The Gun Control Debate Thread

[visionary]

While I’m glad that guy didn’t get a chance to go back and shoot anyone else (not sure if he would have or not, or if he might have been headed elsewhere to shoot someone else), I can’t help but envision a couple of scenes.

 

1.  Gunman shoots some people and someone else shoots the gunman there or on the way out, and then is mistaken for the original shooter by a third (or more) person who shoots them.  And hopefully this doesn’t result in a shootout between various confused people either disorientated or coming on the scene without knowing what is going on.

 

2.  Shooter turns out to be a legal gun owner, person who takes out original shooter turns out to be someone who has a gun illegally or perhaps even a gang member.  

 

Also I can’t imagine how horrifying it would be to have a shootout or multiple people getting shot at a restaurant I was eating at, even if the original shooter was taken out, that might just make it more shocking and traumatic.

 

Of course it’s better for the shooter to be taken out than for them to kill more people, but probably the best situation is one where this isn’t necessary in the first place.

 

(not advocating for any particular option or anything here though, just thinking through some stuff since reading about that incident)

Edited May 25, 2018 by visionary

[tshile]

35 minutes ago, visionary said:

Gunman shoots some people and someone else shoots the gunman there or on the way out, and then is mistaken for the original shoote

 

Just one of the unfortunate aspects of carrying a gun and choosing to intervene. It’s a serious responsibility and even if you try to do the right thing it could go wrong for a number of reasons. 

 

In the fbi’s active shooter report it lists one of the people that died trying to intervene as a plain clothed off duty cop. He was killed by friendly fire. 

 

edit: not sure he was off duty, sounds like he was under cover...

Edited May 25, 2018 by tshile

[tshile]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-pg-county-officer-shooting-20160314-story.html

 

 that’s the story. Wonder if they ever followed up on if it was a stray or mistaken identity. It sounds like an ambush on the police by multiple people. 

Found an updated article from cnn

 

Quote

 The gunshot that struck a police officer in Maryland this week was "deliberately aimed at him by another police officer," a chief said Wednesday.

It was previously known that Officer First Class Jacai Colson had been killed by friendly fire.

"The shot that struck and killed Detective Colson was deliberately aimed at him by another police officer. It's another tragic dimension to this unfolding story," Prince George's County police Chief Hank Stawinski told reporters.

 

https://www-m.cnn.com/2016/03/16/us/maryland-police-officer-killed/index.html

 

[Larry]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

i have a problem with the states deciding. we have states issuing permits with too lax of standards, and I don't know a responsible gun owner that would disagree that some of the standards are so lax that they're inappropriate for the responsibility of carrying a gun in public (though they might not care and say their view on the 2nd supersedes that concern.) We then have the issue of reciprocity - which has good intentions but is a mess. It appears to be used as a political chip, and done in such a way that doesn't actually improve the safety of the citizens, but instead takes an otherwise law abiding citizen and potentially makes them a criminal.

 

Yeah, I agree that there might be a problem with too-loose standards.  (I think some states have proposed legislation where they'll just get rid of the permits entirely, and just let people carry guns without one.)  

 

And I have a problem with the proposal I've seen, of having the feds just mandate reciprocity, too.  (Including some proposals which would let CC holders carry in states that don't allow their own citizens to carry.)  

 

There was at least the claim made, a year or two ago, that AZ was supposedly issuing permits to anybody who had a non-AZ mailing address, without even any training or background check.  (Supposedly under the theory of "Well, they aren't in our state, so why should we care if they carry in their state?")  

 

So, yeah, it certainly can have problems, or can be done badly.  

 

But I at least approve of the concept.  

[TheGreatBuzz]

I have advocated for a national firearm license for a while now and think it should have some minimal training requirements.  I like tshiles tiered idea.  But as someone who routinely travels across several states, I can tell you it is a huge pain trying to figure out each states laws and making sure they are the most current.  I know states like CA and MD wouldn’t be happy but they should at least like that there would be a training requirement.

 

on a somewhat similar topic, I don’t get why people prefer concealed carry.  I prefer open carry for several reasons.  For my own gun, it is just more comfortable.  For other people, I prefer to know who has a gun then have to guess.  I’d be fine setting a limit for size of gun like not over 8” in any direction or something like that.  So why do people prefer CC laws?  Is it just because they don’t like seeing it?  

[visionary]

 

[tshile]

8 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

on a somewhat similar topic, I don’t get why people prefer concealed carry.  I prefer open carry for several reasons.  For my own gun, it is just more comfortable.  For other people, I prefer to know who has a gun then have to guess.  I’d be fine setting a limit for size of gun like not over 8” in any direction or something like that.  So why do people prefer CC laws?  Is it just because they don’t like seeing it?  

