B&G Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) We wouldn’t be in this mess if there was no illegal immigration. It is against the law to enter this country illegally. If you break immigration law, you are a criminal and are subject to confinement/fines or both. If you are confined for breaking the law, you will be separated from your children, just as unlawful American citizens have always been. Regrettable but undeniable. Solutions: 1). Stop illegal immigration cold OR 2). Change the immigration laws to suit your point of view. Do this with your voice and vote OR 3. Indemnify our government officials from prosecution for violating their oaths so they can ignore laws on the book and forego upholding them. Liberals always want to do what feels right to them even if is against the law. Conservatives want the law to be obeyed. Feelers vs Thinkers. Simple, huh? To understand the workings of American politics, you have to understand this fundamental law: Conservatives think liberals are stupid. Liberals think conservatives are evil.” ― Charles Krauthammer, Things That Matter: Three Decades of Passions, Pastimes, and Politics Edited June 24, 2018 by B&G 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 24, 2018 Author Share Posted June 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, B&G said: We wouldn’t be in this mess if there was no illegal immigration. It is against the law to enter this country illegally. If you break immigration law, you are a criminal and are subject to confinement/fines or both. If you are confined for breaking the law, you will be separated from your children, just as unlawful American citizens have always been. Regrettable but undeniable. Overly simplistic and dumb. Not to mention, for the umpteenth time, seeking asylum is not illegal. Many of those who had their children separated for them had legally and properly asked for asylum. That means in arresting them and separating them from their children it may very well be the government that is the lawbreaker or at minimum the treaty breaker. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 did they have trouble finding our border crossings? perhaps more signage would help. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 12 minutes ago, B&G said: We wouldn’t be in this mess if there was no illegal immigration. It is against the law to enter this country illegally. If you break immigration law, you are a criminal and are subject to confinement/fines or both. If you are confined for breaking the law, you will be separated from your children, just as unlawful American citizens have always been. Regrettable but undeniable. Solutions: 1). Don’t break U.S. immigration law OR 2). Change the immigration laws to suit your point of view. Do this with your voice and vote OR 3. Indemnify our government officials from prosecution for violating their oaths so they can ignore laws on the book and forego upholding them. Liberals always want to do what feels right to them even if is against the law. Conservatives want the law to be obeyed. Feelers vs Thinkers. Simple, huh? To understand the workings of American politics, you have to understand this fundamental law: Conservatives think liberals are stupid. Liberals think conservatives are evil.” ― Charles Krauthammer, Things That Matter: Three Decades of Passions, Pastimes, and Politics Except we have right now a vicious war on immigration by this administration and others who once pretended to be only against 'illegal' immigration. Anti-refugee, anti-visa, anti-green card, stripping status from various groups and lusting after their deportation despite them living in this country for years as productive members of society. Not to mention a lot of folks on the right often tend to have a weird perception of how illegal immigration works (and 'illegal immigrants') and assume everyone comes in across the border illegally (among other huge misconceptions) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) His self promotion is a bit grating, but hopefully he gets good results and doesn't make things worse. Edited June 24, 2018 by visionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 how much have visa totals declined? how much has refugee numbers? I do admit I am more understanding of those we allowed in that have overstayed than those skipping any screening or record(which is what border jumpers are doing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 51 minutes ago, B&G said: If you are confined for breaking the law, you will be separated from your children, just as unlawful American citizens have always been. Regrettable but undeniable. Other than in the context of Trump immigration policy, how many cases are you aware of where a person arrested for misdemeanor was forcibly separated from their children for a prolonged period with no access to agency help to arrange for orderly transfer of custody over their children? I can't seem to find any examples, but maybe you'll have better luck. At least before you start saying we do this to our citizens too (I sincerely hope that such is not the case). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) Obvious statement is obvious: Edited June 24, 2018 by DogofWar1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, bearrock said: Other than in the context of Trump immigration policy, how many cases are you aware of where a person arrested for misdemeanor was forcibly separated from their children for a prolonged period with no access to agency help to arrange for orderly transfer of custody over their children? I can't seem to find any examples, but maybe you'll have better luck. At least before you start saying we do this to our citizens too (I sincerely hope that such is not the case). there is the obvious difference of being a citizen or legal visitor vs a border jumper. the DHS arranges a orderly transfer to HHS. everyone I know that was arrested with their kids had the children turned over to the agencies for placement . