2014 Official All 22 Coaches Film Thread - Nothing But All 22 Questions and Observations

[Jumbo]

Thanks much to you guys who are making this another good football thread 

[TheGoodBits]

edit- wrong thread for this discussion 

Thanks much to you guys who are making this another good football thread 

 

Indeed. Griffin specific comment withdrawn for lack of relevance. 

[Skins Wingman]

I can't believe how they've totally gone away from Garcon after he was the best WR in the NFL for YAC a few years ago.

They need to be throwing 4-5 times a game down field to Jackson and Garcon should get some looks too when they think its going to Jackson.

 

if you mean garcon deep, we've tried that and he keeps dropping the ball

[darrelgreenie]

However similar to your argument about the running game its something you have to commit to and put in the practice time. It needs a lot of repetition to develop the muscle memory and have the timing down pat.

 

We need to get some things we can hang our hat on on passing downs as well though and against zone coverage.

 

I think the Griffin's game against the Bucs was the result of a passing game with Griffin/Jay that is still developing and searching for an identity. In watching and re-watching the Bucs game I came away thinking that Griffin was unsure of what to do/where to go one some of the plays. Almost like he didn't "know" some of the plays. And for me that's a coaching issue as much as a player issue. The QB coach/playcaller have to have a feel for the plays the QB knows/executes at high level.

Anyhow...here's one of the few well executed plays against Cover-2:

 

 

OPEN TO ALL:

 

If you have 1 play you want a cut-up

post the game, quarter and time and I'll see if SkinInsite can do

[MartinC]

I'm shaking my head at that gif DG - watch the pass pro from Compton and LeRib. Got to do better than that.

[darrelgreenie]

looking at those GiFS from the Minny is amost like looking at a differnet QB when you look at Tampa Tape.  

 

Tampa Robert would have never made that throw against Minny Robert. 

Conversely, looking at any other Griffin game I never thought a game like Tampa was possible.

I'm shaking my head at that gif DG - watch the pass pro from Compton and LeRib. Got to do better than that.

Even in the Minny the pass pro ain't great, not a bunch of clean pockets happening. But whaddya gonna do? *shrugs*

Any specific play cut ups?

[Simmsy]

I don't know if this has been posted already or not, but its worth a read. I think people are putting too much stake into Cooley's analysis:

http://potg2.blogspot.com/2014/11/about-that-first-rgiii-interception.html

[Rufus T Firefly]

I'm shaking my head at that gif DG - watch the pass pro from Compton and LeRib. Got to do better than that.

Yeah, it's ugly. It's also a play where three guys are running a deep route and Roberts is running a crossing route. We can't run plays like that if the QB is gonna get lit up within 2.5 seconds.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Yeah, it's ugly. It's also a play where three guys are running a deep route and Roberts is running a crossing route. We can't run plays like that if the QB is gonna get lit up within 2.5 seconds.

I find it interesting because I had a totally different take than you guys.

 

I saw that play and thought it was a missed read. Robert looks to be starting the check down man the entire time, and dumps it off immediately. Now, in this case, that turns out to be a good thing, because the line blows it up. But his staring the man down is also part of the reason for the receiver getting lit up. 

 

But the defense is in standard cover 2. Lovie has run it that way for 15 years. There's no secret to it. If you look at the bottom of the screen, you see the corner pass off the wide out to the safety WAY to early and not properly carry them up the sideline. You also see an inside receiver running vertical to keep the safety honest in the middle of the field.

 

To me, the right read is to stare down the safety at the start of the play, and then loft the ball up the near sideline. This play should be a no brainer. They have their 2nd corner on Garcon (I think that's who it is) and, although there is a deep safety (it's cover 2), that safety has no chance of ranging over to make the play because of Niles Paul running the corner. 

 

Now, all that said, Robert would have gotten blown up before he got to throw it, so it would never have mattered. But the read should begin and end there based on the simple fact that you have cover 2 coverage (which we've seen all game), and mismatches in favor of your guys on the outside. The holes in that zone were open all day (as they always are against that defense). 

