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The Gun Control Debate Thread

Dont Taze Me Bro

By Dont Taze Me Bro
in The Tailgate

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tshile

tshile

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I would have supported that in theory.  I'd need to see details but I like the idea of reasonable gun control and not having to worry about the different laws in every different county/city.  But could the Fed even do that?  I'm no lawyer but I would think a lot of localities would balk at the idea of the Fed forcing them to tighten or loosen their gun laws.  

That sort of thing is way out of my depth. I generally thought federal  law trumps state law. 

They passed a law for cch/ccw for active/retired law enforcement to carry in all 50 states. So... yeah?

I always laughed that law enforcement had stricter rules that the average citizen in many areas. For example, at one point to get it you had to qualify for every specific gun model you wanted to carry. You were only allowed a certain subset of models to begin with, and the ones you qualified with were listed on the permit. You couldn't carry anything else.

They either recently removed that restriction or vastly broadened the list, or broadened the list and removed the requirement to qualify for each one. Can't remember...

I want a national cch/ccw because reciprocity is subject to change on a whim (see recent VA changes and issues from like a year ago and possible changes to reciprocity that were considered. But, I also think it should come with yearly training/qualification requirements, and thought it would be a realistic way to get some gun control measures through

(Except for a waiting period. As I've said beforean that's a fight over revenue to the gun industry as it would kill gun shows, the right will never give that up.)

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TheGreatBuzz

TheGreatBuzz

Posted
Posted

@tshile I get what you are saying about law enforcement and I apply that to the military also.  if both sides could sit down and think logically without their preconceived positions, they would realize a lot of rules don't make sense. 

Regarding waiting period, what if there was a waiting period only for those that don't have their "federal ccw license"?  That's how it is in florida.  If I don't have a CCW I have to wait.  Since I have mine I can pretty much walk out with anything as soon as the check clears.  Do you think the two sides could agree on something like that?  Does anyone else have an issue with that?

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TheGreatBuzz

TheGreatBuzz

Posted
Posted
Just now, tshile said:

how do gun shows do in Florida with a 3 day waiting period?

99% of gun show sales are through a business and they have to follow the normal rules regarding background checks etc.  so you pay at the show and either have to go to their store 3 days later, get them to meet you somewhere  (good luck with that), or pay a transfer fee and they will send it to a shop closer to you.  Unless you have a CCW .   Then you can leave with it that day but you still have to do paperwork and they call to make sure your CCW  is still valid.

 

That's what gets me when people complain about the gun show loophole.  is should really be called the private sale loophole. gun shows have nothing to do with it.  the lack of a background check etc applies to private sales and they rarely happen at gun shows.  I have been to many a gun show in my time and can only remember one time I saw a person selling a gun (it was a hunting style shotgun) as a private party sale.  and he ended up selling it to one of the businesses! 

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tshile

tshile

Posted
Posted (edited)

Right, the "gun show loophole" seems to have gotten its name from the idea that all it facilitates a bunch of people meeting up, selling guns as 'private sellers' to avoid background checks.

 

I have no data on how much that does/doesn't happen, seems like a boogie man to me. But yeah, it's a private sales loophole.

 

So, are gun shows in florida big business? I figured a 3 day waiting period would kill their popularity, but getting around it by having a CCW seems like an easy workaround. I can't imagine Florida is overly strict ton CCWs.... They aren't on anything else gun related. I'm surprised they even have a 3 day waiting period...

 

Edit: For comparison purposes, here in VA where there is no 3 day waiting period (it's a roughly 1 hour waiting period for them to run the background check), gun shows are packed from open to close, friday through sunday, usually. they fill up the dulles expo center from start to finish over the 3 day weekend and I think they do it twice a year there, and a bunch of other places around the area.

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TheGreatBuzz

TheGreatBuzz

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, tshile said:

Right, the "gun show loophole" seems to have gotten its name from the idea that all it facilitates a bunch of people meeting up, selling guns as 'private sellers' to avoid background checks.

 

I have no data on how much that does/doesn't happen, seems like a boogie man to me. But yeah, it's a private sales loophole.

 

So, are gun shows in florida big business? I figured a 3 day waiting period would kill their popularity, but getting around it by having a CCW seems like an easy workaround. I can't imagine Florida is overly strict ton CCWs.... They aren't on anything else gun related. I'm surprised they even have a 3 day waiting period...