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 18 minutes ago, twa said: there is the obvious difference of being a citizen or legal visitor vs a border jumper. the DHS arranges a orderly transfer to HHS. everyone I know that was arrested with their kids had the children turned over to the agencies for placement . As opposed to allowing the misdemeanor arrestee to call up a relative or friend to pick up the kids? Hasn't been my observation, but okay. How many people do you know that was arrested with kids? As for illegal crosser v citizen or legally present, the distinction doesn't matter if you are trying to justify family separation by saying we do this to our citizens as well. So do we do this to our citizens or should we allow this because they are illegal crossers and not deserving of the same type of treatment? There's also a consideration that illegal crossers are being detained till trial and conviction. How many cases are you aware of where a person charged with a misdemeanor with a kid to take care of is denied bail until trial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 (edited) Looks like the mango Mussolini use to hire illegal immigrants and treated them like he did his American workers (FYI..like ****). http://www.newsweek.com/trump-undocumented-immigrants-tower-demolish-724845 Quote President Donald Trump hired hundreds of undocumented Polish immigrants to demolish a New York City building in 1980 and paid them as little as $4 an hour without providing proper safety equipment to do the job, court documents show. The workers and their contractor, William Kaszycki of Kaszycki & Sons, sued Trump for unfair labor practices in 1983. After litigation dragged on for 15 years, Trump ultimately paid $1.375 million to settle the case. Edited June 25, 2018 by The Evil Genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 18 minutes ago, bearrock said: How many cases are you aware of where a person charged with a misdemeanor with a kid to take care of is denied bail until trial? Just pointing out that I have been known to speculate that I really do not get the notion of giving illegal immigrants to have bail at all. (at least, the ones I think of. I'm aware that they aren't all the same) I mean, it sure seems to me that anybody who has already demonstrated the ability to enter our country, show up in a strange town (in a strange country), and obtain a fake identity, a job, and a place to stay under that fake name, sure seems to me to fit the profile of "flight risk". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B&G Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Thousands of American citizens are convicted of misdemeanors every year. Some of those are incarcerated. Many of those have children and are so separated from them. In cases where the children have no one to take care of them, the court appoints someone to do so. Virtually the same process is now in place at the border for those foreign national who have broken our immigration laws. In no way am I advocating for separation of families in these cases. On the contrary, I am merely pointing out that the process for both citizen and alien are much the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Well I'm not sure about the G but it seems like the B stands for bull****.......... Even if and when someone gets locked up for a misdemeanor (uncommon at best) they may not get to SEE their kids but it's hardly the same as pulling infants away from crying mothers and squirreling them off under the cover of darkness to another state, lying about their transport and then, woopsie!, forgetting to fill out the paperwork so they can't be found. This **** is evil Making lameass excuses to rationalize this **** is evil-lite. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 16 minutes ago, Larry said: Just pointing out that I have been known to speculate that I really do not get the notion of giving illegal immigrants to have bail at all. (at least, the ones I think of. I'm aware that they aren't all the same) I mean, it sure seems to me that anybody who has already demonstrated the ability to enter our country, show up in a strange town (in a strange country), and obtain a fake identity, a job, and a place to stay under that fake name, sure seems to me to fit the profile of "flight risk". I'm not advocating for granting bail to illegal crossers. But the very fact that they are not good candidates for bail makes arresting and charging every illegal crossers with a crime as opposed to cataloguing first offenders and releasing back south of the border that much more of an issue. I'm pointing out that it is a poor comparison to misdemeanor arrestees in US because first, they are getting treated worse than us residents arrested on misdemeanor charges. Second, us residents charged with misdemeanor would be released shortly after booking or at least within a few days after arraignment. 