2014 Official All 22 Coaches Film Thread - Nothing But All 22 Questions and Observations

[darrelgreenie]

DC9/Kdawg

If you could remove pass pro from the equation I would agree with you (DC9) about Helu,I've always been a fan of Helu and in the past said he was a better runner then Morris. Helu's running style reminds me of a herky-jerky version of Matt Forte. But, his pass pro is bad, I was just being nice about it.

But I think Helu deserves more carries. I think Young and Redd (have no idea about his back)

But, I think the running game isn't really a point of emphasis for Jay. Because I think there is a lot of potential for this group of backs to be the focal point for the offense but I digress...

[DC9]

I've always wondered why we don't use Young as a Mack Strong type.  Single back sets, runs for him where he isn't just running a dive or a belly... like, actually let him line up 5 to 7 yards deep as the RB and let him get some steam going.  If you want to you could put Paulsen or Long in at FB and that can be your "heavy set".  I do similar **** when I play Madden where I have 5 tackles and a guard playing FB and run a lot.  But that is all fantasy

 

But I suspect that the reason Young is utilized more is because we have DJax, Garcon, Reed that could make the same claim.  Even though DJax gets the lion's share of the "designs".

 

Here are some ideas on how to use a big back from our friend Mike Sherman:

 

 

EDIT:  I should note that lane is about 5'11" and 295lbs or so...

[Skins Wingman]

(screen pass 2 video)

im not sure if this was a read option or designed play, but wiliams, lauvao and chester do absolute nothing.  with the safety blitzing, this could have been a big gain but none of the lineman block anybody.  is that watt that morris absolutely pancakes?

 

edit: removed video from quote

[Voice_of_Reason]

I've always wondered why we don't use Young as a Mack Strong type. 

One thing about Young is that he's oft injured. Not seriously, but lots of dings.  I know Cooley downgraded him because of availability.  I like him, he's a beast, but I think he's actually more valuable as a blocker than a runner.

 

He's most effective when he's the FB in the I, and can lead the RB to the hole.  Unfortunately, we don't do that a ton with Griffin because we put him in pistol so much.  

[skinny21]

Talk about a great way to wear down the D too.

I'd be very interested in seeing DY lined up in the rb spot - I agree with whoever said it that he might be our best all around back (even if he's the "worst" runner). Would love to see DY in the backfield with a spread look, particularly on 3rd and medium/short. At a minimum, I think he deserves a shot over Paulsen - better leverage, plays more violent (w/ more intensity), doesn't turn the ball over and Paulsen (as far as I can tell) has been playing poorly.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC027aKvn8I

[MattFancy]

Here's a question for those with access to the all 22. Maybe I'm asking a bit much of you guys in here for this one.

 

Can someone chart how often we run Shotgun plays with each QB? Curious to see how often we run it and how effective we are out of it.

[Voice_of_Reason]

DC9/Kdawg

If you could remove pass pro from the equation I would agree with you (DC9) about Helu,I've always been a fan of Helu and in the past said he was a better runner then Morris. Helu's running style reminds me of a herky-jerky version of Matt Forte. But, his pass pro is bad, I was just being nice about it.

But I think Helu deserves more carries. I think Young and Redd (have no idea about his back)

But, I think the running game isn't really a point of emphasis for Jay. Because I think there is a lot of potential for this group of backs to be the focal point for the offense but I digress...

I like our backs, but....

 

Helu is bad at pass pro and Morris can't catch a cold.  

 

I wish we could run more and more effectively, but I think what is stopping the running game is that while the OL blocking on run plays is adequate, the blocking from the TE and WR spots is absolutely horrendous.  Which is why I think you've seen more inside zone runs recently than outside zone runs.  

 

Reed is a horrible run blocker, and in an outside zone, one of the jobs of the TE is to set the edge so the RB has a lane to cut back into, and he just can't.  DJax might/might not be willing to block, but he's just never going to be an effective blocker. Garcon is about the only blocker at the WR/TE position who's worth anything.  

 

It's a conundrum: the OL was essentially built by Shanahan to be a quicker/outside zone run-blocking unit, with smaller but quicker guys.  And then they complemented the OL by targeting WRs and TEs that could block.  Morgan might not have been much of a pass catcher, but he blocked his tail off.  Paulsen played more/better.  You even had Davis and Cooley at times in there.  

 

But now you have guys like DJax, Roberts, Reed, Niles Paul out there, and they're not as good at run blocking.

 

So, because the outside zone has been basically non-existent all year due to personnel issues, you ask the OL to do something they're not really built for, which is inside-zone and power blocking.  

 

The whole thing is a personnel and scheme mismatch.  It's another black mark against Allen the GM. They wanted to keep the run scheme consistent, but changed out some important parts, which basically broke it. Now they have to rely on smoke and mirrors with Griffin as a run threat to help open up holes in the run game.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

Here's a question for those with access to the all 22. Maybe I'm asking a bit much of you guys in here for this one.

 

Can someone chart how often we run Shotgun plays with each QB? Curious to see how often we run it and how effective we are out of it.

You can do this by looking at the play-by-play data dump from nflsavant.com

 

You can download a .csv file (opens in Excel) and it gives you every play from scrimmage for the entire league, through last week. Last week's file is 28,000 lines long.  Filter on offense, then select the filter "Is Pass", and then there is a column that tells you what type of formation (under center, shotgun, etc.)  Could run a pivot table from that.  

