The Gun Control Debate Thread

[visionary]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-texas-shooting-idUSKCN0ZF1TQ?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=57741bde04d301075adae665&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

'Please don't shoot': Texas daughters pleaded for lives before being killed by mother

 

Two Texas daughters pleaded for their lives before they were gunned down by their mother at an upscale suburban Houston home last week, according to 911 tapes released by the local sheriff's office.

 

"Please. Forgive me. Don't shoot," one of the daughters said, and then a scream is heard followed by crying, in the tape released on Tuesday by the Fort Bend Sheriff's Office.

 

"Please! I'm sorry," said one of the daughters in the 911 call placed from the phone of Madison Sheats, 17. Madison and her sister Taylor, 22, were killed by their mother, Christy Sheats, 42.

 

Christy Sheats was fatally shot by an officer responding to the incident after she failed to obey the officer's demand to drop her gun, the sheriff's office said.

Christy Sheats' husband, Jason Sheats, can also be heard pleading to prevent the shooting, the tapes showed.

 

"Please! Don't point that gun at us," Jason Sheats can be heard saying in the call from Madison. "I promise you, whatever you want, I will..," he says before the scream-filled call is cut off.Before the shooting, the four held a family meeting in the home's living room, where Christy shot her two daughters. The daughters and husband ran into the street, followed by their mother who was armed with a five-shot, .38 caliber handgun, the sheriff's office said.

Edited June 29, 2016 by visionary

[TheGreatBuzz]

So I thought some more about one of the proposals that had been brought up here.  It had been talked about limiting the amount of ammo a person can purchase and possibly tracking large ammo purchases.  At first I had agreed with it without much thought.  I have never made a online bulk order of ammo before.  Now I am looking into doing just that.  I will probably be ordering several thousand rounds of various calibers (bulk orders save 60+% of the cost and I will probably go in with a few friends and split the shipping costs).  This is what made me think about the earlier proposal.  Should I be on a watch list?

 

The issue I have with it is what makes that person more of a concern?  If you are going to set the limit at anything over 200 rounds, are mass shooters carrying more than that?  I don't think so.  Ammo gets heavy quick, especially when you are carrying it in individual magazines.

 

 

News accounts reported that the total number of rounds expended at the Pulse nightclub by Mateen and police combined was only 202, not upwards of a thousand, and thus Mateen would have needed far fewer reloads than assumed:

Source:  http://www.snopes.com/orlando-mass-shooting-math-doesnt-add-up/

 

So if he only shot 200 rounds (forgetting that the police fired some of those shots) where would you set the limit on ammo purchases?  I can't find any source regarding how many rounds the average mass shooter fires, but I did find a few articles where some fired "over a hundred rounds" which makes me think less than 200.  I went to the range with my wife last night and went through 150 rounds in about an hour so I don't think a limit that low is reasonable. 

 

Are we wanting to limit/track large purchases because we think there is a cause and effect or because it sounds good and makes us feel better?  I have changed my mind to now being against this proposal.  But I can be brought back with a good argument.  I'm just interested to hear other peoples side.

[Burgold]

The issue I have with it is what makes that person more of a concern?  If you are going to set the limit at anything over 200 rounds, are mass shooters carrying more than that?  I don't think so.  Ammo gets heavy quick, especially when you are carrying it in individual magazines.

 

Intellectually, it drives questions about need. I sometimes see people leaving Costco and they are toting 8 gallons of milk and enough groceries to feed a small army. Now, they may be buying for multiple families and certainly there's nothing wrong with stocking up and buying in bulk... heck, that's really the idea behind a  wholesale retailer like Costco, but it does make you look askance.

How can your family really eat that much? Do they really need to buy a 10 gallon drum of Glass Plus? How messy are they? Does anyone need 25 pounds of Doritos?

 

I think the same logic kind of applies to ammo sales. Mentally, you think to yourself... Well, how much ammo do you need to protect yourself? Against a burglar, a rapist, an attacker? Then, you say... I guess it makes sense to have twice that or maybe five times that amount. 

