PeterMP Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Larry said: The fact that the gun, itself, represents a threat to everybody else in the school? Every day in this country, thousands, millions, of people currently have met your requirements - people who've been licensed, passed background checks, purchased guns legally. And every day, a large number (a small percentage, but a large number) of those weapons, purchased legally, wind up shooting people, through lots of differing paths. Some get stolen, or borrowed, or lost, or left out and somebody comes along and finds them, or get accidentally discharged, or fired at somebody who the owner thought was doing something wrong, but he wasn't, or . . . . The problem is, in order to get that "teacher saves one life from a mass shooting", you have to put a million guns in the hands of a million teachers. And if you do that, then there's going to be a large number (a small percentage, but a large number) of things which can be lumped into the heading of "Aw, ****!" 1. Current background checks and licenses are NOT my requirements. Current background checks or licensing do not require REGULAR training or evaluations "are willing to be regularly trained and will undergo regular evaluations can do so". I'm talking about greater requirements than required by most police forces. 2. Why is the number a million? Why can't the next school shooter try and force themselves into a classroom with a teacher with a gun and be killed before shooting any of the students in that classroom? Edited February 22, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Cops having guns increase the number of guns. More guns are bad. Taking guns from cops means less guns, means fewer bad things happen. You aren't going to argue that cops don't do bad things with guns, are you? Honestly I dont see the point in talking to you anymore. If you are willing to make such a stupid argument just to save face im not going to waste my time. Obviously I gave you too much credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, twa said: Adding a small number of guns(tightly controlled) to prevent the gun ALREADY there resulting in great harm(and the threat that exists) is logical and standard practice in most every setting. It's also a complete fiction. (Coming from you, I'm certain it's an intentional one.) Unless you've got a magical way of teleporting a gun into the hands of the one teacher in America who's experiencing a mass shooting, right this minute, that you haven't told us about. Otherwise, what you're really proposing is to put guns into the hands of a million teachers, and hoping that one of them happens to be where a mass shooting happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Jedi Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said: I know a guy with 100,000+ rounds Wow. And what exactly does he plan on doing with that many rounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Burgold said: I, and others, have. Is there a psychological impact on the students being in the environment you are creating? Is there a psychological impact on the teachers being in the environment you are creating? How do we determine teachers are fit psychologically to possess a gun in a school and that they are fit psychological to act appropriately during a crisis? Is there a risk due to a change in power dynamics because of having a gun? Is there an extra mortality risk as we add to the pool of guns in a school? Is there a cost associated with guns: be it for equipment, training, insurance, etc. Is there a sociological impact based on a shift of the locus of authority moving from internal to external? How effective will you teacher militia be? How does that change allocation of resources? Plus thousands of other questions. Besides, shooting down the idea of armed teachers is not shooting down every solution. Now that is a straw man argument. Is there a psychological impact on students for being in environments where they are being extremely inadequately protected? Is there a psychological impact on teachers for being in environments where they are being extremely inadequately protected and do not even have the ability protect their kids? etc. I'm good with asking questions. I've already said there should be concerns, and I'm completely open to changing my mind if it turns out to be a bad idea. The problem is that you are actively asserting it is a bad idea. You are asserting there ARE PROBLEMS. What are the problems? Yes, there might BE problems that we don't know about now. There's a difference between this might not be a good idea, but it is something we can look at it, and it is a bad idea that has problems. Shooting down solutions because there might be problems results in no solutions. That is what you are doing. Edited February 22, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rogue Jedi said: Wow. And what exactly does he plan on doing with that many rounds? Freedom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 OK how about this idea? How about all sales of smart guns are exempt from sales taxes? (This would obviously be state proposals). Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, Llevron said: Honestly I dont see the point in talking to you anymore. If you are willing to make such a stupid argument just to save face im not going to waste my time. Obviously I gave you too much credit. You do realize that there are countries in the world where the police do not regularly carry guns based pretty much on that logic. Is there a reason we shouldn't at least consider doing the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 The goalposts are dancing like MC Hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Why is the number a million? I freely admit that a million is a number I completely pulled out of my ****. Care to play with some numbers, to come up with a better estimate? How many teachers are there, in America, today? And how many of them will be on the scene of a mass shooting, today? I'll freely admit that the ratio is not exactly a million to one. But will assert that it's in the ballpark. Maybe it's off by a factor of 10. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. But I'm pretty sure that, right now in America as a whole, the ratio of people getting killed by guns, to number of mass shootings stopped by citizen who happened to be in the right place, is in the neighborhood of "thousands to zero". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Just now, Larry said: I freely admit that a million is a number I completely pulled out of my ****. Care to play with some numbers, to come up with a better estimate? How many teachers are there, in America, today? And how many of them will be on the scene of a mass shooting, today? I'll freely admit that the ratio is not exactly a million to one. But will assert that it's in the ballpark. Maybe it's off by a factor of 10. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. But I'm pretty sure that, right now in America as a whole, the ratio of people getting killed by guns, to number of mass shootings stopped by citizen who happened to be in the right place, is in the neighborhood of "thousands to zero". Somebody somewhere at some time has to make the 1. No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 21 minutes ago, twa said: If I may interject No thanks lol Im getting enough extreme bull**** from the other guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, nonniey said: OK how about this idea? How about all sales of smart guns are exempt from sales taxes? (This would obviously be state proposals). Thoughts? What does this solve? I am in favor of smart guns. Making them easier to buy does nothing but increasing the proliferation of another type of weapon. I would say a good chunk of mass shooters were able to buy their guns legally. Ultimately I want law makers to sit down and codify a set of laws that severely limit weapons like the AR-15 without being a blanket ban on semi-auto rifles. Magazine restrictions etc. whatever. Not my job, not the people's job to do the brainstorming for them. Until then, anyone even preventing our