6 minutes ago, B&G said: Thousands of American citizens are convicted of misdemeanors every year. Some of those are incarcerated. Many of those have children and are so separated from them. In cases where the children have no one to take care of them, the court appoints someone to do so. Virtually the same process is now in place at the border for those foreign national who have broken our immigration laws. In no way am I advocating for separation of families in these cases. On the contrary, I am merely pointing out that the process for both citizen and alien are much the same. They are not being separated after conviction (there would be no reason to separate as first time crossers would not get additional jail time). This is upon arrest. Most, I dare say all, misdemeanor arrestees would be given the opportunity to have a family or friend pick up the kids, not have their kids whisked away to a detention center under the auspices of a bath. Even after conviction, social services would work with you to arrange for kinship placement or guardianship and work towards reunification after any jail time (unless inappropriate for other reasons). Where both parents are convicted (even in felony cases) judges will often allow parents to alternate jail time. Do people really think that when parents are arrested in the US, kids get whisked off to some detention center for weeks on end? Just how ****ed up do you think the justice system is anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, bearrock said: They are not being separated after conviction (there would be no reason to separate as first time crossers would not get additional jail time). This is upon arrest. Most, I dare say all, misdemeanor arrestees would be given the opportunity to have a family or friend pick up the kids, not have their kids whisked away to a detention center under the auspices of a bath. Even after conviction, social services would work with you to arrange for kinship placement or guardianship and work towards reunification after any jail time (unless inappropriate for other reasons). Where both parents are convicted (even in felony cases) judges will often allow parents to alternate jail time. Do people really think that when parents are arrested in the US, kids get whisked off to some detention center for weeks on end? Just how ****ed up do you think the justice system is anyway? I'm also pretty certain that the typical American arrested for a misdemeanor doesn't have the government wisk his kid away to an undisclosed location, and then intentionally lose the records of where the kid went. For the specific, stated, purpose of keeping them people from committing misdemeanors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 56 minutes ago, bearrock said: As opposed to allowing the misdemeanor arrestee to call up a relative or friend to pick up the kids? Hasn't been my observation, but okay. How many people do you know that was arrested with kids? As for illegal crosser v citizen or legally present, the distinction doesn't matter if you are trying to justify family separation by saying we do this to our citizens as well. So do we do this to our citizens or should we allow this because they are illegal crossers and not deserving of the same type of treatment? There's also a consideration that illegal crossers are being detained till trial and conviction. How many cases are you aware of where a person charged with a misdemeanor with a kid to take care of is denied bail until trial? HHS does that, naturally it is a bit more involved and takes longer since they are not residents and in our ID system. I've known far more than I am comfortable with arrested while with kids here these parents actions alone would be considered endangerment if they were residents they can get out of detainment by agreeing to self deport. The normal conditions required for bail preclude doing so for border jumpers.(I don't think I need to list them for you) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 hour ago, The Evil Genius said: Looks like the mango Mussolini use to hire illegal immigrants and treated them like he did his American workers (FYI..like ****). http://www.newsweek.com/trump-undocumented-immigrants-tower-demolish-724845 These workers were employed by the contractor not Trump? Not my job or his to screen a contractor's workers(though I think it a good idea) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, twa said: These workers were employed by the contractor not Trump? Not my job or his to screen a contractor's workers(though I think it a good idea) Article seems to indicate that Trump knew of the workers' illegal status and used it to threaten deportation, according to the workers' lawyer. Federal judge ruled that Trump was the one that employed the workers. I don't have a hard time believing that Trump hired some illegal aliens to do the work thinking he could get them to do it on the cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 minute ago, bearrock said: Article seems to indicate that Trump knew of the workers' illegal status and used it to threaten deportation, according to the workers' lawyer. Federal judge ruled that Trump was the one that employed the workers. I don't have a hard time believing that Trump hired some illegal aliens to do the work thinking he could get them to do it on the cheap. I'm too lazy to dig into the case much, but a quick scan indicates it is not using employer in the standard sense. https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/974/270/437386/ I concur with the last, but even he is not stupid enough not to use a contractor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Aerial views of an immigrant children camp in Texas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 This is quite possibly the least American thing imaginable. A person seeking asylum, a legitimate request that is ultimately evaluated by a judge, having to choose between their children and a chance at asylum. "Give me whites from Europe, **** the rest." - The New NEW Colossus 3 hours ago, B&G said: Liberals always want to do what feels right to them even if is against the law. Conservatives want the law to be obeyed. Feelers vs Thinkers. Simple, huh? Quick question. What is the economic impact of immigration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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