The Gun Control Debate Thread

[LD0506]

 

[LD0506]

[Rogue Jedi]

Party of family values indeed.

[LD0506]

 

[Kosher Ham]

2 hours ago, Burgold said:

The problem with DC and guns has always been and will always be Virginia. It's too close and the gun laws there are too lax. There certainly is no border check. That's why national gun laws are necessary. How can a local gun ban be effective if a five minute drive nets you whatever firearm you want?

 

So same as fireworks right ? 

This next part is not directed towards you @Burgold.

 

Contrary to popular opinion it seems... I am pro gun control. I am not in any way pro elimination of guns. 

 

I don't think that I have ever stated something that would seem otherwise in any thread topic. 

 

I seemingly have a similar take on it as MOST Americans... we need some checks and balances in place, an added layer of security, etc. 

Yet the idea of making all of them illegal is NEVER going to happen and if it did... many Americans would become criminals. 

 

Also, if guns were going to be banned....everyone would know far in advance ( gun sales would dominate ) ... and then all of the people that have them would be within their rights to own them...unless you want to change the second. 

 

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, Kosher Ham said:

 

 

Also, if guns were going to be banned....everyone would know far in advance ( gun sales would dominate ) ... and then all of the people that have them would be within their rights to own them...unless you want to change the second. 

 

I'm actually not for gun bans, although the more I hear that gun control won't work, the friendlier I start to get to that point of view. I mean, if background checks, mental health care, gun safety classes, training, background checks, etc. all don't do a damn thing... if the only option to preventing gun violence is sending out thoughts and prayers... then maybe we really need to get Wile E. Coyote's super electromagnet and hoover up every gun out of every hand.

 

As to more serious efforts, I will say what I'd love to see mandatory age minimums. As I said, if we can't vote until we are old and mature enough to exercise that right I don't see how children are possibly old enough and mature enough to purchase and own firearms. I would also like to see better background checks, better interagency sharing of information, more research done on gun violence, mandatory gun safety and training courses for those who want to possess a firearm. I'd love to see us introduce smart guns that only fire for the owner or designated user. I might even want mandatory gun safes. So many firearms used in crimes are stolen from law abiding citizens. Let's make it really tough for the bad guys to break a window and snatch the gun of "responsible" gun owners.

 

As for bans, I go back and forth on them. I see no reason why any citizen needs thousands of bullets for self defense, hunting, or target shooting. I see no reason why any citizen needs military level weapons to go duck hunting or to defend their homes or person. I don't know that we should ban these and rights oughtn't necessarily be defined on what a citizen needs or doesn't need, but many of these weapons seem to have no practical utility for a law abiding citizen. Likewise, I sometimes wonder why we develop cars that are designed to go 200 mph when the maximum speed limit is 75, but that's a different absurdity.

 

Edit: And let's be honest. If this is a country dumb enough to elect Trump then it's probably not a country smart enough to be trusted with guns. More, if forty percent of America still support and think Donald Trump is doing a good job... then that forty percent really is too stupid to be entrusted with a deadly weapon.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Burgold

[Rogue Jedi]

As a "lefty", I am completely aware that banning ALL guns is an impossibility at this point. However, changes can be made to prevent mass shootings.

 

First and foremost, ban the AR-15.

 

Pink elephant in the room. Why does this weapon always show up in mass shootings?

 

Spare me the argument of "its not an assault rife" or "its semi-auto, it only fires as fast as you pull the trigger".  I sure as hell know it wasn't designed with "hunting" in mind. It was designed to kill other humans.

 

I have done enough research on guns to know what it's limitations and capabilities are. The problem with this gun is that it is VERY easily modified. Bump stocks can increase the fire rate to almost full auto. High capacity magazines can be added, and now this gun is capable of taking out a lot of people in a very little time, which leads me to my next point.

 

Ban High capacity magazines. You have absolutely no reason to need this. As my Uncle once said, "If you need more than 10 bullets to defend yourself, you're ****ed anyway."

 

"But then all the criminals will have guns".

I think you are forgetting how organized crime works. Their whole operation is solely focused on the drug trade and making money. When is the last time you heard of the Bloods and Crips shooting up a mall, a movie theater, or an elementary school? Doesn't happen. They like to run more of a covert operation, and save most of their violence for other gangs/competition.