legislative bodies from having these debates needs to be voted out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 hour ago, PeterMP said: Yes. Especially if I require more restrictions for the teacher to carry the gun than most police (most police only have a yearly gun test, aren't concealed carry, and don't have a biometric trigger locks on their gun). And certainly in the context of liability and the post. If the an innocent kid gets shoot at a school in a cross fire between an armed mass shooter and somebody trying to stop them, from a liability perspective does it matter? You are missing the point. It’s not about more restrictions for teachers, it’s about training to deal with these situations. As for your scenario and kids getting killed in crossfire, if that’s where you are now, maybe step back and do some soul searching on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 13 minutes ago, Rogue Jedi said: Wow. And what exactly does he plan on doing with that many rounds? Protecting himself from the government, duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 10 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: Just a reminder that Philando Castile was a school employee with a concealed-carry permit and a legally purchased firearm when he was murdered by a traffic cop while reaching for his ID. Pretty sure the risk TO armed teachers has been mentioned, as has the benefit of having armed people on site to limit the area those mad dog armed cops need to clear. After all if they will shoot Castile then they will really be a danger when shots are already being fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Just now, No Excuses said: What does this solve? I am in favor of smart guns. Making them easier to buy does nothing but increasing the proliferation of another type of weapon. I would say a good chunk of mass shooters were able to buy their guns legally. Ultimately I want law makers to sit down and codify a set of laws that severely limit weapons like the AR-15 without being a blanket ban on semi-auto rifles. Magazine restrictions etc. whatever. Not my job, not the people's job to do the brainstorming for them. Until then, anyone even preventing our legislative bodies from having these debates needs to be voted out. I'm going to say this again. This is a repeat of the Brady Bill. It didn't (significantly) reduce gun deaths and I doubt it will significantly reduce mass killings (again, see the damage the VA tech shooter did with 2 hand guns). In ten years, you'll just have given the pro-gun something else to crow about how liberals are dumb and gun control doesn't work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Yall gonna play like we want to take guns from police officers then im going to play like yall want to arm students. Since that is the logical conclusion of the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun. If we arent going to have any honesty or objectivity in this argument anyway then **** it. We need a Bizaro TWA anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Is there a psychological impact on students for being in environments where they are being extremely inadequately protected? Yeah, there is. I will speak anecdotally to this although I'm sure there have been many studies. I taught middle school during Columbine and I was teaching sociology at a small college during 9/11. In both instances, kids were freaked out and scared. They wanted assurance that they were safe and explanations about why these things happen. I did my best to counsel and struggle through these events with them. If I had a gun it would have actually amped up their fear because it would make the threat that much more real. Now, I'll return the favor. How many guns makes a child feel "adequately" or actually protected? If they are concealed (as has been the major contention in this thread) does impact of having guns that the child doesn't know about make them feel protected? What level of risk does the gun add on every school day that there isn't an active shooter scenario ongoing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Hersh said: You are missing the point. It’s not about more restrictions for teachers, it’s about training to deal with these situations. As for your scenario and kids getting killed in crossfire, if that’s where you are now, maybe step back and do some soul searching on this topic. Restrictions are related to training. That's not where I'm at ONLY because that was part of the post I responded to where you then responded to me quoting them. You jumped into a conversation where somebody else was asking what would the schools liability in those situations. 1 minute ago, Llevron said: Yall gonna play like we want to take guns from police officers then im going to play like yall want to arm students. Since that is the logical conclusion of the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun. If we arent going to have any honesty or objectivity in this argument anyway then **** it. We need a Bizaro TWA anyway. I'm actually for disarming a large number of cops or severely ramping up the requirements for be a cop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 hour ago, twa said: Last I checked we are giving a lot of money to schools and teachers. Gonna be giving more to lawyers as well if you don't provide security of some sort....and truant officers apparently. When was the last time to check how much teachers were getting paid and how much went into education? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, PeterMP said: I'm actually for disarming a large number of cops or severely ramping up the requirements for be a cop. That doesn't have **** to do with what we are talking about or the fact that you are intellectually dishonest just to make whatever dumb ass point you are trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, Larry said: I'll freely admit that the ratio is not exactly a million to one. But will assert that it's in the ballpark. Maybe it's off by a factor of 10. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. I made this argument earlier. There are approximately 98,000 public schools in the US today (2014). It has been contended that one teacher carrying a weapon is not sufficient to safeguard the school. So, the number has to be over a 100,000 guns. Ironically, I chose as a guess an average of ten armed teachers per school myself to deal with a Columbine scenario with two attackers armed with automatic or semiautomatic weapons. That'd be your million. Maybe it's half that number to reach "adequate safety" Maybe it's a third though three teachers a school with handguns feels on the low side to protect an entire campus. The proponents of this idea pretty aggressively are against us considering numbers, cost, risk, outside factors, etc. though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 You can stop quoting me @twa. You are on ignore and will remain so forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 21 minutes ago, Burgold said: I, and others, have. Is there a psychological impact on the students being in the environment you are creating? Is there a psychological impact on the teachers being in the environment you are creating? How do we determine teachers are fit psychologically to possess a gun in a school and that they are fit psychological to act appropriately during a crisis? Is there a risk due to a change in power dynamics because of having a gun? Is there an extra mortality risk as we add to the pool of guns in a school? Is there a cost associated with guns: be it for equipment, training, insurance, etc. Is there a sociological impact based on a shift of the locus of authority moving from internal to external? How effective will you teacher militia be? How does that change allocation of resources? Plus thousands of other questions. Besides, shooting down the idea of armed teachers is not shooting down every solution. Now that is a straw man argument. Those are questions, not problems......not that I mind questions It would be good to study it in places already having them to get results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts