ESPN - Redskins QB thoughts: Kirk Cousins and more

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Conversely allow RG3 the same opportunity

 

Yep, I've addressed that too. I just want one of them to take the bull by the horns. The reasons I'm leaning Cousins going into year 4 are: 

 

1) Griffin has had more chances and is still further behind

2) Griffin has shown he's far less likely to make it through an entire year healthy (in college and the pros)

[Taylor703]

I honestly can't believe they've decided to keep them both on the roster again. It's so puzzling considering how toxic this situation is and will continue to be. Pick one, move on from the other. I'm so sick of seeing QBs yanked in and out of the lineup. Gruden needs to understand that they have to be developed. Enough with this crap.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I honestly can't believe they've decided to keep them both on the roster again. It's so puzzling considering how toxic this situation is and will continue to be. Pick one, move on from the other. I'm so sick of seeing QBs yanked in and out of the lineup. Gruden needs to understand that they have to be developed. Enough with this crap.

 

I am siding more and more with Sheehan. It might be a scenario that they want to resolve itself. Here is a possible series of true statements that would lead to this decision: 

 

- Gruden favors Cousins and believes he can outplay Griffin

- Team believes that it would be a negative perception to trade or cut Griffin

 

This way, you let Cousins outplay Griffin from mini-camp on and then give him the job. You can always trade Griffin at some point after that (for not too much less than you'd get today) and extend Cousins if he plays well enough. 

[Taylor703]

My problem with the "Gruden favors Cousins" stuff is the fact that we don't even know if Gruden is a good headcoach? He certainly didn't display that last year. If he wants Cousins than that's fine but if Cousins bombs and Griffin succeeds elsewhere after you move him, heads are going to roll. Not to mention how pissed the fanbase will be.

[grego]

All that I saw when I watched the Hankerson video was a tall possession wide receiver. Above average hands, below average in space, below average in traffic. I think he is definitely worth a roster spot, and I think that if he can learn to catch in traffic better, he can be a good #2 in this league. But thats what I see, a solid possession receiver.

 

he led the team in drops that year, according to this site http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2012/

 

but, to be fair, he's been better since then. (of course, he's hardly played, so...)

[TD_washingtonredskins]

My problem with the "Gruden favors Cousins" stuff is the fact that we don't even know if Gruden is a good headcoach? He certainly didn't display that last year. If he wants Cousins than that's fine but if Cousins bombs and Griffin succeeds elsewhere after you move him, heads are going to roll. Not to mention how pissed the fanbase will be.

 

I suppose so, but that's the case everywhere. You almost have to let the head coach play who he wants to play. None of the great head coaches got where they were without being extended some faith and trust. So, either let Gruden make the call as to who plays or fire him and find someone you trust more. The WORST way to do this is as an organization is to decide on a player and find a coach who agrees...

[MattFancy]

I am siding more and more with Sheehan. It might be a scenario that they want to resolve itself. Here is a possible series of true statements that would lead to this decision: 

 

- Gruden favors Cousins and believes he can outplay Griffin

- Team believes that it would be a negative perception to trade or cut Griffin

 

This way, you let Cousins outplay Griffin from mini-camp on and then give him the job. You can always trade Griffin at some point after that (for not too much less than you'd get today) and extend Cousins if he plays well enough. 

 

Once you get to Training Camp, the trade value for either of these 2 is pretty much nothing. No team will give the Skins anything of value when they know they can pick either one up next offseason. If you're going to trade one of them, now is the time to do it.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Once you get to Training Camp, the trade value for either of these 2 is pretty much nothing. No team will give the Skins anything of value when they know they can pick either one up next offseason. If you're going to trade one of them, now is the time to do it.

 

What do you think you could get for Griffin right now (I think maybe a 3rd)? What do you think you could get for him sometime between training camp and the trade deadline in October (I think maybe a 5th)? 

 

I think the ship has sailed on getting anything substantial for either guy since we are one year away from FA now. Therefore, it's worth more to the Redskins to make sure they see what they have in both than it would be to unload one right now. 

[Alexa]

Hopefully the 2015 RG3 is more decisive. Hopefully the 2015 Cousins is more cautious.

Could not agree more. However, give me the guy that's willing to take some chances, and just doesn't want to play small ball.

[skinzplay]

Whoever can help this team win is the guy I want behind center. If Kyle were still running the offense and RGIII was healthy, I think you roll with RGIII because Kyle was able to design an offense that played to his strengths. But I think that Cousins is the best QB on the roster to run Gruden's offense. Even though he had some INTs, I think having a bona fide, dedicated QB coach will work wonders for Cousins more so than Griffin. I like 'em both, and as I said, whoever can get us back over .500 and looking like a winner again, that's who I'm gonna roll with.

[Taylor703]

Could not agree more. However, give me the guy that's willing to take some chances, and just doesn't want to play small ball.

