What is God?

[tshile]

Interesting topic, something I've thought a lot about.

I'll start by saying that the traditional definition of God is very problematic.

 

 

But what you pose are problems created by taking ideas from nature (as we understand nature) and concepts we've created for ourselves, and imposing them on a super natural force.

[s0crates]

But what you pose are problems created by taking ideas from nature (as we understand nature) and concepts we've created for ourselves, and imposing them on a super natural force.

I find this response utterly unsatisfying.

[Predicto]

So god is a "spiritual being" who is everywhere, all-knowing, all-powerful, and good. He is spiritual, like a ghost.  But he is also "living."  And we believe this because it was written in the Bible. 

 

We owe him our obedience.  Yet what are we to obey except what man interprets as The Word?  

 

This is the "Kissing Hank's Ass" problem.  

 

(if you google it, it is skit that is a condescending attack on all religion, but it has some logical force behind it.   Some militant atheists find it hilarious.   I'm not going to post it because it's rude and I don't want to belittle anyone's beliefs)

[tshile]

I find this response utterly unsatisfying.

 

Ok. Continue thinking human concepts of square and circle are not alterable by a super natural force.

 

(We aren't the authority of the universe, even if there is no god)

[s0crates]

To ask the question in the first place is the definition of hubris.

Inherently unknowable. Presupposing God's (or Gods') existence, if these questions were answerable then he/she/it/they would not be divine

I doubt this. It may be that God is not completely knowable, but I cannot accept that He is completely unknowable.

Ok. Continue thinking human concepts of square and circle are not alterable by a super natural force.

(We aren't the authority of the universe, even if there is no god)

Do you not think we can know things?

It seems to me if there is any claim I know is true, then the proposition "square circles are impossible" is an example. (Also note this is a logical truth not a natural or empirical one).

The argument you advance is often given in response to these sorts of issues (sometimes they call this the argument from human epistemological limitations). Now intellectual humility is a good thing, but this isn't that. This is just an evasion.

[tshile]

Do you not think we can know things?

 

 When you start entertaining the idea that there's a super natural being that created us (and everything around us), that is watching over us, and may or may not punish or reward us based on our actions.... applying human created philosophical questions, natural laws, and descriptions we've defined ourselves to help explain the world around us seems.... rather silly.

 

If there is a god, and god did create everything around us, then I would look around at this time and say... No, we don't know a ****ing thing about what is going on.

 

Because I see zero actual evidence that is the case. So if it is the case, then I think we've done a hell of a job convincing ourselves we have a clue when, in reality, we don't.

[abdcskins]

He is a figment of your imagination.

 

Basically God is whatever you want it to be.

[tshile]

It seems to me if there is any claim I know is true, then the proposition "square circles are impossible" is an example.

The argument you advance is often given in response to these sorts of issues (sometimes they call this the argument from human epistemological limitations). Now intellectual humility is a good thing, but this isn't that. This is just an evasion.

 

You added more in an edit after I started responding.

 

But essentially - again, you are applying human created rules to a super natural being, then using these human created rules to insist this super natural being cannot/does not exist.

 

You don't see the problem with that?

 

It's not evasion. It's a basic understanding of the tactics you're using and why they fall short.

 

You're applying a set of rules to an object that would, if it exists, be under no obligation to follow your rules.

[s0crates]

But essentially - again, you are applying human created rules to a super natural being, then using these human created rules to insist this super natural being cannot/does not exist.

I never said God doesn't exist. I thought the concern here was definitional, not existential.

I think square circles were impossible before any humans had any concepts. This is an eternal truth of geometry, not some human invention.

It's not evasion. It's a basic understanding of the tactics you're using and why they fall short.

The tactics I'm using? Which? Logic?

You're applying a set of rules to an object that would, if it exists, be under no obligation to follow your rules.

You think God can do the logically impossible?

Take a simpler example: Can God make 2+2=5?