Yea there is one by house about once a month or so.  I have no idea how much business they do but since they keep having them, I would expect it's a good bit.  Florida's rules on where I can carry etc are stricter than a lot of other places.  But for a CCW it's pretty much a background check, finger prints, and you have to take a class.  I had the class waived because I'm military but my wife took it and it was about 3 hours.  it went over the laws in the area, safe gun handling, and then went to a range and had to show that you can safely operate a gun.  Though that meant she had to go fire one shot and it didn't matter if she hit the target as long as she didn't shoot someone.

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tshile

tshile

Posted
Posted

Hah, stricter than VA. online class and a background check is all they require here.

 

interesting. I always thought the 3 day waiting period was about killing/protecting the gun shows (I always thought a 3 day waiting period would kill them.)

 

a gun show in northern VA isn't much appeal to a dealer that's from New york. You have to stay here until Wednesday to sell your guns, and the person has to come back during the week to pick them up...

 

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Larry

Larry

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

That's what gets me when people complain about the gun show loophole.  is should really be called the private sale loophole. gun shows have nothing to do with it.  the lack of a background check etc applies to private sales and they rarely happen at gun shows.  I have been to many a gun show in my time and can only remember one time I saw a person selling a gun (it was a hunting style shotgun) as a private party sale.  and he ended up selling it to one of the businesses! 

 

11 minutes ago, tshile said:

Right, the "gun show loophole" seems to have gotten its name from the idea that all it facilitates a bunch of people meeting up, selling guns as 'private sellers' to avoid background checks.

 

I have no data on how much that does/doesn't happen, seems like a boogie man to me. But yeah, it's a private sales loophole.

 

 

I fully agree that the "gun show loophole" is a misnomer.  But it's the popular term, so I figure we're stuck with it.  I use it, but put it in quotes.  (Just like I do "assault weapon".)  

 

OTOH, as long as we're using anecdotes as data, I've got one of my own.  

 

Granted, it's 20 years ago, in Oklahoma.  Huge grain of salt, and all that.  

 

My Star Trek club used to do fundraisers, working at the Oklahoma fairgrounds.  (It's a scam that lots of venues run.  The venue gets to pay concession workers less than minimum wage, and call it a "charitable contribution", and probably write it off on their taxes.)  We worked several gun shows.  

 

And at multiple events, on my break, I'm wandering around the show.  And there's a dealer (remember, multiple gun shows.  might have been the same person at every one, or might have been different people), informing a potential customer that he can sell him a gun today, with no background check, no waiting period, and no paper record.  

 

Because, see, he's not a dealer.  

 

Now, granted, he's standing at a gun show, manning a table that has 50 guns for sale.  (And he's got another 100, behind the table.)  

 

But, you see, they aren't really his guns.  See, behind the counter, he's got a recipe box full of index cards.  And he's got an index card for every gun he's selling, with the name of who's selling that gun.  And the guy at the table is simply collecting money on behalf of the person in the recipe box (and taking a fee, from the sale.)  

 

So, you see, he's sitting at a gun show, with 200 guns for sale.  And he may sell 50-75 of them, at this show.  And the law says that, if you sell three guns a year, then you're a dealer.  But he's not a dealer.  Because he's really 200 people.  

 

(He then goes on to point out that, since he's 200 people, he isn't required to keep any records about the 250 guns he sells a year, and therefore the government can't prove that he's a dealer.)  

 

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PleaseBlitz

PleaseBlitz

Posted
Posted

Recommending that we put this thread in storage until the White House, Senate, House and (soon) SCOTUS are not republican/NRA-controlled.

 

Do reasonable gun control measures still makes sense?  Yes!  Is there a snowballs chance in hell that the law moves towards restrictions, and not in the opposite direction, anytime soon?  None whatsoever.

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TheGreatBuzz

TheGreatBuzz

Posted
Posted
40 minutes ago, tshile said:

Hah, stricter than VA. online class and a background check is all they require here.

 

interesting. I always thought the 3 day waiting period was about killing/protecting the gun shows (I always thought a 3 day waiting period would kill them.)

 

a gun show in northern VA isn't much appeal to a dealer that's from New york. You have to stay here until Wednesday to sell your guns, and the person has to come back during the week to pick them up...

 

I can't say for certain that everything they did in her class was required.  They may have gone above and beyond.  But it was done at the gun show.  In Florida, most anyone who is "in to" guns has a CCW so I imagine most people don't have to wait.  But that is just off my experience, I haven't looked into any data on it nor do I care to.  