You mean the guy who's won one of his starts? That risk taker?

[TSO]

My problem with the "Gruden favors Cousins" stuff is the fact that we don't even know if Gruden is a good headcoach? He certainly didn't display that last year. If he wants Cousins than that's fine but if Cousins bombs and Griffin succeeds elsewhere after you move him, heads are going to roll. Not to mention how pissed the fanbase will be.

 

And he can be a terrible head coach while still being right about Griffin not being able to get it done. Or, better yet, what if Griffin bombs and Cousins succeeds elsewhere? Does that make it better?  

 

Really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

 

He was able to take a clearly lesser talent (than Griffin) in Dalton, who also came from a spread college offense, and do well with him. It's why we hired him in the first place, because we wanted Robert to become a more traditional pro-QB (I know, everyone forgot about that and now it's common knowledge that Griffin should be in an "offense that suits him"... which is code for me that he's extremely limited).

 

To claim he has no ability to evaluate QBs is a bit ridiculous, to say the least. We've got Scot now, too, so I'm sure they're talking about it daily.

 

This whole narrative that Gruden is just a total idiot is extremely annoying (whether it ends up true or not) because it comes from the same group of posters who were murdering Mike and Kyle for the offense they placed Griffin in and were signing the praises of the Gruden hire because now "Robert has someone who will work with him, not against him". There was a million posts last offseason relaying that sentiment.

 

Now that Gruden has shown he's not an obsessed fan boy with regards to Robert they've completely turned on him to the point of ignoring anything he's ever done as a football coach. Same exact thing they did with Kyle. Yet, they wanted to go back to more of what Mike and Kyle were doing with Robert. The one consistency is their total trashing of anyone who coaches Robert. It's amazing.

 

Gruden might end up being terrible. He might not be HC material... but that doesn't change his success previous to coming here and his ability to develop young players on offense.  

 

It's like, instead of looking at the clear issues Robert has with his game, they have an intense focus on trying to undermine his coaches. Enough already. Most can see right through it.

 

I hope Robert or Kirk succeed, in the end. Don't care which one. Just want one to really get ahead. I'm not sure who is closer. I thought it was Cousins for a while, but after his total mental breakdown last season I don't know if he can handle the pressure anymore. Griffin has so many issues I don't want to get into it now. It's depressing to think about, honestly.  

[MattFancy]

What do you think you could get for Griffin right now (I think maybe a 3rd)? What do you think you could get for him sometime between training camp and the trade deadline in October (I think maybe a 5th)? 

 

I think the ship has sailed on getting anything substantial for either guy since we are one year away from FA now. Therefore, it's worth more to the Redskins to make sure they see what they have in both than it would be to unload one right now. 

 

I don't think a team would give much of anything for Cousins or Griffin between TC and the start of the season, unless it's very early in TC. Why would teams deal for a QB midseason when they can wait until the offseason and not have to give up a pick?

 

If we don't trade either one before TC, I doubt either gets traded after. There would be no trade market for a guy who just lost a starting QB spot and who is a FA the next season.

 

Would you want the Skins to trade a pick in that situation? I say no.

[Taylor703]

In all honesty I think it's much worse if Griffin succeeds elsewhere as opposed to Cousins. We didn't spend multiple first round picks on Cousins and then give up on him. And this idea that Gruden loves Cousins is lost on me as well. He could've continued playing Cousins and giving him very valuable development time yet benched him and made him inactive. It did Cousins no favors to sit on the sidelines in street clothes.

My feelings are Gruden won't be here much longer. Scot is going to want his own guy in here and I can promise you it's not Gruden. You really think Scot didn't have this talk with Snyder? I'm sure Scot told him that he'd give Gruden a chance but he's on a very short rope.

And I don't particularly care if you think I'm crushing Gruden because I'm an "obsessed fanboy". I wanted Gruden hired and I felt that way up until he started playing musical chairs at the QB position. I didn't want Cousins bench for McCoy and I didn't want RGIII benched for McCoy. McCoy sucks and has sucked for the majority of his career. The fact that he benched two young, developing QBs for an journeyman QB with no future as a starter in this league pissed me off. My feelings are that he's in over his head and if you think I'm being a fanboy than so be it.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I don't think a team would give much of anything for Cousins or Griffin between TC and the start of the season, unless it's very early in TC. Why would teams deal for a QB midseason when they can wait until the offseason and not have to give up a pick?

 

If we don't trade either one before TC, I doubt either gets traded after. There would be no trade market for a guy who just lost a starting QB spot and who is a FA the next season.

 

Would you want the Skins to trade a pick in that situation? I say no.

 

That's fine...the actual return for Griffin wasn't really even a major aspect of my post. The point I am trying to make is that they are both on the team now because you let it play out organically and choose the guy who plays the best.