 

In my state concealed carry requires some things. The sheriffs office has to clear you. You have to renew it every 5 years. Any substance, violent, or serious crime results in being revoked. 

 

Conversely open carry requires nothing other than the gun be displayed. There is no other requirement (other than it not being banned where you are)

 

VA is a shall issue state and the requirements are very lax by my standards so I don’t want to get carried away with how awesome the requirements are. But at least there’s *something* to it. And it’s requires renewal so it’s not a onetime something. There is nothing to open carry. 

 

When you look at my states permit revocation statistics it’s quite clear that permit owners not only don’t commit gun crimes, but they don’t commit any significant crimes. My wife and I got in a debate over it (her take that permit owners were probably responsible for a significant portion of gun violence.) we looked it up. The revocation rate was something like 0.01%. So, majority of them are not involved in any even moderately serious crime here, while being a permit holder. 

 

Additionally, there is a clear difference between open carry people and concealed carry people. Open carry people around here represent the stereotype the pro-control people often describe. It’s pretty much perfect. The exception being the old dude who just gives no you know what’s. Usually comes complete with the mustache and cowboy hat, likely a bet buckle too (in my experience these are cool cats, I’m not being demeaning here, just accurate in the description )

 

additionally, because of the aforementioned stuff, there is always tension around open carry people around here. You can see it in the store. It obviously bothers children too, they fixate on the guy that looks like trash with the gun that isn’t wearing a uniform, and their parents are usually aware of it. 

 

Further more, I’m not concerned about the guy with the gun I don’t see. Maybe it’s just because of where I am. I assume almost everyone is carrying a gun or has one in their car. Because it’s not unfair to do so here. We were among the last places to ban the shotgun in the truck on school property for students. I was a student when it happened. 

 

While concealed is not as comfortable as open it certainly doesn’t have to be uncomfortable. The big disadvantage to concealed is that it can require trying different holsters, positions and even different guns. If you’re unlucky it can be quite costly to find a comfortable set up. It is definitely a problem. 

 

So in general concealed carry people tend to fit into the group of people I’m happier with carrying guns and open fall into the group I’m concerned about. It’s definitely stereotyping but... there’s quite some truth to it, hence the stereotype. 

 

I grew up in a mindet of - you don’t tell people you have guns, you don’t tell people you carry a gun, you don’t showboat about your guns. So... I’m not saying it’s the absolute right view but I’d accept banning open carry for so, so many reasons. 

Edited May 26, 2018 by tshile

[tshile]

Also, my state drops the hammer on you if you don’t carry concealed within their set of rules. The permit isn’t hard to get, but the daily responsibility isn’t a joke and I’d they catch you slipping there’s no legal wiggle room. Your only hope would be the cop letting you off with a warning. Something that might have happened easily back in the day around here, but I don’t expect to happen *at all* around here now. Especially if one of the state boys catch you. I can’t speak for the rest of the state. 

 

So concealled carry here isn’t for the lazy or the lax rule follower (unless you’re just stupid.) Meanwhile open carry is completely uncontrolled. 

 

Pro gun control people often say the same thing - prefer open over concealed. I don’t get it. You’re preferring less requirements over more, you’re preferring stereotypically lazy or lack of responsibility over responsibility (at least in the level it demands, maybe not in the actual person)

 

and for what? So you can know? You mean so you can stay away? If you live in va... I think your judgement is wrong on this one. 

 

I dont go around sizing people up constantly though. So I don’t care. If a situation arises where I need to do something the odds are way higher that by the time I realize I have to do something, it will be irrelevant how the person was carrying. And odds are if it was concealled, it wasn’t done so legally in the first place.  So preferring law abiding citizens carry open vs concealled seems irrelevant at best. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

32 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

In my state concealed carry requires some things. The sheriffs office has to clear you. You have to renew it every 5 years. Any substance, violent, or serious crime results in being revoked. 

Pfft... sounds like a state for sissies to me. When I moved to TX I got off the plane and picked up my first AK at the Duty Free (along with a sleeveless shirt and a 6 pack of Milwaukee’s Best).

 

What state is that anyway? No chance you have a pro football team. I’m thinking basketball maybe...

 

college...

 

women’s.

[visionary]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

Pro gun control people often say the same thing - prefer open over concealed. 

Has there been a lot of discussion of this in here at some point?  I don't really remember seeing this.  (or is this from discussions you had in person?) 

I think I prefer concealed carry, but I'm not used to seeing guns in person except maybe on police officers.

[tshile]

4 hours ago, visionary said:

Has there been a lot of discussion of this in here at some point?  I don't really remember seeing this.  (or is this from discussions you had in person?) 

I think I prefer concealed carry, but I'm not used to seeing guns in person except maybe on police officers.

 

Theres been a little. Not a whole bunch. 