 

The question becomes trickier when someone buys it in such volume that it could supply an entire army for an extended battle. That doesn't feel like a quantity designed for defense or home use. It doesn't seem like an amount one would need for shooting skeet or going to the range.

 

Now, that doesn't mean there aren't real reasons. Bullets don't go bad and maybe this is a lifetime supply? Maybe buying in bulk is smart household economics, but when you see a guy buying three sides of beef and carrying into their studio apartment... it makes you wonder. Is there a sane reason why that guy needs a thousand, ten thousand rounds of ammo? Is he expecting a zombie apocalypse or gang warfare? Even split with a friend... geez, that sounds like a ton of bullets.

 

I'm not even talking legal vs illegal and what could or should be, but just the perceptions that follow that kind of purchase or perhaps should. It seems like it ought to raise an eyebrow and a question.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I get what you are saying and at first I thought the same thing. But then I thought more. If mass shooter aren't using those quantities, than why track it? For other people, I almost prefer they buy and USE large amounts. If you were trapped somewhere and had to pick the person to defend you, do you want the person that shoots 25 shots a year or the one that shoots thousands? To me, some one buying that much shows a person investing in proficiency with their deadly weapon (or the freak preparing for the zombies). That's the main reason I'm looking at buying a large amount. If I'm going to shoot enough to be skilled, I'll buy in bulk and save 60%. Does that thought line change your opinion at all?

BTW ammo does have a shelf life. Not in the sense that milk does but it certainly becomes less reliable with age. I wouldn't defend my home with anything over a year old.

[Burgold]

BTW ammo does have a shelf life. Not in the sense that milk does but it certainly becomes less reliable with age. I wouldn't defend my home with anything over a year old.

Honest question then, are you really shooting five thousand rounds a year? How many rounds do you think you fire in a year?

 

I don't think anything's black and white, but I think we ought to draw lines. Maybe the line isn't about the amount of ammo, but the caliber of ammo or the type of weapon, or the number of weapon? Maybe it has to do with convictions, mental health record, FBI investigations, domestic abuse complaints? Probably there isn't one line, but a checkerboard full of them.

 

Still, not being a marksman or a gun guy I don't know how to quantify what a reasonable amount of ammo is? I know what my instincts tell me and I figure it's okay to go beyond that by a certain percentage, but I also figure there's a point at which the sheer amount point to questions... and if there are questions, they should be at least asked if not monitored.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I wouldn't be surprised if it hit at least close to 5000 this year. My wife is wanting to become more proficient so that will be a decent part of it. Also in the past the amount I shot was limited due to finances. Now that I can afford it, I plan on shooting more. Thank you for admitting that you aren't an expert in this subject. But that affects if you (not you personally, just less informed people) should be making the "rules".

Edited June 29, 2016 by TheGreatBuzz

[twa]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-texas-shooting-idUSKCN0ZF1TQ?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=57741bde04d301075adae665&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

 

was that a family planning meeting?

 

She missed her shot at a freebie 

[Burgold]

Thank you for admitting that you aren't an expert in this subject. But that affects if you (not you personally, just less informed people) should be making the "rules".

LOL. But the world would be so much better if everyone just followed my rules.

 

Risking Princess Briding myself... 5,000 bullets, Greatbuzz?! Inconceivable!

 

(Kind of mind blowing in any case)

[TheGreatBuzz]

Well I need to be prepared incase I find a man with 6 fingers on his right hand.....

Well assume I go to the range twice a month. I think that is reasonable (maybe even responsible) for someone who both enjoys it and want to be proficient if I am going to carry outside of my home. Now a normal trip to the range is usually 100 rounds per firearm I own. I own 3 guns. Do the math. Actually I probably won't go that often but close to it.

[stevenaa]

LOL. But the world would be so much better if everyone just followed my rules.

 

Risking Princess Briding myself... 5,000 bullets, Greatbuzz?! Inconceivable!

