TradeTheBeal! Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Responding to Beal's Scalia post: Where is that line drawn though? I believe Scalia was saying the 2nd didn't give me permission to have heat seeking missles and a .50 cal machine gun. Or to carry my personal weapon in the White House. Others believe it means the people shouldn't be allowed to have anything more than an antique black powder rifle. "Heat seeking missiles"? Sigh...you're not even trying. The things that can and should be done have been discussed at length and all fit very comfortably within the confines of Scalias interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 "Heat seeking missiles"? Sigh...you're not even trying. The things that can and should be done have been discussed at length and all fit very comfortably within the confines of Scalias interpretation. I meant more than just that. I was using it as an example to make my point. Would you prefer I list every single item that I believe Scalia was referring too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) Dbl post Edited June 23, 2016 by twa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Breaking News: Mass shooting around Frankfurt, Germany as we speak. Police say between 20 and 50 injured. Gunman barricaded himself inside a movie theatre and opened fire. He had a gun and an ammunition belt. Details coming... Not sure what this has to do with expanding background checks in the US. Seems like a good post for the terrorism thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btfoom Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Someone fill me in why the Republicans don't want to put their vote on the record regarding Gun Control? They're all pretty vocal about it. Not sure what the difference is. The same reason the Democrats don't want to vote on it - politics. This ENTIRE issue is about politics and votes. If the Democrats (and many here on this thread) really cared about saving lives, they would be up in arms with what is going on in cities like Chicago, Baltimore, LA, Detroit, and lately NYC. Murder rates with guns there are off the charts, and they all have very restrictive gun control methods. Here's a law, commit a crime with a gun, get 10 years period? How about repealing the hand gun laws there and let honest citizens get guns to defend themselves (the criminals already have them)? Nothing proposed by the Dems would have (a) prevented the mass shootings in the past several years that they love to jump on for political reasons or ( prevent the thousands of deaths every year in the cities listed above. Those are the facts, not the drama/politics of gun control. Not sure what this has to do with expanding background checks in the US. Seems like a good post for the terrorism thread. Sure you do, you're a bright guy. Gun control over there is way beyond what is being proposed by the Dems. Doesn't matter - criminals will get guns, ordinary citizens will not. More laws just turn law abiding citizens into criminals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Not sure what this has to do with expanding background checks in the US. Seems like a good post for the terrorism thread. Germany was used as a example of stricter gun laws working just a few posts ago 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Not sure what this has to do with expanding background checks in the US. Seems like a good post for the terrorism thread. There's gleeful joying by American gun nuts all over social media right now. Few things please them more than gun violence in Europe which somehow justifies the gun violence epidemic in the US in their sick twisted minds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I meant more than just that. I was using it as an example to make my point. Would you prefer I list every single item that I believe Scalia was referring too? Its just indicative of a desire to take a very reasoned, moderate concept....as presented by Scalia...and immediately stretch it out to something completely illogical. Heat-seeking missiles, guns in the White House, etc. A couple of points for you to consider. Let's see if we can avoid mentioning bazookas in maternity wards! 1. The NRA doesn't care about the Constitution. They are a for-profit, propaganda organization designed to increase the profitability of weapons manufacturers by any means necessary. 2. The US has no "gun control"...none. Anyone can, quite literally, make contact on the Internet/meet a guy in a Wal-mart parking lot/order a kit online and possess a military-grade automatic war weapon with no oversight whatsoever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperFi Skins Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Not sure what this has to do with expanding background checks in the US. Seems like a good post for the terrorism thread. Truthfully, only posted it here because I didn't know where else to put it. I ended up just starting a new thread. Wasn't looking to get in to the politics of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 There's gleeful joying by American gun nuts all over social media right now. Few things please them more than gun violence in Europe which somehow justifies the gun violence epidemic in the US in their sick twisted minds. Of course, this kind of violence barely even registers here in the states. 20+ school kids dead and we do absolutely nothing. Germany will turn this case inside-out, determine a proper course to prevent a reoccurrence and act accordingly...knowing full well that no course of action is absolutely perfect. They certainly won't settle for complete and total inaction. Germany was used as a example of stricter gun laws working just a few posts ago They do work. Germany has far, far less gun violence per capita than the US. But you knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) Germany was used as a example of stricter gun laws working just a few posts ago It mostly has. Between 2000 and 2014, Germany had 6 mass shootings to the US' 133. Germany has approximately 1/4th the population of Germany, so controlling for population, Germany still had 5.5 times as many mass shootings as the US. Further, Germany's mass shooting fatality rate was 1/3rd of the US' per 100,000 people. This shooting is sad and terrible. It also does not change the fact that Germany has been much safer, and is still much safer, than the US, in regards to mass shootings. Germany certainly has stricter laws, definitely, but there are still plenty of guns around, it is estimated there are about 45 million guns in Germany. They are not not-present. Indeed, the fact that gun ownership is still pretty widespread in Germany AND they've had success should probably serve as something of a blueprint for us, with changes to account for our Constitution. In light of this new shooting, Germany will likely move to fill in the gaps that allowed it, and we would do well to consider whatever reform comes to pass from them, while obviously making sure it works/fits within our Constitutional framework. Edited June 23, 2016 by DogofWar1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 ... and it looks like no one else was killed in that German attack... details will come out,and then we can judge and debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Its just indicative of a desire to take a very reasoned, moderate concept....as presented by Scalia...and immediately stretch it out to something completely illogical. Heat-seeking missiles, guns in the White House, etc. A couple of points for you to consider. Let's see if we can avoid mentioning bazookas in maternity wards! 1. The NRA doesn't care about the Constitution. They are a for-profit, propaganda organization designed to increase the profitability of weapons manufacturers by any means necessary. 2. The US has no "gun control"...none. Anyone can, quite literally, make contact on the Internet/meet a guy in a Wal-mart parking lot/order a kit online and possess a military-grade automatic war weapon with no oversight whatsoever. After considering your points I have determine: 1) True 2) False I have never hid my disdain for the NRA. You will get no argument from me about them being probably one of the worst organizations on the planet. As to point 2, prove it. Show me a link where I can get an automatic war weapon that easily. That would be highly illegal. In the rare chance you are able to prove this, I guarantee I will immediately forward that information to the ATF and FBI so they can stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 So now there's been a mass shooting in Germany, 25 people injured. There's a thread on it, sounds like no one dead, but we know early reports are notoriously inaccurate. The reason I bring it up, is because my first thought was to look into Germany's gun laws. Now - I want to say up front - I personally think gun laws should be discussed by viewing the entire range of gun issues. Murders/deaths and general gun crime. Not just from the "mass shooting" view. So here's wikipedi (lol wikipedia) on Germany's gun laws. Gun legislation in Germany is considered among the strictest gun control in the world. ... A firearms ownership license (Waffenbesitzkarte or WBK) or an entry to an existing WBK is mandatory for each weapon purchased. It entitles owners to purchase firearms and handle them on their own property and any private property with property owner consent. On public premises, a licensed firearm must be transported unloaded and in a stable, fully enclosing, locked container. A weapons ownership license does not entitle the owner to shoot the weapon or carry it on public premises without the prescribed container. Owners must obtain mandatory insurance and a means to securely store the weapon on their premises (a weapons locker). Blanket ownership licenses are issued to arms dealers, firearms experts and – with limitations – to collectors. Today, there are ca. four million legal private gun owners.[15] A number of criteria must be met before a firearms ownership license is issued: age of majority (18 years) (§ 4 WaffG) trustworthiness (§ 5 WaffG) personal adequacy (§ 6 WaffG) expert knowledge (§ 7 WaffG) and necessity (§ 8 WaffG) Inheritors of legal firearms can obtain a permit without having to demonstrate expert knowledge or necessity, but without them, the firearm has to be blocked by an arms dealer (§ 20 WaffG) and an inheritor's license does not include the right to acquire or handle ammunition. Persons who are convicted felons have a record of mental disorder or are deemed unreliable (which includes people with drug or alcohol addiction histories and known violent or aggressive persons) are barred from obtaining a firearms ownership license. ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_legislation_in_Germany#Current_laws Sounds like a lot of suggestions that have been thrown around. I'm not a "if it doesn't solve the problem 100% then it's not worth doing" person, so I don't want this to come across that way. I'm throwing it all out there for discussion. They require a display of expert knowledge. They check mental health, criminal record, and the various things "deem unreliable" means. They require a license to own, and even then you cannot carry in public without having it completely locked up (and unusable, all things considered.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 That's why us not-crazy gun rights people are usually fine with the proposals regarding training and such. I personally don't agree that just anyone should be able to get a CCW with minimal training. Training and recertification. If I have to recert for CPR. One must certainly have to recert for a CCW. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Germany was used as a example of stricter gun laws working just a few posts ago Seriously, they've had what 6 in the past 14 years and we've had over 100 and you want to use that as justification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 After considering your points I have determine: 1) True 2) False I have never hid my disdain for the NRA. You will get no argument from me about them being probably one of the worst organizations on the planet. As to point 2, prove it. Show me a link where I can get an automatic war weapon that easily. That would be highly illegal. In the rare chance you are able to prove this, I guarantee I will immediately forward that information to the ATF and FBI so they can stop it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhv4hMGdQ_g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 we also have 4x as many people. whatever that's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) Wikipedia has some good comparisons. Agh, dang it, the chart didn't translate well. *grumble grumble manually grumble grumble* Total Firearm Related Deaths per 100,000 people (US data for 2014, Germany for 2012): US: 10.54 GER: 1.01 Homicides: US: 3.43 GER: .07 Suicides: US: 6.69 GER: .84 Unintentional: US: .18 GER: .01 Undetermined: US: .08 GER: .08 And this goes with the mass shooting rate information where, controlling for population, mass shootings are about 5.5X more common in the US than in Germany. Edited June 23, 2016 by DogofWar1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Seriously, they've had what 6 in the past 14 years and we've had over 100 and you want to use that as justification? It does explain why it got mentioned in this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Believe me when I say this isn't meant to be seen as blowing you off. I'm sure I will appreciate what you posted but my computer is slow as crap at work right now and won't stream video. Can you give me a short rundown of what is in the video? If not, I understand but I won't be able to address it until tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) Seriously, they've had what 6 in the past 14 years and we've had over 100 and you want to use that as justification? we also have 4x as many people. whatever that's worth. so 24? 24 < 100 Edited June 23, 2016 by Elessar78 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 so 24? 24 < 100 we could trade populations and security forces and see how it works Germans are certainly efficient 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Automatic weapons are not illegal, one must get a special license from the ATF, it used to be $200. I don't know the requirements for obtaining the license. But strictly illegal, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Believe me when I say this isn't meant to be seen as blowing you off. I'm sure I will appreciate what you posted but my computer is slow as crap at work right now and won't stream video. Can you give me a short rundown of what is in the video? If not, I understand but I won't be able to address it until tonight. Just watch it at home later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts