MartinC Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 He barely played in 2011 it was like his rookie season pretty much. He had the lowest percentage of drops the next year and only dropper 2 passes that season and got better http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2013/ Just a general comment here and not directed at any one member - lets keep this conversation on the subject of the thread. If anyone wants to continue the back and forth on Hankerson take it to a thread where that fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 That's the most important part many around here seems to easily forgot. Everyone's bashing Jay for the musical chairs, but he didn't play it wrongly in any way. - Griffin get injured and he turn to Cousins who is #2 on the Depth chart: OK Move. - Cousins turn into TO machine one game out of two nearly and goes to McCoy. OK Move. - McCoy wins Dallas, then Griffin is healthy. As #1 on the depth chart, he reverts back to Griffin. OK Move as well. McCoy didn't had such an impressive performance to throw Griffin away. He was doing OK as a backup and that's it. - Griffin plays horribly, he have no opportunity to go back to McCoy who stepped as #2 on the depth chart. OK Move. - McCoy gets hurt, he goes back to Griffin who shows some kind of improvment for the last games. OK Move again. In terms of handling the QB position, Gruden did what he can with what he had at hand. The fact is that of the three QB that were on the roster, no matter which camp you stand for, Robert or Kirk, the only one that didn't let Gruden down, was the third string QB. Griffin and Cousins both had their flows last year. To the defense of Cousins, he really had only two bad games (NYG and ARI). And the TO machine he is didn't throw a pick against SEA, with a pretty good game. In fact, this year he was playing good one game out of two. Finally, looking at situational on NFL.com for Griffin and Cousins it stood out that Griffin sucked at two things: - RZ Offense. - Playing ahead. His stats are absolutely horrible when we're leading. And Cousins his horrible coming into 3rd Quarter and during two minutes drills. All of these seems like troubles with the mental aspect of the game for both. Did you purposely leave out Kirk's two games where he basically looked like an all pro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbunny Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Did you purposely leave out Kirk's two games where he basically looked like an all pro? should I read some irony here or didn't you read the part about kirk having only two real bad games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 RG3's last 14 games: 240/370 64.9 comp% 2728 yds 11 TDs 9 ints 11 fumbles Cousins last (only) 14 games: 240/407 59 comp% 3030 yds 18 TDs 19 ints 6 fumbles It's not like you can tell from looking at these numbers which has the vastly superior skill set and the greater potential... If only you could judge skill set and potential from looking at raw counting stats alone football would be simple wouldn't it? Also, whether intentional or not the above is a obviously skewed comparison. Sure they're both 14 games samples. But, those 14 games represent Kirk's career and those 14 games do not represent Griffin's career. If you want to compare apples to apples on truly meaningful stats they are out there. It should go without saying that we realize physical skill set alone doesn't ensure success but since you brought up skill set and potential there really shouldn't be any honest question between Griffin and Kirk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 If only you could judge skill set and potential from looking at raw counting stats alone football would be simple wouldn't it? Also, whether intentional or not the above is a obviously skewed comparison. Sure they're both 14 games samples. But, those 14 games represent Kirk's career and those 14 games do not represent Griffin's career. If you want to compare apples to apples on truly meaningful stats they are out there. It should go without saying that we realize physical skill set alone doesn't ensure success but since you brought up skill set and potential there really shouldn't be any honest question between Griffin and Kirk. Well, if you're talking about a combine workout, I'd take Griffin all day long. If you're talking about playing QB in the NFL, in a professional NFL offense, where you have to drop back, read the defense and throw the ball on time w/ accuracy, I think Kirk has better skills for that.... at least he does right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins island connection Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 RG3's last 14 games: 240/370 64.9 comp% 2728 yds 11 TDs 9 ints 11 fumbles Cousins last (only) 14 games: 240/407 59 comp% 3030 yds 18 TDs 19 ints 6 fumbles It's not like you can tell from looking at these numbers which has the vastly superior skill set and the greater potential... Those do look eerily similar, except for the aspect of scoring/ints. Personally, I don't have the patience to dig up the actual games each QB played, which does make a difference in the overall production/ball movement. But I will admit it was a kick in the balls when we lost to Tampa; not claiming that we're any better than some of the opponents we've played against, but damn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I come into the stadium every once in a while in the offseason.... look around a little bit, until my ears start to bleed from the incessant whining... and then i back away slowly. (note, this isn't aimed at the last post.... i didn't read any of teh posts on the last page....