 

(Kind of mind blowing in any case)

You can shoot a thousand rounds in an afternoon if you have a few people shooting very easily.   I take my 45 pistol to the range and roll through 100 rounds in no time.    That's only 13 magazines worth.   And I have to sneak out to go by myself.   My kids love to shoot so I'm not getting there without them.  That can be several hundred 22 rounds. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by stevenaa

[tshile]

it makes you wonder. Is there a sane reason why that guy needs a thousand, ten thousand rounds of ammo? Is he expecting a zombie apocalypse or gang warfare? Even split with a friend... geez, that sounds like a ton of bullets.

10 thousand is a lot, but it's all relative.

1 person in 30 minutes at the range can go through a couple hundred.

You also have to realize that there was a shortage of ammo for a long time (maybe still?) So the mindset was - if they have what you use, in stock, while you're there, buy as much as they'll allow/you can afford. Might be 2 months before you find it again.

It's funny because most people who shoot regularly... if their house was searched via warrant, would probably wind up on the news looking like some weird terrorist in the making. People think 5-15 guns and thousands of rounds of ammo is only something a nut would have. Plenty of responsible people fall into those categories.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Depends on the caliber. .380 is difficult to find sometimes for example.

I have 3 guns currently and can think of two more I'd like. I have a Walther CCP, an AR-15 franken-rifle, and just bought a Glock 42. I'd like to get a 12 gauge and a .357 revolver. But I know people with 20+ in their safe. My amount of ammo on hand varies greatly on sales I find and how much I go to the range. But like I said, I'm seriously looking at ordering in bulk online. You can 60+% per round when ordering in bulk like that. The guys at work apparently ordered before I got there and got 10,000 rounds. Saved almost 80% per round when compared to a box of 100.

[Burgold]

It's funny because most people who shoot regularly... if their house was searched via warrant, would probably wind up on the news looking like some weird terrorist in the making. People think 5-15 guns and thousands of rounds of ammo is only something a nut would have. Plenty of responsible people fall into those categories.

Nope. It's nuts.

[twa]

Nope. It's nuts.

 

it is certainly expensive, but then so is golf

 

or you can really go nuts and combine the two

 

http://spiritridgeriflegolf.com/

 

[s0crates]

https://theintercept.com/2016/06/21/democrats-war-on-due-process-and-terrorist-fear-mongering-long-pre-dates-orlando/

Democrats' War on Due Process and Terrorist Fear Mongering Long Predate Orlando

Glenn Greenwald

BEFORE THE BODIES were removed from the Pulse nightclub in Orlando last week, Democrats began eagerly exploiting that atrocity to demand a new, secret “terrorist watchlist”: something that was once the domestic centerpiece of the Bush/Cheney war-on-terror mentality. Led by their propaganda outlet, Center for American Progress (CAP), Democrats now want to empower the Justice Department — without any judicial adjudication — to unilaterally bar citizens who have not been charged with (let alone convicted of) any crime from purchasing guns.

Worse than the measure itself is the rancid rhetoric they are using. To justify this new list, Democrats, in unison, are actually arguing that the U.S. government must constrain people whom they are now calling “potential terrorists.” Just spend a moment pondering how creepy and Orwellian that phrase is in the context of government designations.

What is a “potential terrorist”? Isn’t everyone that? And who wants the U.S. government empowered to unilaterally restrict what citizens can do based on predictions or guesses about what they might become or do in the future?

. . .

For eight years, this mentality was the driving force behind the worst Bush/Cheney war-on-terror abuses. No matter what the extremist policy was — indefinite detention, warrantless eavesdropping, torture, no-fly lists, Guantánamo, rendition, CIA black sites — Republicans would justify it by saying it was merely being done to “terrorists” and would accuse their due process-advocating critics of wanting to “protect terrorists.” What they actually meant was that all of this was being done to people accused by the U.S. government of involvement in terrorism. But in their mind, “government accusations of terrorism” were synonymous with “proof of guilt.”

That is exactly the warped, Orwellian formulation Democrats embrace: As is extremely obvious, the Democrats’ definition of “terrorist” is “anyone whom the U.S. government suspects of being a terrorist.” Just as was true of all those GOP abuses, what makes these Democratic proposals so dangerous is that they constitute a war on the most basic right of due process.

. . .