 

The only good reason for Robert to come back underneath is if, at the snap of the ball, the safety bails to the sideline and ignores the middle of the field. In which case a checkdown is the next read unless you have a vertical splitting the seam (which we didn't). I just don't like that Robert seems looking for that shakedown the whole way.

[Rufus T Firefly]

For the record, he actually wasn't staring down Roberts. He was looking at Paul going deeper but comes off him and goes to Roberts, probably because the pocket is breaking down.

 

And I don't buy that anything he did got Roberts hit hard. What did you think that LB was going to do if Griffin was looking deep? Abandon the middle of the field? He's standing right where his responsibility is until Griffin makes the throw, then he reacts.

[darrelgreenie]

I don't know if this has been posted already or not, but its worth a read. I think people are putting too much stake into Cooley's analysis: http://potg2.blogspot.com/2014/11/about-that-first-rgiii-interception.html

I mentioned earlier in my breakdown of this play that I didn't grade Griffin down for not the throwing the TE pop either because Jordan Reed doesn't even get his head around til ~6 yards.

 

Below is a similar concept play and look how quick Fred Davis gets his head up and around to show for Griffin:

But, I looked again and what the article said and you know that guy is right.

"Again look at David in the red circle he is right there. Which is also why RGIII couldn't throw the bubble screen (blue circle) which Cooley also knocked him for."

I also graded Griffin down for not getting to the bubble screen after he turned down the TE pop (which I didn't grade him down for) but I did give Griffin credit for evade/escape. So I feel less bad about missing how the throwing the bubble would be risky because he would have to throw around or over David.

Grading film isn't easy because there is so much information to process.

[DC9]

Below is a similar concept play and look how quick Fred Davis gets his head up and around to show for G

 

 

 

Tampa played zone - Atlanta played man.

 

Early on in that offense most front sevens were playing read and react and either had to choose to stop the run or stop the pass.  How open those receivers were on that pop pass were ridiculous at times.

 

We've run similar concepts from under center with PA since and it's not come to fruition.  Just weird.

 

But I definitely think that the struggles with zone are apparent.

 

I don't test Levonte David on that route either, fwiw.  He's the fastest MLB in the NFL.

But the read on that play is the MLB - so to open it up you shouldn't have Morris in the Pistol, you should have him to Griffins right and the run action should be outside zone left or off tackle left. 

 

like this:

 

 

It pulls Fletcher to the QBs left vs in towards the inside run.  Opening up the pop pass.

 

But that run action won't hole the blitzing OLB like the inside zone run action did, either. 

 

Just things we need to deal with three years into that play vs the first year.

 

EDIT:  Also note how quickly that ball comes out from Vick.  A lot like how quickly that ball comes out from Griffin in that first year.  But Vick makes the decision before the snap is made based on alignment, then makes that one read.  Our 2012 offense was designed to get that one read open.  In that pop pass above vs the Falcons you have Niles Paul playing out wide on the side where Davis makes the catch.  It's a run look.

[darrelgreenie]

...Also note how quickly that ball comes out from Vick.  A lot like how quickly that ball comes out from Griffin in that first year.

For me the key to the ball coming out quick on the pop is completely linked to how quickly the TE shows for the QB. Its hella risky throwing that type of pop/seam to a TE that isn't looking. The TE has to show and Reed ran with his head down for about 6 yards before he showed.

 

But Vick makes the decision before the snap is made based on alignment, then makes that one read.

I would bet the TE pop is always the first read on that Eagles play because timing window on the bubble/flare screens is longer then the TE pop. Meaning if you read the bubble screen first you mostly likely can't go back to the TE pop. But if you read the TE pop first and you don't like it the bubble/flare screen will still be open in rhythm.

 

Our 2012 offense was designed to get that one read open. In that pop pass above vs the Falcons you have Niles Paul playing out wide on the side where Davis makes the catch. It's a run look.

Yup that play was a read play between the RB dive or the TE pop.