 

The only way I believe that would have been a horrible decision is if you would really lose trade value on one of them. Since I don't believe you would get much for either guy after last season, it really doesn't benefit anyone by trading them away today. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

In all honesty I think it's much worse if Griffin succeeds elsewhere as opposed to Cousins. We didn't spend multiple first round picks on Cousins and then give up on him. And this idea that Gruden loves Cousins is lost on me as well. He could've continued playing Cousins and giving him very valuable development time yet benched him and made him inactive. It did Cousins no favors to sit on the sidelines in street clothes.

My feelings are Gruden won't be here much longer. Scot is going to want his own guy in here and I can promise you it's not Gruden. You really think Scot didn't have this talk with Snyder? I'm sure Scot told him that he'd give Gruden a chance but he's on a very short rope.

And I don't particularly care if you think I'm crushing Gruden because I'm an "obsessed fanboy". I wanted Gruden hired and I felt that way up until he started playing musical chairs at the QB position. I didn't want Cousins bench for McCoy and I didn't want RGIII benched for McCoy. McCoy sucks and has sucked for the majority of his career. The fact that he benched two young, developing QBs for an journeyman QB with no future as a starter in this league pissed me off. My feelings are that he's in over his head and if you think I'm being a fanboy than so be it.

 

From a perception standpoint or the concern about being on NFL Network's Top 10 for some obscure category, you're probably right...it's worse for us if Griffin leaves and succeeds somewhere else. But, objectively it really doesn't matter. If we keep a bad QB and unload a good one it just means that we continue to struggle at either 1) evaluating talent or 2) grooming players. 

 

I would rather make the decision based on evidence and not draft status, salary, marketing, etc. If Cousins can play QB better for Jay Gruden, then let Gruden start him. Period. Whatever happens after that shouldn't really matter since you're making the best decision at that point in time for your team. Belichick stuck with Brady when most of America thought Bledsoe should have gotten his job back (obligatory disclaimer that I'm not comparing Cousins to Brady). That move is always forgotten, but at the time he was riding a lanky, second-year player over a consensus franchise QB who had already taken the franchise to a Super Bowl.

 

This is continually our biggest problem as a franchise...we hire people with good resumes but don't let them do for us what they did to build that resume. We hire good coaches but tell them who to play. We hire good personnel guys but tell them who to acquire. We hire good PR guys but tell them what messages to send. Hire guys and get out of their way. If it gets to the point where you don't trust them or want to give them anymore leash, fire them. I'd rather see Snyder do what Jones does in Dallas because at least JJ owns the fact that he's a meddling owner (not to mention he has SOME level of football knowledge...enough to allow him to field an average team over the past couple decades). Snyder tries to hide the fact that he is pulling strings and mandating that certain players are acquired or given starting jobs.  

[Peregrine]

What I keep coming back to is the best pick you are going to get for either of them maybe a 4th rounder.  Is it more valuable to have a 4th round pick that may have a 20% chance of panning out, or knowing for SURE that either one of them is a franchise QB, or neither of them is.  

 

If you trade one of them before the season, you dont get to see that, and I think any team in the NFL would gladly give up having a 4th round picks for decades for a franchise QB.  Im not saying either of them are, but the reward just seems much to small.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

What I keep coming back to is the best pick you are going to get for either of them maybe a 4th rounder.  Is it more valuable to have a 4th round pick that may have a 20% chance of panning out, or knowing for SURE that either one of them is a franchise QB, or neither of them is.  

 

If you trade one of them before the season, you dont get to see that, and I think any team in the NFL would gladly give up having a 4th round picks for decades for a franchise QB.  Im not saying either of them are, but the reward just seems much to small.

 

Good post. 

 

You did a much better job than I did of explaining why I don't think it's bad that they are both still here. If someone wants to argue that they should have unloaded one of them for much more compensation a while back, they would have a point (granted it would be with 20/20 hindsight vision). But at this point, there's virtually no value we are losing so we might as well hold onto the assets and hope one pans out. 

[skins/psu1981]

IIRC interceptions have always been something of a problem for Kirk, they didn't just start when he joined the NFL, they just got worse - and that's my issue with him, he hasn't shown any sign of getting better the more games he gets.

 

That's not to say I'm sold on RGIII either, they both make mistakes. I'm not sure Griffin really accepts how much he has to improve. In a way having so much natural talent can be something of a hindrance when making the step up to being a professional; those with a little less ability are used to having to work at every aspect of their game to get ahead.

 

Right now, we're stuck with one QB who looks like a decent backup, and one who has the talent but isn't delivering on the field. I can see both being gone, but not before next season starts.

My god. He has played 9 freaking games in his career with 5 consecutive games being the most. You guys make it seem like he has been given 35+ games like RG3. He has never had the opportunity going into a season to play QB as a starter. Lets hope '15 is his first chance

Good post. 