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epochalypse Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 If only you could judge skill set and potential from looking at raw counting stats alone football would be simple wouldn't it? Also, whether intentional or not the above is a obviously skewed comparison. Sure they're both 14 games samples. But, those 14 games represent Kirk's career and those 14 games do not represent Griffin's career. If you want to compare apples to apples on truly meaningful stats they are out there. It should go without saying that we realize physical skill set alone doesn't ensure success but since you brought up skill set and potential there really shouldn't be any honest question between Griffin and Kirk. actually jamesmadisonskins brought up potential and skill set when it appeared he said only rg3 had them. My post was in response. So umm yeah.Also I realize that cousins only played 14 games and I chose that grouping to show that this is what those 2 qbs accomplished the last 14 times they stepped on the field for us. And my overall point was neither was overly impressive, so to claim with certainty that rg3 possessed the potential and the skill set to be a franchise qb while cousins did not based on what theyve shown the last 14 games I dont think its that apparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsailand Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Ah the old, "well let's make up a stat so it makes my guy look better" routine. Better than the previous "let's ignore sacks so my guy doesn't look as horrible as he is" routine. But I did not invent the idea of including sack numbers as a major part of evaluating QB perfomance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saul Goodman Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 While I don;t think McCoy should be brought back (and he wont be), he's better than the other guys, which is a sad state of affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor703 Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 While I don;t think McCoy should be brought back (and he wont be), he's better than the other guys, which is a sad state of affairs. Yeah I don't agree. RGIII and Cousins are both better qbs than mccoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 While I don;t think McCoy should be brought back (and he wont be), he's better than the other guys, which is a sad state of affairs. Are you here hoping that we will all become Eagles fans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbunny Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Are you here hoping that we will all become Eagles fans? And rename this board Extremeagles? Don't even think about it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saul Goodman Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Are you here hoping that we will all become Eagles fans? im talking colt mccoy not lesean mccoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncr2h Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Griffin is one of the most cavalier with the football in the entire league. Stop using that as a point to support Griffin. He leads the league in fumbles since 2012 despite having missed almost an entire season when you add up all the injuries and benchings. Imagine if Lebron James was the all time leader in points in NBA history despite being only 30 years old - that's what we're talking about here. And ints and fumbles aren't the only drive killers that give away good field position to the other team. How about sacks? How crazy is this - in the same season that Griffin was on pace to take the most sacks in NFL history, Cousins had one of the lowest sack rates in Redskins history among QBs who played 5 or more games. It can't be the o line - for every sack that Griffin takes that's the line's fault, he takes 2 that are his own fault. Griffin should have been traded already. His trade value will never be higher. We would have been lucky to salvage a 6th round pick for him, but that's better than nothing, which is what it looks like we're going to get. He is damaged goods in the most literal sense of the word - even if you think he will have elite skills one day (a laughable notion), he will never play enough games to realize it. His claim to fame is a season where he went 8-5. That's the glory year that everybody is trying to bring back. 8-5. Ravens is a cousins win, Browns is a cousins win, Atlanta I'd either a wash or a cousins loss. Sorry, you don't get credit for being down by 8 points with 2 minutes left when your backup has to come in and literally be perfect to squeeze out a win against all odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncr2h Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Forgot to add that Cousins historically low sack rate in 2014 came against 2 teams ranked in the top 3 in the league in sacks, whereas Griffin played against mostly average sack teams. The idea for the trade is this - first, even if Griffin ends up being elite he will never play enough to get you anything meaningful. Second, the best thing for the team is competition at every position including QB, and griffin's own fans acknowledge that he needs the offense to be tailored to his skill set to succeed. Therefore, in a preseason where you are virtually required to be as vanilla as possible, Griffin