[cakmoney61]

So god is a "spiritual being" who is everywhere, all-knowing, all-powerful, and good. He is spiritual, like a ghost.  But he is also "living."  And we believe this because it was written in the Bible. 

 

We owe him our obedience.  Yet what are we to obey except what man interprets as The Word?  There's the rub, and the source of too much strife in this world of competing religions. 

 

Jesus said in John 4:24 that God is a Spirit.

 

Men don't teach the Bible.  The Holy Spirit teaches the Bible through men and those who are being taught are taught by the Holy Spirit who is also called the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Truth, etc.  The Holy Spirit enables all to understand who truly want to understand what is written in the Bible.  I hope the following scriptures help.

 

Jesus said in John14:15-17, "If you love me, keep my commands.  And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

 

Jesus continued in John 14:25-26, “All this I have spoken while still with you.  But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 

Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit from Heaven after He ascended to Heaven (see Act 1:1-10).  Fifty days later believers received the promised baptism of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:1-40).

 

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?...(the Apostle Paul reminds the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 6:19)

 

But you have an anointing (an enabling by the Holy Spirit) from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.  I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. (the Apostle John in 1 John 2:20-21)

 

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. (1 John 2:27)

 

I wrote all that to finish with the following from the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:10-15:

 

God has shown these things to us through his Spirit. The Spirit understands all things. He understands even the deep things of God. ¹¹ Who can know the thoughts of another person? Only a person’s own spirit can know them. In the same way, only the Spirit of God knows God’s thoughts. ¹² What we have received is not the spirit of the world. We have received the Spirit who is from God. The Spirit helps us understand what God has freely given us. ¹³ That is what we speak about. We don’t use words taught to us by people. We use words taught to us by the Holy Spirit. We use the words taught by the Spirit to explain spiritual truths. ¹⁴ The person without the Spirit doesn’t accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. These things are foolish to them. They can’t understand them. In fact, such things can’t be understood without the Spirit’s help. ¹⁵ The person who has the Spirit can judge all things. But no human being can judge those who have the Spirit.

[s0crates]

If there is a god, and god did create everything around us, then I would look around at this time and say... No, we don't know a ****ing thing about what is going on.

Let me show you how silly this sounds with an analogous chain of reasoning:

If there was a Shakespeare, and if he wrote "Hamlet," then I would read it and say we don't know anything about Shakespeare.

On the contrary, it seems to me that if God is the author of nature, then nature would surely give us some evidence about God's character. (For example, he seems to like rational order).

Because I see zero actual evidence that is the case. So if it is the case, then I think we've done a hell of a job convincing ourselves we have a clue when, in reality, we don't.

You claim we know nothing?

[CrypticVillain]

....

This was a very "apologetic" post.

[tshile]

I never said God doesn't exist. I thought the concern here was definitional, not existential.

I think square circles were impossible before any humans had any concepts. This is an eternal truth of geometry, not some human invention.

The tactics I'm using? Which? Logic?

You think God can do the logically impossible?

Take a simpler example: Can God make 2+2=5?

God, as we're told, is supposed to be super natural. Right?

 

You're trying to limit a super natural being to your understanding of the world.

 

You do not see the problem this creates?

 

Logic means nothing if God truly exists. If God exists then logic is just one of many human created ideas that have no basis in whatever reality it is god exists in. It exist sin our reality, which if God exists then our reality is a fake reality.

 

How do you have such an interest in philosophy and not understand the basic idea that applying our ideas (based on nature as we observe it) to a supernatural being is absurd?

[PeterMP]

God, as we're told, is supposed to be super natural. Right?

 

You're trying to limit a super natural being to your understanding of the world.

 

You do not see the problem this creates?

 

Logic means nothing if God truly exists. If God exists then logic is just one of many human created ideas that have no basis in whatever reality it is god exists in. It exist sin our reality, which if God exists then our reality is a fake reality.

 

How do you have such an interest in philosophy and not understand the basic idea that applying our ideas (based on nature as we observe it) to a supernatural being is absurd?

 

2+2=4 

 

is not an observation from the natural world.

