What is God?

[tshile]

I think if a god doesn't exist, then life is a sham.  We then have no purpose and have no relevance.  At best you can say our purpose is to propagate our species.  But then Hitler killing 6 million Jews doesn't matter, the human population has grown in size just fine.  Or maybe our purpose is just simply our individual happiness/thriving.  So why would I be upset about a cop killing an innocent person?  I plan on going fishing this weekend, I'll have a great time, I'll be happy as heck.

 

I truly have hope that my Christian beliefs are true.  Loving God and loving my neighbor add real purpose to my life and makes everything in life fall together.  If it isn't true, I'm no more important than the mold growing on the piece of bread on my counter.  That would be depressing.

 

I meant a sham in the terms that we understand the world. If God exists then everything we think we "know" about life (and know I mean have demonstrable proof of understandings, like science, not belief in something we cannot truly "know" like religious beliefs. which is in no way meant to belittle religious beliefs, it's simply to draw a distinction between faith and what we actually "know" through experience, trial and error, discovery, etc) becomes incorrect. Or at best - incomplete.

 

It is interesting to see the two sides though.

 

I reject the idea that without god we have no "purpose." Your purpose is to live your life. How you choose to do so is up to you. Just because there is no afterlife doesn't mean you cannot find purpose in your current life.

 

To extend that out to mean that mass murder doesn't matter seems to be way overboard to me. It does matter, as the mass murder has ended so many people's one life that they get. The lack of punishment in the afterlife doesn't change any of that to me.

 

I think you can have a purpose with or without God, and that the purposes for either can be one in the same. I can live a life I think God would desire for me, and still be happy with that if God doesn't exist because (conveniently) the aspects I think are important (the general sense of being a good person) and make me happy about the type of person I am (or try to be) happen to align with the aspects I think God would want.

 

But you can do that when you start looking at God, whether or not he exists, on your own terms and don't depend on other people settings the terms for you.

[Predicto]

So how did Man abandon the notion of a whole roster of Gods hanging out on Mt. Olympus and come to accept -  Jews, Muslims, and Christians all - one God?  Is Abraham the guy who said we don't need a whole team, we got one and only one?

 

Actually, yes.   All three of the great monotheistic religions lead back to Abraham.

[The 12th Commandment]

I truly have hope that my Christian beliefs are true.  Loving God and loving my neighbor add real purpose to my life and makes everything in life fall together.  If it isn't true, I'm no more important than the mold growing on the piece of bread on my counter.  That would be depressing.

On a planetary scale molds and fungi have more environmental impact on the earth than people do.  Don't short sell them.

[boobiemiles]

God is as simple as a blade of grass, or complex as the depth of our universe.  God is standing next to the ocean on a pier.  You are surrounded by nothing but power that can be subtle as a gentle wave or powerful as a tsunami. We try to give that power a name.  We call it God, Allah, Yarway, Buddha, or any host of names to make the concept more familiar.  That is what we do as human beings.  You have Christians believing Jesus Christ was God.  I step back and say do you know what you are talking about?  God created all of this. Hell was in existence before Satan said no mas to being second place. God is both the positive and negative, the Alpha and Omega.  I was sitting back thinking if all things exist by design, then has  God experienced the loss of a child, the death of a love one, the suffering of cancer? My concept of God gives me strength to over come racism, and other isms that effect of society.  From one light comes all the colors like a spectrum.  From one light comes the people.  SO we are all the same.  We all cry, laugh, and wish the best for the ones we love.  God is great.  Life is in place to prove our valor before we die.  But even death is just the beginning.  The soul is eternal.  Just like I said about the ocean, when you look out at the horizons you think you've seen everything, know everything.  But we know there is more going on under the surface, and it's depth runs deeper than we can fathom.

[Dan T.]

Actually, yes.   All three of the great monotheistic religions lead back to Abraham.

 

(Who likely wasn't a real person, but a patriarchal amalgam created from oral tradition.)

[HogNose]

"/thread"

 

[Zguy28]

(Who likely wasn't a real person, but a patriarchal amalgam created from oral tradition.)