 

You did a much better job than I did of explaining why I don't think it's bad that they are both still here. If someone wants to argue that they should have unloaded one of them for much more compensation a while back, they would have a point (granted it would be with 20/20 hindsight vision). But at this point, there's virtually no value we are losing so we might as well hold onto the assets and hope one pans out. 

Exactly!! Might as well continue the progress with these two QBs then to try to assume that we could ever in our wild imaginations find a true franchise/elite QB.

[Epochalypse]

You mean the guy who's won one of his starts? That risk taker?

Kirk's record last year as the starter was 1-4.

RG3's record last year as the starter was 2-5.  RG3 got credit for the JAX win even though he left very early (Kirk came in and did well) so he really only had 1 win.

Colt's record last year as the starter was 1-3.

 

So which guy you talking about?

[Taylor703]

My god. He has played 9 freaking games in his career with 5 consecutive games being the most. You guys make it seem like he has been given 35+ games like RG3. He has never had the opportunity going into a season to play QB as a starter. Lets hope '15 is his first chance

He's been given the opportunity to earn the job twice now and bombed horribly both times. Shanahan basically told the world his system was being held back by RGIII and that he could win with Cousins, that failed miserably. Gruden wanted to start Cousins out of camp because he believed Cousins to be the better player and when RGIII got hurt and Gruden got his wish just like Shanahan that bombed as well. He's basically the Taylor Jacobs of QBs. He looks great in practice but when the bullets start flying he's just another guy.

And it would be one thing if Cousins wasn't familiar with Grudens offense but he's been playing in this style of offense his whole life. He was groomed for this and yet teams are still able to bait him into interceptions. My feelings are that this is Cousins ceiling, he won't get much better than what we've seen. He's essentially a Ryan Fitzpatrick type QB. He'll have a big game here or there but overall he's not a difference maker.

If Gruden wants to roll with Cousins than that's fine however if Cousins bombs and I suspect he will, it should cost Gruden his job. This idea that we aren't any good because we don't give anyone time is silly. We aren't any good because we keep hiring the wrong people.

Kirk's record last year as the starter was 1-4.

RG3's record last year as the starter was 2-5. RG3 got credit for the JAX win even though he left very early (Kirk came in and did well) so he really only had 1 win.

Colt's record last year as the starter was 1-3.

So which guy you talking about?

How many games has Cousins won as a starter in his career where he played the entire game?

[JamesMadisonSkins]

I'm not really sure I have ever understood the love for Cousins. He's the definition of a JAG. Best case scenario is he's the next generation of Kyle Orton/Matt Cassel ...

 

At least RGIII has the potential and skill-set to be a franchise QB. If it's not gonna be RGIII it's not gonna be either one, and we are going to be back at the well in 2016 looking for a QB. So I'm not sure I will ever understand this insistence that Cousins be given a shot ... almost like everyone just hates RGIII for the sake of hating him because he's an easy scapegoat.

 

In my mind, there's a 40% chance RGIII re-emerges and becomes a franchise-caliber player.

 

Cousins stands at about 5% ...

 

and a 55% chance the franchise QB isn't on this roster ...

 

So why the hell are you going to go with Cousins over RGIII in the last year to see who is the franchise QB? Just makes 0 sense. You go all-in on the guy that gives you the best chance of becoming that guy. 

[Epochalypse]

How many games has Cousins won as a starter in his career where he played the entire game?

2 I believe

 

CLE game in his rookie year.

TEN this past year.

 

He's lost 7 starts.  PHI, NYG, ARI, SEA last year and ATL, DAL and NYG to finish out the hell that was 2013.

 

I posted that because I found it odd you would use only having 1 win to highlight a QB when fact is all of our QBs pretty much fail in the win category.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Kirk's record last year as the starter was 1-4.

RG3's record last year as the starter was 2-5.  RG3 got credit for the JAX win even though he left very early (Kirk came in and did well) so he really only had 1 win.

Colt's record last year as the starter was 1-3.

 

So which guy you talking about?

 

Kirk fan here, but in fairness I would bet Cousins is getting credit for the Tennessee win (all Colt). 

 

I'm not really hammering him for that, by the way. He did more than enough as a QB to win the Eagle game and lost, so it evens out. 

 

Colt, pretty clearly sadly, was the most consistent and steady QB in 2014. But that's not really what this debate is about. 

[Taylor703]

Kirk fan here, but in fairness I would bet Cousins is getting credit for the Tennessee win (all Colt).

I'm not really hammering him for that, by the way. He did more than enough as a QB to win the Eagle game and lost, so it evens out.

Colt, pretty clearly sadly, was the most consistent and steady QB in 2014. But that's not really what this debate is about.

I think it's fair to give Kirk the Jaguars game though even considering he didn't start. He did win that game.