 

[DC9]

I would bet the TE pop is always the first read on that Eagles play because timing window on the bubble/flare screens is longer then the TE pop. Meaning if you read the bubble screen first you mostly likely can't go back to the TE pop. But if you read the TE pop first and you don't like it the bubble/flare screen will still be open in rhythm.

 

 

It is.  If the RB carries the MLB you pull it out and throw the pop.  If the TE carries the MLB then it's just math.  How many were in the box pre-snap?  If you win that math problem you leave it with the RB, if not you pull it out and start turning your body to get it out to the WR screen (The QB also has the option to run there, as well, obviously).

 

Which would favor a right-handed QB on a play like that cause the ball would come out behind the line of scrimmage and away from the defense.

 

In 2012, the majority of our run plays were based on reading the DE/3-4 OLB.  We'd call the pop when the LBs would start crashing in on the inside zone.  Our deep passes would be read off of the safeties and how they were playing the run.  There would normally be an intermediate route and a deep route and normally one was open the whole time.

 

Teams are playing more disciplined around it now and the zone schemes are taking a lot of that away.  The only thing that I think can make that a sustainable offense again is if Griffin is a running threat like before.  Even then, he needs to show that he can get the ball out and make quick decisions on these plays so that the defense is responsible for the whole field.  Right now defenses know he's mentally boxed in so they'll play him the same until he breaks out of it.

[darrelgreenie]

Teams are playing more disciplined around it now and the zone schemes are taking a lot of that away.  The only thing that I think can make that a sustainable offense again is if Griffin is a running threat like before.

The offense you refer to in 2012 is broad, and not that I'm particularly interested in sustaining the 2012 offense but there is a lot that can be done to build around a read-option. Heck, look at the Eagles, Dolphins for starters.

For me the Bucs game was about lack of preparation and comfort more then anything else.

"...And the biggest thing for us as play-callers, and for him, we just have to come together and jell with plays he's comfortable with. That takes time."

-Crazy J

 

Hopefully this thread has kinda shown some possibilities.

[DC9]

"...And the biggest thing for us as play-callers, and for him, we just have to come together and jell with plays he's comfortable with. That takes time."

-Crazy J

 

Hopefully this thread has kinda shown some possibilities.

 

Yeah, I agree.  Hopefully we see some stuff that he CAN do and that we can build on as an offense.  Not just one thing he can do that doesn't lead to something else.

 

As a "coach" guy, I will always look at this team from the perspective of the coaches.  So I guess I am more empathizing with Jay Gruden more so than anything.  If we were in here looking at the film and nothing was open and Rob was running for his life then that quote would carry some weight.

 

Being that most of what we are looking at right now and what we have been looking at since the preseason and even into last year shows otherwise, I think that's more of a cop out quote due to frustration.

 

Definitely tough to evaluate blocking and routes on offense when the center piece is all over the place.  Except for Compton and whomever is playing LG... lol.  Those are pretty easy.

[darrelgreenie]

Yeah, I agree.  Hopefully we see some stuff that he CAN do and that we can build on as an offense....

 

As a "coach" guy, I will always look at this team from the perspective of the coaches. So I guess I am more empathizing with Jay Gruden more so than anything.

And as a "coach" guy myself I am more critical of coaching. Because for me a players level of execution is direct result of my coaching.

[DC9]

And as a "coach" guy myself I am more critical of coaching. Because for me a players level of execution is direct result of my coaching.

 

Totally agree.  Maybe we need to look at getting a 3rd HC?

[gortiz]

All-22 not up yet, but been rewatching Kaps throws from yesterday and the difference between him and Robert when comparing throwing on time/at the top of the pocket is startling.  

 

Not even a contest. Kaps throws come with almost zero hesitation, his right arm is moving forward the instant his right foot takes its last step back. 

[darrelgreenie]

All-22 not up yet, but been rewatching Kaps throws from yesterday and the difference between him and Robert when comparing throwing on time/at the top of the pocket is startling.  

 

Not even a contest. Kaps throws come with almost zero hesitation, his right arm is moving forward the instant his right foot takes its last step back.

Context.

Keep in my our defense isn't exactly on par with the 49ers defense and Kaep+Harbaugh have been together for 2-3? years and Jay+Griffin have been together for 21 quarters?

Last night I re-watched the 30 minute cut-ups of the Redskins offense from 49ers, Bucs, Vikes, Titans and Cardinals. Seriously, I'm a bored football nerd. And came away feeling better about both Griffin's play and Jay's playcalling.

These are some quick takes from some passing down miscues from the 49ers game.

 

Sure there were some plays where Griffin held the ball like below.

 

49ers showed blitz and they came. Griffin is being greedy here looking for the big play to DeSean and by the time he looks to Niles open for the checkdown/hot Griffin gets chin checked. This is clearly a negative play on Griffin because he should have noticed the blitz look and adjusted his pre-snap to throw hot right away to Niles. Actually reminds me of a WCO mantra from Andy Reid which Griffin might needs to hear "take what you can get as fast as you can get it" BUT if we are going to be fair MANY of Kyle's plays were deep to short.

Also, to be fair this play for me at least is not referendum on Griffin's play it a mistake that even veteran QBs make from time to time, its the reason why teams blitz. romoSUCKS didn't forget how to play QB because we beat him with blitz a couple of times.

 

Grade -1

 

But there here are other pass plays:

 

Compton+Chester gets beat quickly and badly and I mean instantly on stunt. The 49ers are hugging the sticks on the right side Roberts running short of the sticks still hasn't beat the press yet Garcon (not pictured) is running a comeback. Left-middle DeSean short of the sticks is bracketed left flat Silas is open in left flat not even back to the line of scrimmage, Niles (not pictured) is running a corner route (open).  Meanwhile Griffin has a free rusher bearing down on him.

 

Griffin is working the right-side of the field. With a free rusher bearing down Griffin doesn't bail and stands in there  giving the receivers a chance to work open. Tries to get a pass over to Robert in the left flat but doesn't get enough arm on it. INCOMPLETE. On the backside of the play DeSean is literally being held and Niles did get open on the corner route but Griffin was working the right side of the field.

Can't know which side of the field Griffin is 'supposed' to work.

 

My grade 0 even though the pass was off target he had no chance

If he was supposed to work the other side of the field -1

 

Next-

Moses is beat quickly. On the other side Compton is getting help from Chester.

49ers go man on the outside but switch on the rub route between Helu and DeSean pictured above.

DeSean actually has to adjust his route because Helu almost rubs him. Griff is waiting on DeSean to get his head up and around. SACK.

 

Grade 0

 

Next-

49ers press the Roberts and he can't get off. Garcon (not pictured) is running a comeback.

Compton is beat inside. Griffin doesn't/can't step into the throw and sails a high pass to Garcon.

INCOMPLETE

 

Grade a reluctant -1 for being off target but he couldn't step into the throw

[SkinInsite]

 

 

 

First sack, Chester got blown up

[SkinInsite]

 

mishandled handoff

[SkinInsite]

 

 

2nd sack, looks like garcon is open early on the cross and Paul open late deep middle.

[darrelgreenie]

On the second sack 3rd and 8 1st Q

Griffin's vision is to the right side trips.

Top of his drop no one is open yet.

Niles is just breaking away from the MLB.

Griffin is locked onto 2 WRs on the right.

The slot WR is running a seam and the WR closet to the sideline is running a deep comeback.

By the time the receiver breaks open on the comeback Griffin is getting sacked.

My take is he stays with the 2 WRs progression on the right too long but it is 3rd and 8.

Again without knowing which side of the field and what the progression we're only guessing here.

But it makes more sense to start the progression from the reading the Garcon on the crosser and Helu on the HB choice then to Niles then if there is more time read the other side of the field.

But, it easy to see all that that sitting on my couch and rewinding in 12 times.

[hail2skins]

How did Cooley grade RG3 out today on 980?