 

Math is a not a natural science.

[skinsmarydu]

Honestly...the first thing I thought when I read the thread title was, "Oh, Jesus...not again?"

Whatever it/who is can be totally personal. No definition necessary. To anyone.

[tshile]

2+2=4 

 

is not an observation from the natural world.

 

Math is a not a natural science.

 

But math is a concept humans have created.

 

Humans, which are limited. Naturally limited.d

 

And you're trying to apply a concept created by humans to a being that is super natural, and by that very definition not limited in the way we normally consider things to be limited.

 

You want this being to be super natural and then pose rules we've created, based on our understanding of the world and our ability to think and reason, and then declare it impossible. Completely ignoring the fact that a super natural being would not in any way be restricted the way we're proposing it would be.

 

This seems like a relatively easy concept, I don't understand what I'm missing here.

[PeterMP]

 

But math is a concept humans have created.

 

Humans, which are limited. Naturally limited.d

 

And you're trying to apply a concept created by humans to a being that is super natural, and by that very definition not limited in the way we normally consider things to be limited.

 

You want this being to be super natural and then pose rules we've created, based on our understanding of the world and our ability to think and reason, and then declare it impossible. Completely ignoring the fact that a super natural being would not in any way be restricted the way we're proposing it would be.

 

This seems like a relatively easy concept, I don't understand what I'm missing here.

 

What you seem to be missing is that most people don't think we "created" math vs. "discovered" math.

 

If no humans exist, does 2+2 no longer equal 4?

 

Most people would tell if no humans exist, 2+2 is still 4.

 

It is certainly possible that God is "beyond" math.  I'm not quite sure what that would even mean or entail.

 

But that isn't the same as saying that God is supernatural

 

Something that is supernatural can still be bound/limited by math.

 

Nature is limited by math.  Math isn't nature.  Might God be beyond nature and math?  Yes.

Though pointing out that God is supernatural isn't really making that claim and doesn't explain how God would be beyond math or even what that would mean.

 

Can God make 2+2 = 5?

 

I'm not sure.  I'm not sure what that would mean.

[tshile]

 

I'm not sure.  I'm not sure what that would mean.

Isn't that the whole point though?

 

If God exists, doesn't that essentially change the "universe" as we know it? Are we not living inside of someone's experiment at that point? Something they created for us to live in, which means outside of that we have no idea what logic is, what "reality" is.

 

It comes across to me as saying:

Earth is the only place we know that is livable. We didn't get a point where a person was able to live outside of earth's atmosphere until the 1960's. So how could god have lived, outside of earth, before the 1960's? He wouldn't have had access to our equipment.

 

Except for the fact that if god exists then he's not in any way limited by the things we are.

 

The problem here is that you seem to think thought and/or reason would somehow be special in that regard. My point is that it's not. God would not be limited by our understanding of logic/reason/etc.

 

If he exists that is.

 

Maybe I'm the one that doesn't get it. either way I give up at this point.

 

edit: to be clear, my giving up is about my frustration with myself and not being able to explain what I mean (or get why what your saying makes my thoughts wrong/irrelevant) and running out of ways to explain it. has nothing to do with either of you two

[PeterMP]

Isn't that the whole point though?

 

If God exists, doesn't that essentially change the "universe" as we know it? Are we not living inside of someone's experiment at that point? Something they created for us to live in, which means outside of that we have no idea what logic is, what "reality" is.

 

It comes across to me as saying:

Earth is the only place we know that is livable. We didn't get a point where a person was able to live outside of earth's atmosphere until the 1960's. So how could god have lived, outside of earth, before the 1960's? He wouldn't have had access to our equipment.

 

Except for the fact that if god exists then he's not in any way limited by the things we are.

 

The problem here is that you seem to think thought and/or reason would somehow be special in that regard. My point is that it's not. God would not be limited by our understanding of logic/reason/etc.

 

If he exists that is.

 

Maybe I'm the one that doesn't get it. either way I give up at this point.