is at an enormous disadvantage and therefore will not win an open competition. Third, if you have a guy worth a 6th round pick taking up a roster spot and not doing anything else, you should trade him to get value so that you can bring in someone else who might have a future here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor703 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I'm just curious ncr2h, what are you going to post about when Cousins is no longer on the roster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvernon Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 You don't get rid of either right now. Cousins is a long-term back-up plan. What if Griffin is a super star this year? What do you do? Keep him or trade him? You keep him, unless he desperately wants out. If the return is there, and Cousins can be your guy...have to think that would be the go-to. If someone wants Cousins by the deadline, you trade him instead. You can only keep one of your 2012 quarterbacks going into 2016. One will be moved this year, and I think it will be RG3 because you cannot trust that he'll work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncr2h Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Griffin is not an option. The best case scenario that has even a remote chance of coming true is he figures out how to play like Russell Wilson. In that scenario, he is Russell Wilson with 2 blown acls, 2 concussions, and a major ankle injury. It's actually not a good scenario because even the real, fully healthy Russell Wilson is about to put his team in a similar situation as Joe Flacco where you're overpaying for a QB who is not bad but not really all that great and certainly not worth the cap hot that they're pulling. And in sports with salary caps, the name of the game is outperforming your contract. Even in dream land where rg3 is good, you can't afford to allocate a lot of cap space to him. Cousins may or may not be that guy. I have a problem with people closing the book on him when he actually played pretty well for us. He did a lot of things right but unfortunately had 2 big meltdowns. Griffin is done at this point - you've seen him for 35 games or whatever. How many QBs in NFL history have played as poorly as Griffin has since the Ravens game in 2012,and gone on to be elite passers? For every Steve young you will find 500 guys who didn't pan out,and Steve young didn't have as horrible an injury history as rg3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Cousins may or may not be that guy. I have a problem with people closing the book on him when he actually played pretty well for us. He did a lot of things right but unfortunately had 2 big meltdowns. You may have a point about it being early to close the book on Cousins - he has only played 14 games. But the claim he 'only had 2 big meltdowns" is way off the mark in why I personally dont see Cousins as anything more than a career backup. My problem with Cousins is his performance in situations were the defense is expecting pass. See his 3rd down stats (which I have already posted several times which are WAY worse than Griffins on 3rd and 4 plus) and the way his numbers drop off in the second half compared to the first half. Cousins averages under 6 yards per attempt on 3rd and 4 plus (passer rating 46) and only 2 yards per attempt on 3rd and 9 plus. His stats also drop off when blitzed (again his stats are WAY worse than Griffin in this area). On first and second down his stats though are outstanding (if you overlook the interceptions) - here he can use play action against simpler coverage schemes and overall he is very very effective. Then you add on top the lack of post snap reads and really bad interceptions as the cherry on the cake. Cousins problems IMO are between his ears in the way he handles the pressure of game situations when the offense is on his shoulders and how he follows one bad mistake with another. Those kind of issues are way harder to fix than mechancial flaws IMO and experience. I hope Cousins proves me wrong. I'm a Redskins fan not an RGIII fan - dont care which one of them makes that QB spot his own as long as one does. Of the two I still have more hope for RGIII than Cousins but my money right now would be on us drafting a QB high in 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncr2h Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I think you're trying to create a narrative to fit this particular stat line that you see as a big differentiator. In reality, Griffin is the one who benefits from defenses not expecting pass. His entire game is built around his legs, and he has proven that he cannot win games when throwing even the NFL average number of pass attempts in a game. So you go into the game saying that you're going to shut down griffin's legs, contain him in the pocket, and if he beats you with his arm so be it. You can live with that because it's such a rarity with him. 0 wins when throwing 37+ pass attempts, and overall horrible record unless he throws fewer than 28 passes (NFL average attempts per game is 36) speaks for itself. Cousins in the other hand is routinely throwing the ball 35, 40 times per game. You're expecting passes when cousins is QB - how many games has he played where we actually ran it more than we passed? My guess is its Jacksonville that was the only game where we threw more than passed with cousins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 "In praise of volume" You love that arbitrary statistical