Jesus believed Abraham was a real person. I think I'll take the word of a man who predicted his own death and resurrection and accomplished it,

[PeterMP]

 

but i'm supposed to get stumped on whether he can make 2+2 = 5? the answer to whether he can or cannot make 2+2 = 5 is supposed to provide real insight into the discussion? is the ability to completely change our minds, instantly and across the board, and completely rewrite our understanding of math without us knowing an acceptable way of making 2+2=5? because if he can read our thoughts and is all powerful, why can he not do that?

 it hardly seems like a reasonable test of whether something can or cannot exist when the said something is, by definition, not limited in the ways we are (or the ways we think everything else is.)

 

1.  I think you've mistaken s0crates point at some level.  s0crates was not trying to make a point about the existence of God.  He was just saying that logically, there are issues with an omnipotent being in terms of what is omnipotent.  It was more of a comment on the meaning/definition of omnipotent.

 

2.  Whether we know 2+2 is 4 doesn't change the fact that it is. Calculus might be a better example because you can actually talk about things before and after the discovery of calculus.

 

3.  Or you can think of some of the other examples he gave.  God is omnipotent and eternal.  Can he will himself out of existence?

[PeterMP]

Jesus believed Abraham was a real person. I think I'll take the word of a man who predicted his own death and resurrection and accomplished it,

 

1.  (not directed at you Zguy, but generally on point)  I thought historians had pretty much given up figuring out if Abraham was real historical figure or not.  The best answer to the question is that we don't know and realistically have no way of knowing and likely never will (without the invention of a time machine or such).

 

2.  (this is directed at you Zguy, but is getting a bit off topic) Do you hold the view that Jesus was all knowing?  Is it possible that Jesus' knowledge of at least some topics was based on the education he received as a human?

[Predicto]

(Who likely wasn't a real person, but a patriarchal amalgam created from oral tradition.)

 

Possibly.   I sure don't know.

[twa]

what kind of historian gives up looking?

[Dan T.]

Jesus believed Abraham was a real person. I think I'll take the word of a man who predicted his own death and resurrection and accomplished it,

 

Touche.

[CrypticVillain]

Man, out of all the "religious" threads that's ever been on ES, this one has skyrocketed to #1.

 

Slightly ahead of the old Daily Babe thread...

[Zguy28]

1.  (not directed at you Zguy, but generally on point)  I thought historians had pretty much given up figuring out if Abraham was real historical figure or not.  The best answer to the question is that we don't know and realistically have no way of knowing and likely never will (without the invention of a time machine or such).

 

2.  (this is directed at you Zguy, but is getting a bit off topic) Do you hold the view that Jesus was all knowing?  Is it possible that Jesus' knowledge of at least some topics was based on the education he received as a human?

#2. This is where the doctrine of the hypostatic union comes into play. Put simply, Jesus of Nazareth was fully God and fully human. 100% of each.

 

For a slightly more thorough treatment, I will be somewhat lazy (forgive me, short on time) and point you to a link:

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-omniscient.html

[alexey]

I meant a sham in the terms that we understand the world. If God exists then everything we think we "know" about life ...

becomes incorrect. Or at best - incomplete.

..

if all understanding becomes incorrect, then so does your understanding that everything becomes incorrect

[PeterMP]

what kind of historian gives up looking?

 

In any field of study, a key thing to do is to actually identify questions you can actually answer.

 

There are actually really smart people that spend a lot of time trying to answer questions that aren't answerable (at that time).

 

Einstein spent a good bit of time trying to come up with a classical unified theory field and his work in that area is generally considered unsuccessful and that part of Einstein's career unsuccessful.

 

If you look at that part of his career only, without out a doubt there are other physicists in that era that were more productive and more and more impactful.

 

Simply because they focused on more tractable problems.

[twa]

Power

 

“Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty? They are high as the heavens, what can you do? Deeper than Sheol, what can you know?” (Job 11:7–8).

I AM.

In any field of study, a key thing to do is to actually identify questions you can actually answer.