 

"But they will just get it from the black market"

Again, I think you are forgetting how the black market works. If a legal AR-15 goes for $2000 now, how much do you think it's gonna cost in the black market? Roughly around $15,000, maybe more. Is a 19 year old kid like Cruz gonna have $15,000 lying around? And even if the slim chance he does, what are the odds of a professional criminal on the black market selling to some mental kid he doesn't even know?

 

Mass shootings aren't done by organized crime. They are done by mental-case civilians who easily get their hands on weapons that are capable of putting down many people very fast.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Rogue Jedi

[bearrock]

I think among the majority of the population, there is a healthy middle ground between ban all guns and no restrictions at all.  We've just been duped into believing that nothing can be done.  

 

[twa]

13 minutes ago, bearrock said:

I think among the majority of the population, there is a healthy middle ground between ban all guns and no restrictions at all.  We've just been duped into believing that nothing can be done.  

 

 

Finding that ground while people are demanding things that are not going to pass (total bans) while claiming you want to see dead kids if you don't agree is complicated

 

Even pelosi's total ban on ALL guns for under 21 is never going to pass legal muster....much less congress

 

[Kosher Ham]

Accountability.

Responsibility.  

Respect. 

 

[visionary]

 

[Kosher Ham]

God darned an AR...When?

This is God's plan if you are willing to put it that way. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, Rogue Jedi said:

First and foremost, ban the AR-15.

 

I have done enough research on guns to know what it's limitations and capabilities are.

 

If you have done enough research, then you would know that the AR-15 is just a model of gun and there are plenty of other similar models that can do the exact same thing.  It would be like finding that the vast majority of vehicle deaths were caused by speeding in a Mustang so wanting to ban it.  Sure, the number says Mustang is the most popular but why wouldn't you ban the Camaro also?  After all it can do the same thing, it just isn't used as often.  So why just ban the AR-15?  Why not the AR-10?  Or all the other similar models?

 

I'm sorry but it has gotten to the point where whenever someone suggests banning the AR-15 as a potential fix, I know they don't know as much as they think they do.  What you probably should be suggesting is banning semi-automatic, modular style, sporting rifles.  I wouldn't support that but it would at least describe what I think you mean.

 

 

If the Left cared so much, why didn't they do more for gun control when they had the power to?  I hate to admit it but I think Trump might be on to something there (probably by accident, even a broken clock is right twice a day) that the Left doesn't really want to fix it because they want to keep it as a hot button issue to motivate their base.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I don’t agree that the Left wants to keep it as a hot button issue. Actually passing t and preventing these scenarios from happening again would be the best campaign ad they could have. I’m sure it was on their agenda.

 

Bet it would have gone over really well if the scary black Muslim terrorist got in office and immediately started passing mass gun control legislation. 

 

So they were probably working on the best way to implement and roll that out and then lost control/the ability to do it shortly afterwards anyway  

[twa]

Just now, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

 

 

If the Left cared so much, why didn't they do more for gun control when they had the power to?  I hate to admit it but I think Trump might be on to something there (probably by accident, even a broken clock is right twice a day) that the Left doesn't really want to fix it because they want to keep it as a hot button issue to motivate their base.

 

to be fair they also don't want to face the voters response.....a problem both sides face.

[LD0506]

15 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I'm sorry but it has gotten to the point where whenever someone suggests banning the AR-15 as a potential fix, I know they don't know as much as they think they do.  What you probably should be suggesting is banning semi-automatic, modular style, sporting rifles.  I wouldn't support that but it would at least describe what I think you mean.

 

TGB, this isn't specifically about you because I have a measure of respect for your interactions here, but if we ban the AR15 and another one pops up, ban it too. This shouldn't be a single grudging step, it should be a beginning, that implies further action to come. There has to be a solution because the alternative, which involves children dying in school regularly so that the industry can maintain its profit margins, is unacceptable. Responsible gun owners ought to be out in front on this, they are the very ones that should be screaming the loudest, because unless something substantial changes, we will see total bans and confiscations and "blaze of glory" news reports from the diehards. The delusional "pry it out of my cold dead hands" horse**** is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Rogue Jedi]

21 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

If you have done enough research, then you would know that the AR-15 is just a model of gun and there are plenty of other similar models that can do the exact same thing.  It would be like finding that the vast majority of vehicle deaths were caused by speeding in a Mustang so wanting to ban it.  Sure, the number says Mustang is the most popular but why wouldn't you ban the Camaro also?  After all it can do the same thing, it just isn't used as often.  So why just ban the AR-15?  Why not the AR-10?  Or all the other similar models?