barometer for QB success.How does Russell Wilson stack up in your volume passing based assessment of QB play? Also here are some other stats curious as to your opinion on the below: 2.5 seconds or less: % of throws under 2.5 seconds/Attempts Comp% Sacks QB ratingRob.........................................49%/122 atts.................80......................7.........................100Colt.........................................51%/74 atts...................74......................2...........................89Kirk.........................................60%/126 atts.................70......................2..........................102 2.6 seconds or more:% of throws over 2.6/Attempts Comp% Sacks QB ratingRob........................51%/92 atts............................53......................26.............................66Colt........................49%/54 atts............................67......................15...........................106Kirk.........................40%/78 atts...........................49........................6..............................62 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I think you're trying to create a narrative to fit this particular stat line that you see as a big differentiator. In reality, Griffin is the one who benefits from defenses not expecting pass..I'm looking at situational stats on 3rd and 4 plus. How many defenses do you estimate were not expecting pass on 3rd and 4 plus?What's your theory for the big drop off in Cousins performance on 3rd and passing downs? Or when blitzed? Or his drop off in the second half versus the first half? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncr2h Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 While I appreciate the amount of time it probably took to put that statline together, I'm not really sure what it tells us. QB rating is not a very good statistic to use when evaluating the difference between rg3 and cousins, as rg3 led the league in failed completions whereas cousins had the 4th fewest. If we keep that in mind, it would tell us that Cousins generally makes extremely sound decisions that move the offense forward in meaningful ways. Which is more or less what the majority of fans say when they compare cousins to rg3 - when cousins is in, our offense moves the ball, whereas with rg3 we're dink and dunk at best but more often than not we just can't move it period. I think you may be (not sure, just trying to guess) trying to use the statline to say that Cousins is a 1 read QB whereas rg3 is the one using multiple reads but there are a few problems with that. For example, if cousins is a 1 read QB and the offense moves so well with cousins at QB, why isn't Griffin settling for the first read? If the first read is always so wide open, why doesn't Griffin throw it? This would indicate that rg3 is making poor presnap reads, doesn't understand when receivers are open or not (I. E. To Griffin, the guy looks covered but for cousins the guy looks open), or can't throw with anticipation (I. E. Cousins sees space to throw the ball to first read, Griffin does not). As for martinc, the difference between 1st and 2nd half is almost certainly due to small sample size. In 2012,you would have been saying the opposite - that he went something like 7 for 7 in the 4th quarter against the Browns as we iced the game through the air rather than by pounding it out on the ground. This year he had 2 major meltdowns in 2nd halves as he saw the games - and likely his NFL future - slipping out of hand despite solid first half performances. The drop off in the second halves versus Jacksonville and philly were minor as he still had excellent second halves, and against Seattle he had a late 4th quarter td pass that potentially could have put us back in the game if our defense had gotten a stop. As for 3rd down and passing situations I'm not sure if that's cousins specific, or something that you see for all QBs. Even if it is, I'm not sure it even matters, as we saw that the offense moved like crazy with cousins behind center compared to rg3 and to a lesser extent mccoy. If he's able to throw for 300 plus per game on first and second downs, how much do we really care that he has trouble on third downs? A lot of stats that seem like they may be QB specific are actually trends among all QBs. For example, rg3's excellent record when throwing 28 or fewer passes in a game may seem like a good sign. However, across the league your likelihood of winning is inversely related to the # of pass attempts. In other words, it is true of basically any QB that they will be likely to win a game where they only had to throw 28 (or fewer) attempts. Allow me to explain it in a different way: In NFL playoff history, there have been 35 games where a QB threw 50+ attempts. In those games, Tom Brady is 5-1. All other QBs are 2-27. It takes elite talent to win while throwing 35, 40, 50 times in a game,and even more so in the playoffs where the John Becks and Jamaica Russells have already been sent home for the season. The league average pass attempts per game is 37. Rg3 is something like 0-11 when throwing 37 or more times. So who is elite? Brady or Rg3? Will rg3 ever be elite? All signs point to "hell no". It's time to try something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 ncr, nobody cares what you think. Seriously, you're like a boring broken record that's pretty much always wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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