Edited June 30, 2016 by s0crates

[Fergasun]

... don't you guys think time would be better spent not worrying about guns, the need to defend yourself, yadda, yadda, yadda if you knew that you nor other folks could have them? "I have to shoot 2000 rounds in case I ever have to deal with a bad guy...." just throwing this out there.

 

I'm a math, and stats guy -- so when I see stats that say "Countries A, B, C, X, Y, Z have way more restrictive gun rights and a butt-ton less of gun related homicides (and suicides, can't ignore those) -- I'm compelled to look at the data".  Yes, I know folks were say, "Dammit, we're America, we're unique, special, we have our own manifest destiny, plus we don't like looking to those forrnors for advice on how we run our country...."

 

I'd rather be a statistic in a small group of numbers than a large one....

[Kosher Ham]

When did this thread become an episode of Extreme Couponing ? 

 

Somewhat relevant...The buying in bulk part is interesting. I have no problem with it. I buy plenty of things in bulk so I do not have to worry about whether I have them. I never have just a roll of toilet paper, I never have just one deodorant, or roll of paper towels. 

 

I like to always have back ups of stuff. You know, like a boy scout...prepared for situations. 

[Burgold]

So, thinking about this need for the thousands of rounds of ammo. From the discussion here, it seems mostly linked to the shooting range. Therefore, what if we devised a two part scenario:

 

Pt. 1-- You have your right to bare arms and have some ammo at home. Is three cartridges enough for personal defense? Pick a relatively small number that would work to stave off burglars, bad guys, and the random alien invasion.

 

Pt. 2-- Your 10,000 rounds of ammo is still yours, you can buy it, you can possess it, but it is housed at your "well regulated militia" Maybe that means a locker at the shooting range or gun club. Maybe it means a safe deposit box at Gringots, but the mass quantities which the gun owner only really needs at that location stays at that location.

 

In a way, that would satisfy both parts of the 2nd. You have your right to bare arms and your armaments are part of well regulated militia.

 

(I suspect everyone will hate the idea and I know it could never pass, but it seems to me a sane compromise)

[TheGreatBuzz]

So, thinking about this need for the thousands of rounds of ammo. From the discussion here, it seems mostly linked to the shooting range. Therefore, what if we devised a two part scenario:

Pt. 1-- You have your right to bare arms and have some ammo at home. Is three cartridges enough for personal defense? Pick a relatively small number that would work to stave off burglars, bad guys, and the random alien invasion.

Pt. 2-- Your 10,000 rounds of ammo is still yours, you can buy it, you can possess it, but it is housed at your "well regulated militia" Maybe that means a locker at the shooting range or gun club. Maybe it means a safe deposit box at Gringots, but the mass quantities which the gun owner only really needs at that location stays at that location.

In a way, that would satisfy both parts of the 2nd. You have your right to bare arms and your armaments are part of well regulated militia.

(I suspect everyone will hate the idea and I know it could never pass, but it seems to me a sane compromise)

I'd have to think more about it but initially I'd so I don't have a huge problem with that. But what is the point? I go back to how many round are mass shooters firing? Are you going to only let someone keep 20 rounds in their house? Or is it something that just makes you feel better? Not trying to be sparky, I'm seriously asking what's the point?

[Burgold]

I think that's kind of where I'm going. You keep 20 rounds in your house. You only have access to the 1000's of rounds in your militia for use at the gun range. I suppose you could sign out larger amounts at special need. Then again, what special need would you have in your home for thousands of rounds of ammo.

 

It'd be a way to control where and how much firepower you have, I suppose. Haven't completely thought it through. Just an idea that sparked in my head.

[twa]

be afraid

[Burgold]

be afraid

Funny how the guys with the guns live in so much greater fear.

[twa]

Funny how the guys with the guns live in so much greater fear.

 

 not me, just another tool

[Burgold]

 not me, just another tool

Exactly. 

 

We don't let kids play with power tools.

Tools need to be put in their proper place and put away when not in use.

No one needs a hundred hammers.

Do you really need a jackhammer to build a bird house?

Etc.

[twa]

I have a hundred hammers 

Kids can use power tools with proper instruction and supervision

 

mind your own business