nazi's that committed war crimes so it isn't exactly without precedent.  Now I assume this administration isn't using that high bar and honestly, are probably doing it for little more than the color of their skin.  But you need to give me some details before I get up in arms

google can be a friend here.

[Corcaigh]

28 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

 

 

That's the civility he's looking for?

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, EBoz said:

I’m saying that the people who are here legally deserve every right before someone who is here illegally. Not sure where the school kids came from. 

Thanks for responding.  Unfortunately, that didn’t quite clear things up for me.  

 

As for the school kids comment, I thought it was pretty straightforward...

 

You said:

I’m also saying that there are MANY vets on the streets and that should be fixed before we worry about people coming across our border illegally and then acting like they are being treated unfairly when they are detained in accordance with the law. 

 

 

The implication is - don’t worry about either the detained immigrants or the laws pertaining to them until the homeless veteran problem is 100% fixed.  This, in turn, implies that the government can only focus on one issue at a time, and seems to suggest that any matter deemed more pressing than homeless vets (such as murdered school children) needs to be 100% dealt before we can work toward fixing the homeless problem.  

 

Or, perhaps you just meant socially we should be more concerned with homeless vets than illegal immigrants.  I can sort of see your point there, except again, that would be implying we can only focus on one issue at a time and must completely fix each problem (in order of priority) before we can worry about the next. 

 

Either way, this seemed a surprising stance, hence my wanting clarification.  

 

To elaborate on the school kids piece, I was giving an example of something we’d probably all agree is a more important issue than homeless vets (though both are terrible and sad).  Do we ignore the homeless veteran problem until the more pressing issue is 100% solved/fixed?

 

Sorry for the confusion.  

Edited July 6, 2018 by skinny21

[JCB]

Even if we concede that there’s a zero sum game where it’s either vets or immigrants (there’s not), and even if you agree with this administration’s reckless approach to immigration (you shouldn’t), there is NO MORAL UNIVERSE in which it’s okay to treat a 14 month old kid like that.

 

We either back up all of our self-congratulatory talk about being a nation of laws and decency, or we don’t. It’s obvious where these ghouls stand, pretending they’re Christian patriots while being neither. Anyone who can be so cavalier about kids like this shows their character too. People with this attitude don’t want the 1950s back; they want the 1850s back.

[LD0506]

8 hours ago, JCB said:

People with this attitude don’t want the 1950s back; they want the 1850s back.

 

Funny you should say that, I've been reading a great deal on that period lately. It mirrors in so many ways just what we are dealing with today.

 

Just a few landmarks in that.......

 

On BBC this morning

Quote

Asylum seekers and economic migrants are flocking to the United States.

Xenophobes warn these foreigners will fuel crime, drive down wages and destroy the nation.

As nativism spreads like a prairie fire, an anti-immigrant president from New York rises to power. He has a proclivity for conspiracy theories and appoints his daughter to a key White House role.

But the year isn't 2016.

It's 1850.

And it's not Donald Trump.

It's Millard Fillmore - whose sheer anonymity has made him an in-joke among presidential history fans.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44688337

 

Google the Know Nothings and their history for instance

 

Abraham Lincoln in a private letter to Joshua Speed written August 24, 1855

Quote

I am not a Know-Nothing – that is certain. How could I be? How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that 'all men are created equal.' We now practically read it 'all men are created equal, except negroes.' When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equals, except negroes and foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to that I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy

 

The rising tensions and social distortions of the 1850s are well documented (Gawd I love me some internet as reference source) and the records of Senate confrontations for instance echo the coming storm. Things brewed for decades and were only blown away by the Civil War.

 

We have set ourselves on that same path again.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

NM

Edited July 6, 2018 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

27 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

We have set ourselves on that same path again.