 

 

 

Sure ,take the easy way out 

 

focusing on more productive avenues is not giving up 

[Zguy28]

Power

 

“Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty? They are high as the heavens, what can you do? Deeper than Sheol, what can you know?” (Job 11:7–8).

I AM.

Right. God is ultimately unknowable in His totality, but knowable according to what He reveals about Himself and what we experience with Him.

[alexey]

Right. God is ultimately unknowable in His totality, but knowable according to what He reveals about Himself and what we experience with Him.

Of alll things that people consider to be his revelations, are they his actual revelations? If not, is it knowable which ones are true? If yes, how?

[s0crates]

That passage always bugged me. Job doesn't need a proof of God's power, he wants to know why God is unjust.

[drtdrums]

I'm tempted not to weigh in since I doubt any intellectual answer to a spiritual question can convey even my poor understanding. That said, I feel compelled to offer my pittance.

A beautiful woman must be experienced through a physical, psychological, and spiritual relationship to understand even a fraction of her essence. We can discuss bust size and hair color until we are blue in the face, but the man who is in a loving and mutual relationship with a beautiful woman has experienced Revelation. [insert jokes here].

The point is, of course, that anyone can try to talk about who or what God is, but it's pretty meaningless and actually gets one no closer to understanding. The only thing that brings even poor understanding is the relationship.

That said, there are some signposts, some spiritual markers that point is in the direction of Truth. Our souls reject the idea of a nasty or petty or powerless God, although a good many of those who claim to work in His name teach precisely that type of God.

When we witness love, grace, forgiveness, mercy, and sacrifice, we feel innately that if there -is- a God, THAT is what He is like.

For this and many reasons, this is why I say that the person of Jesus Christ is the FULL revelation of God. Anything that seems to contradict his actions, his life, his heart, is a lie about the character of God.

Of course, I type this having the advantage of being in a personal relationship with God through Christ. The difference in having the Spirit awakened in me and how I felt when I was deaf to His voice is night and day. It is intensely personal, and I understand so very little still, but the richness of life and the joy and peace I've experienced are the most real thing I have ever encountered. The best description I can apply to it is to rob from Limitless and call it spiritual NZT.

There are also some things I can tell you about what God is not. He cannot be found in legalism or religion. He is not vicious or uncaring. He is not powerless, even in darkness (I say this in the middle of the darkest 6 months of my life).

He constantly pokes fun at me gently. "Oh? You think so?" with a wryness in his voice. He never contradicts scripture but constantly points out truths I somehow missed for years. He terrifies me because he's always pushing me out of my comfort zone and to the end of myself, but he also always pushes me to Fear Not (fear being, I've found, the most deadly spiritual poison).

He is not a tame lion (my goodness, Lewis was amazing).

So God to me is love and goodness and a bit of a smartass who is constantly revealing more of life and His nature while I hold on with white knuckles.

But here I am, talking about a beautiful woman (if you'll excuse my metaphor again) to my ES buds who either already have one of their own or who think all of us in relationships are clinically insane.

So, Pax Christi. I'll shut up.

[Kosher Ham]

Why would you need to be more important than mold on bread ?

 

I prefer to be essentially irrelevant.

I also prefer to live my life justly and honestly...to make myself and others around me happy. I don't need to believe in God to be the person that I am.

[Zguy28]

Why would you need to be more important than mold on bread ?

 

I prefer to be essentially irrelevant.

I also prefer to live my life justly and honestly...to make myself and others around me happy. I don't need to believe in God to be the person that I am.

You are a walking contradiction. If you seek to make others happy or to live justly, that certainly makes you relevant.

[twa]

That passage always bugged me. Job doesn't need a proof of God's power, he wants to know why God is unjust.

 

and what was his conclusion?

 

add

or answer if ya wish

 

 “Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?”

[Zguy28]

Of alll things that people consider to be his revelations, are they his actual revelations? If not, is it knowable which ones are true? If yes, how?

The Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are His progressive revelation. Jesus was the ultimate or climax of revelation. It all leads to Him.

 

I read a great book on this topic once called Reinventing Jesus. It is a positive apologetic for the reliability of the historical Jesus as revealed in the New Testament.