 

My summation of the pro-control view is based on what I’ve seen. I could have a skewed view for whatever reason. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

@tshile 

 

I should have been more clear.  Lets assume the requirements for CC vs open carry were the same.  From my experience, and a little based on discussions here, are that most gun control people prefer CC.  I was looking for opinions and why people feel a certain way.  

[thegreaterbuzzette]

Why CC? Because we are an imperfect society. I know I would rather not see everyone walking around with a 9mm on their hip. But I'm perfectly aware that many have them concealed. I cringe to thinking about how society already treats young men playing ball, imagine if there was a conspicuous firearm also on "display". 

[LadySkinsFan]

I'm with buzzette. I don't want to see open carry, it's the intimidation factor. 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

[tshile]

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

@tshile 

 

I should have been more clear.  Lets assume the requirements for CC vs open carry were the same.  From my experience, and a little based on discussions here, are that most gun control people prefer CC.  I was looking for opinions and why people feel a certain way.  

 

Thats interesting because I viewed it the opposite. Maybe I need to pay more attention 

 

If the requirements were the same then my issue would only be that I think it creates unnecessary tension and concern. But maybe that’s just me. 

 

Honestly it probably just comes down to my experience with both types of people and the bias it’s created. 

Edited May 26, 2018 by tshile

[tshile]

As someone who’s willing to entertain arming teachers, encouraging it with a raise seems all sorts of not smart 

 

in fact id prefer no encouragement. I’d like the person to want to do it, not be encouraged. 

[Renegade7]

On 5/25/2018 at 1:56 PM, visionary said:

Of course it’s better for the shooter to be taken out than for them to kill more people, but probably the best situation is one where this isn’t necessary in the first place.

 

(not advocating for any particular option or anything here though, just thinking through some stuff since reading about that incident)

 

The idea of arming teachers to me always comes across as an attempt by the NRA to sell more guns and nothing more.  I think some people forget (some intentionally) that in the Vegas shooting people with their own guns didn't pull them out because 1) it took a while for people to realize where the shooter was, and 2) they didn't want to be confused as the shooter themselves and get shot out of confusion.

 

If we do this arming of the teacher thing, there's going to eventually be an inevitable wild wild west style shootout in somebody's high school and the answer to that will be what exactly?

[TheGreatBuzz]

Actually I would say the reason most people didnt shoot back in Vegas was they knew a pistol wasnt accurate enough to hit someone that far away.

[twa]

17 minutes ago, tshile said:

As someone who’s willing to entertain arming teachers, encouraging it with a raise seems all sorts of not smart 

 

in fact id prefer no encouragement. I’d like the person to want to do it, not be encouraged. 

 

I'd prefer free training,cert ect

 

[tshile]

Who at the Vegas shooting had a gun capable of hitting someone 12 stories up in a window? 

I don’t even believe police tried. They went into the hotel if I remember correctly 

[twa]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

 

If we do this arming of the teacher thing, there's going to eventually be an inevitable wild wild west style shootout in somebody's high school and the answer to that will be what exactly?

 

Hasn't happened yet and some teachers here(and elsewhere) have been carrying since I was a kid.

I certainly think only certain ones should be armed.

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Actually I would say the reason most people didnt shoot back in Vegas was they knew a pistol wasnt accurate enough to hit someone that far away.

You're right once people realized it was coming from that far up, hopeless, but when shots first started it wasn't immediately clear where it was coming from and it was nighttime.

 

I hope ya'll get my point instead of trying to find technicalities to negate it.

21 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Hasn't happened yet and some teachers here(and elsewhere) have been carrying since I was a kid.

I certainly think only certain ones should be armed.

"It hasn't happened yet" is not a valid argument, sorry, not when my point is it eventually will if you add even more guns to the equation.  Up to this point, we probably don't have solid stats on how many teachers are packing.  If we do this we will and it will undoubtedly be more.  We increase the odds, there's no other way around it.  Not all these mass shooters it was obvious they were going to be mass shooters, either. so "only certain ones" doesn't comfort me, either.

[TheGreatBuzz]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

You're right once people realized it was coming from that far up, hopeless, but when shots first started it wasn't immediately clear where it was coming from and it was nighttime.

 

I hope ya'll get my point instead of trying to find technicalities to negate it.

Well then I would say it is an example that shows even in mass confusion, it doesnt become a wild west style shoot out.

[Renegade7]

Just now, TheGreatBuzz said:

Well then I would say it is an example that shows even in mass confusion, it doesnt become a wild west style shoot out.

No, because in a school shooting, people won't be shooting people inside the school from a skyscraper at night.  If we're going to be asking teachers to be heroes, they're going to try to be.  Again, my concern about the teacher being the shooter hasn't been addressed, and saying "its hasn't happened yet" is not a good one, either.