 

edit: to be clear, my giving up is about my frustration with myself and not being able to explain what I mean (or get why what your saying makes my thoughts wrong/irrelevant) and running out of ways to explain it. has nothing to do with either of you two

 

Most Christians (and other religious folks that I know) except that God is knowable and at least partly knowable through our logic and reasoning.  That God wants us to know God and that one reason we have the ability to use logic and reason is to use it to know God.

 

Certainly, everything that is logical to God might not be logical to us (immediately), but our logic and ability to reason has at least some utility.

 

If you start from a place that God is so far above us that all of our logic and reason is worthless in understanding/knowing God, then what you are saying makes sense.  If that's the case, then a God that cares about us seems a lot less likely to me.

 

In terms of your "experiment" idea, I do experiments.  Some with "lesser" organisms (e.g. bacteria) and some only in a computer (in silico).  To those things, I am essentially non-understanable at the level at which we interact.  And I'm good with that.  That's even desirable from my perspective.

 

However, I'm still limited by math.

 

Again, is it possible that God is beyond math and nature?  Yes.

 

I'm not sure what that would entail or mean, but I guess it is possible.

 

Does God have to be beyond math?

 

I don't see any reason to say that is a MUST.

 

Does God stop being God if we say that even God can't make 2+2= 5?

[Dan T.]

God may be all powerful, but Lee Trevino used to carry a one-iron during thunderstorms "because even God can't hit a one iron."

[Burgold]

I've always pictured God as an artist. A sculpter and painter who creates worlds and brings them to life through a mix of effort and inspiration. When the work reaches a certain stage it is set aside and at that point it changes sometimes due to simple erosion or cracks from drying pain and other times because the design within the work is meant to change. 

As a writer and painter, I've come to believe that the work is never finished. You can always edit more, tinker more, add more, but at one point you move on... You say, this is it. Sometimes, you can return to it and make some changes. Other times, you visit it and just don't recognize it. It's full of surprises, both delightful and disgusting. Still, the work exists outside of you whether in the interpretation of the critic or viewer or in the changes in the work itself.

 

I think God created a paradise. This world is immensely beautiful and so many  things work and make sense.  Mind you, man is doing its best to screw it up, but that's not the conversation we're having. God created the artwork... what has been done after that for the most part is not God's story, but ours.

 

 

 

Today, atheists try to paint on top of the canvas, replacing God with atoms that smash into each other causing big bangs. Others invent falsehoods for their own gain. A few simply try to do good or create beauty. Most stumble about blindly with God in their DNA, but not in their hearts no matter what verse they've memorized or can recite.

[Forehead]

I have no idea sometimes.  I like the "idea" of God, the hope that there's something better after this, but I have no idea.  I'm afraid I'm not a particularly good Christian.  I've accepted Jesus, and it just feels right to me, those perfect 70 degree days when I happen to be walking through the woods or out playing with my kids, that someone created this for us.  On the other hand, I almost never go to church because I'm too lazy about it, haven't baptized the kids, etc.

 

So who knows.  I know how I feel, but I'm not close-minded to the counter opinions of polite atheists, the rude ones I do my best to ignore.  I'll will say that I find the reading on this website fascinating.

 

http://www.near-death.com/

[Zguy28]

It led me to healthy agnosticism.  Which is maybe the same thing as turning people off religion, from a certain point of view. 

 

If God exists, I wouldn't presume to think I know what God wants or expects of me.  Or to assume that anything is wanted or expected at all.  Or that I matter more to God than a blade of grass.  But that's just me.  In some respects I envy people who have strong faith.  But I'm not going to be dishonest with myself and go through the motions on the chance that they're right.  Somehow I don't think God would be fooled

What if God revealed His existence through creation itself and revealed His mind and will through special revelation such as Scripture and the person of Jesus? If He did, is it then still presumption to know Him? Especially since He wants to be known?

[skinsmarydu]

I know how I feel

So does He. Don't sweat it...He made you. Just like you are.

All good.

[zoony]

Looks like this one is all cleared up