 

@Larry don't take this as me saying you didn't experience that because I have no doubt you did but that exact story is used by the left all the time as a reason for closing the loop.  But the ATF has severely cracked down on people doing this.  Do people still try to skirt the rules?  Absolutely!  But nowadays it is far less common.  Most gun shows won't even let you get a booth to sell guns at unless you have an FFL.  And there is no need to since now there are websites that are essentially craigslist for guns that ARE private sales.  But even those get watched.  I personally know a guy who sold 3 guns in one day with one of those sites and the ATF was at his house the next day.  They were able to do that just by him putting his cell number in the ad.  Believe me they are doing a pretty good job of enforcing the current laws.

13 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Recommending that we put this thread in storage until the White House, Senate, House and (soon) SCOTUS are not republican/NRA-controlled.

 

Do reasonable gun control measures still makes sense?  Yes!  Is there a snowballs chance in hell that the law moves towards restrictions, and not in the opposite direction, anytime soon?  None whatsoever.

We Ardis things here all the time that will never happen.  Doesn't mean we shouldn't still discuss it.  Personally I enjoy the discussions because it is something I am passionate about.

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TheGreatBuzz

TheGreatBuzz

Posted
Posted

@Renegade7 this is probably a better place to discuss.

You said something to the effect that you don't think you should be Blessed to carry a gun in any part of the airport.  I'd like to ask your reason for that.  Obviously guns past security is not allowed so you can't take them on a plane.  But why don't you think they should be in baggage claim versus any other place you can legally carry one?

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Renegade7

Renegade7

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Posted
14 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

@Renegade7 this is probably a better place to discuss.

You said something to the effect that you don't think you should be Blessed to carry a gun in any part of the airport.  I'd like to ask your reason for that.  Obviously guns past security is not allowed so you can't take them on a plane.  But why don't you think they should be in baggage claim versus any other place you can legally carry one?

That's like asking "why do I support not allowing firearms in DC museums?"  I'm not a fan of allowing firearms in the open in large congregations of people. This day in age, its just asking for it.

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TheGreatBuzz

TheGreatBuzz

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

That's like asking "why do I support not allowing firearms in DC museums?"  I'm not a fan of allowing firearms in the open in large congregations of people. This day in age, its just asking for it.

Are firearms allowed in DC museums?  I honestly don't know.  I haven't lived there since I was a kid.

I disagree with your opinion but you are entitled to it.  I'd love to debate it with you but don't want to drag you into a conversation you don't have much interest in either.  Out of curiosity what do you consider a large congregation?  You don't have to answer if you don't feel like going on.

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Renegade7

Renegade7

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Are firearms allowed in DC museums?  I honestly don't know.  I haven't lived there since I was a kid.

I disagree with your opinion but you are entitled to it.  I'd love to debate it with you but don't want to drag you into a conversation you don't have much interest in either.  Out of curiosity what do you consider a large congregation?  You don't have to answer if you don't feel like going on.

 

Ya, I'm kinda in the middle of studying, but they aren't allowed in DC museums, and I'd consider that a good example.  Basically a large area with lots of people and limited exits or hiding places.  I don't think we'll ever get to point of passing laws to do this with malls, but airports are realistic.

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twa

twa

Posted
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pretty sure firearms in florida airports are required to be unloaded and in cases, aside from security and police..

 

they do need armed security anywhere guns are not allowed to be carried

 

 

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TheGreatBuzz

TheGreatBuzz

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, twa said:

pretty sure firearms in florida airports are required to be unloaded and in cases, aside from security and police..

 

they do need armed security anywhere guns are not allowed to be carried

 

 

You can carry anywhere outside of security.  I have carried several times at baggage claim when picking up my wife.

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AsburySkinsFan

AsburySkinsFan

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

That's like asking "why do I support not allowing firearms in DC museums?"  I'm not a fan of allowing firearms in the open in large congregations of people. This day in age, its just asking for it.

1) You realized that you just described a city street at lunchtime right? Seriously, a few hundred people gathered around (which is about how many are in a baggage claim area). The question will be asked "then how many people can I carry my gun around?" 

 

2) I have friends who are professional hunters and they travel with their rifles to hunts in Wyoming, Montana, and Canada. I may be convinced that checking ammo should be banned from check baggage, but the firearm itself? No.

7 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

America still got a gun problem? Still not allowed to even study it?

 

Very well. Carry on then.

As I've said before, we've been forced to accept mass shootings as that which waters the tree of liberty. I'm for gun ownership, but our status quo is unsustainable.

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