 

I'm sorry but it has gotten to the point where whenever someone suggests banning the AR-15 as a potential fix, I know they don't know as much as they think they do.  What you probably should be suggesting is banning semi-automatic, modular style, sporting rifles.  I wouldn't support that but it would at least describe what I think you mean.

 

 

If the Left cared so much, why didn't they do more for gun control when they had the power to?  I hate to admit it but I think Trump might be on to something there (probably by accident, even a broken clock is right twice a day) that the Left doesn't really want to fix it because they want to keep it as a hot button issue to motivate their base.

 

Good point on similar style rifles. They can go too. They key is the modular style that is manipulated to do what it legally shouldn't.

 

As for the Left not wanting to fix it as to keep it a hot issue, I think that mostly describes politicians.

 

The general population, Left or Right, is tired of seeing kids getting slaughtered, and that I believe is a genuine sentiment.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Rogue Jedi

[AsburySkinsFan]

5 minutes ago, twa said:

 

to be fair they also don't want to face the voters response.....a problem both sides face.

On this we agree, apart from a few pockets, there is not the political will on the streets to force large scale radical gun control changes.  Gun bans won’t happen for at least a generation. The most that really be hoped for in the short term is background checks etc.

[twa]

Another one pop up?

There are probably a hundred similarly capable models out there.

[Hersh]

24 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

If the Left cared so much, why didn't they do more for gun control when they had the power to?  I hate to admit it but I think Trump might be on to something there (probably by accident, even a broken clock is right twice a day) that the Left doesn't really want to fix it because they want to keep it as a hot button issue to motivate their base.

 

With respect, this is completely wrong. The Dem politicians didn't do anything about it in 2009/10 cause they didn't have the guts to do anything out of fear that red state Dems would lose the next election. 

[AsburySkinsFan]

2 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

 

TGB, this isn't specifically about you because I have a measure of respect for your interactions here, but if we ban the AR15 and another one pops up, ban it too. This shouldn't be a single grudging step, it should be a beginning, that implies further action to come. There has to be a solution because the alternative, which involves children dying in school regularly so that the industry can maintain its profit margins, is unacceptable. Responsible gun owners ought to be out in front on this, they are the very ones that should be screaming the loudest, because unless something substantial changes, we will see total bans and confiscations and "blaze of glory" news reports from the diehards. The delusional "pry it out of my cold dead hands" horse**** is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

AR-15 is ONE style of firearm that has a semi-auto and high capacity magazine ability. It’s popular now because the patent expired and so the parts are cheap, and they are HIGHLY modular and customizeable. Ban tbe AR and you’ll have to deal with the AK’s next, then whatever comes next. The problen is that the cats already out of the bag. There are literally MILLIONS of these rifles in homes across the country with more added every day. 

[twa]

Just now, AsburySkinsFan said:

On this we agree, apart from a few pockets, there is not the political will on the streets to force large scale radical gun control changes.  Gun bans won’t happen for at least a generation. The most that really be hoped for in the short term is background checks etc.

 

if that is true arming select staff/teachers ,better security and identifying threatening persons are probably needed...apart from a few pockets

[AsburySkinsFan]

7 minutes ago, twa said:

 

if that is true arming select staff/teachers ,better security and identifying threatening persons are probably needed...apart from a few pockets

Nope.

Get the guns OUT of the hands of those who should not have them. PREVENT them fron obtaining them. 

It should be substantially more difficult to acquire a gun than it is to buy a glass of lemon aid.

@twa you keep focusing on response. That is simply wrongheaded. By that point bodies are already on the ground. How about passing a law that prevented mentally unstable people from getting firearms? 

Edited February 18, 2018 by AsburySkinsFan

[Momma There Goes That Man]

13 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

On this we agree, apart from a few pockets, there is not the political will on the streets to force large scale radical gun control changes.  

 

Polls are starting show otherwise. The public opinion of this is turning quickly. 

 

Now im not entirely sure what you mean by radical change, I assume types of outright bans 

[twa]

Just now, AsburySkinsFan said:

Nope.

Get the guns OUT of the hands of those who should not have them. PREVENT them fron obtaining them. 

It should be substantially more difficult to acquire a gun than it is to buy a glass of lemon aid.

 

It is harder, but I certainly support getting them out of hands that should not have them.

 

The devil is in the details,and if you don't support those suggestions then I don't think you see a real need.