 

It doesn't have the QB, so you'd have to break it up by game, and then extrapolate the QB.  For example, Texans, Vikings, Bucs = Griffin, , 2nd half Tenn, Dallas = McCoy, rest = Cousins.  It wouldn't be too hard.  

 

I can't do it today, but I can do it maybe this weekend.

[MattFancy]

You can do this by looking at the play-by-play data dump from nflsavant.com

 

You can download a .csv file (opens in Excel) and it gives you every play from scrimmage for the entire league, through last week. Last week's file is 28,000 lines long.  Filter on offense, then select the filter "Is Pass", and then there is a column that tells you what type of formation (under center, shotgun, etc.)  Could run a pivot table from that.  

 

It doesn't have the QB, so you'd have to break it up by game, and then extrapolate the QB.  For example, Texans, Vikings, Bucs = Griffin, , 2nd half Tenn, Dallas = McCoy, rest = Cousins.  It wouldn't be too hard.  

 

I can't do it today, but I can do it maybe this weekend.

 

Sweet! I'll give it a shot and post what I find. Just wondering how effective Shotgun is for our offense. Especially RG3.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Sweet! I'll give it a shot and post what I find. Just wondering how effective Shotgun is for our offense. Especially RG3.

Yeah, you can get all kinds of data from that data set. I think it's similar (if not the same) data set that all of the analytic sites use. Then they put their analytic and algorithms on top of it.  

 

One thing that I found out:  There are 2 columns, IsRun and IsPass.  1 = yes, 0 = no.  A mistake I made: you can't assume a 0 in IsPass = a run, and a 0 in IsRun is a pass. Because both are zero in the case of penalties.  

[ExoDus84]

Sweet! I'll give it a shot and post what I find. Just wondering how effective Shotgun is for our offense. Especially RG3.

 

Rough play breakdown from the same site. This is RG3's pass attempts, so not total snaps out of the shotgun or under center:

 

HOU: 35 Shotgun, 2 from center. Snaps from center earned 1 yard.

MIN: 18 Shotgun, 10 from center. Snaps from center earned 140 yards.

TB: 27 Shotgun, 5 from center. Snaps from center earned 32 yards.

 

These are total plays, including the ones that drew penalties.

[darrelgreenie]

...

So, because the outside zone has been basically non-existent all year due to personnel issues, you ask the OL to do something they're not really built for, which is inside-zone and power blocking.  

 

The whole thing is a personnel and scheme mismatch.  It's another black mark against Allen the GM. They wanted to keep the run scheme consistent, but changed out some important parts, which basically broke it. Now they have to rely on smoke and mirrors with Griffin as a run threat to help open up holes in the run game.

For me the running game still comes down to volition and expertise. I don't think Jay is getting as much as he can from the running game its not his forte. Are there obstacles to our running? Sure. But that why we have coaches. The personnel changes aren't that drastic.

You coach/scheme around them use Paulsen to block the edge, coach Reed up, use D.Young. DeSean blocking didn't limit the Eagles running game.

And there is nothing wrong that Jay's forte is the passing game, but I don't throw all the blame for the dip in the running game on personnel.

 

..

He's most effective when he's the FB in the I, and can lead the RB to the hole. Unfortunately, we don't do that a ton with Griffin because we put him in pistol so much.

You can still run FB from Pistol though, that's one reason why coaches like Pistol over Shotgun. With Pistol you can still maintain a downhill run game.

[DC9]

MIN: 18 Shotgun, 10 from center. Snaps from center earned 140 yards.

TB: 27 Shotgun, 5 from center. Snaps from center earned 32 yards.

 

Minnesota playing man vs TB playing zone

 

Houston - JJ Watt and Clowney probably pushed that gameplan into the gun

[darrelgreenie]

Rough play breakdown from the same site. This is RG3's pass attempts, so not total snaps out of the shotgun or under center:

 

HOU: 35 Shotgun, 2 from center. Snaps from center earned 1 yard.

MIN: 18 Shotgun, 10 from center. Snaps from center earned 140 yards.

TB: 27 Shotgun, 5 from center. Snaps from center earned 32 yards.

 

These are total plays, including the ones that drew penalties.

Interesting.

Maybe their is some viability of playing Griffin more from under center.

[ExoDus84]

Interesting.

Maybe their is some viability of playing Griffin more from under center.

 

Doesn't look like Gruden really wants Griff to be under center. It's easier to see the field, and gives you slightly more time, when you take the snap from shotgun.

 

I don't think, at this stage, Griffin would benefit from having something else to worry about while dropping back to pass.

[darrelgreenie]

Doesn't look like Gruden really wants Griff to be under center. It's easier to see the field, and gives you slightly more time, when you take the snap from shotgun.

 

I don't think, at this stage, Griffin would benefit from having something else to worry about while dropping back to pass.

Maybe *shrugs* I try hard not to guess at what Jay is thinking. And I agree that there is some benefit to being in gun. But there is also benefit to playing under center. And if I read your research correctly 1/4 of Griffin's pass plays against the Vikings were from under center and he had 140 yards on those plays? MIN: 18 Shotgun, 10 from center. Snaps from center earned 140 yards.

That seems like there is some productivity there.

Imho being under center forces QBs to ingrain the proper footwork of passing plays.

As opposed to shotgun where there is a lot of room to freelance.

Imo you can use the undercenter play-action footwork to help a QB transition into the rhythm drop back passing game.

[MartinC]

Imo you can use the undercenter play-action footwork to help a QB transition into the rhythm drop back passing game.

 

I agree. I think using some 3 and 5 steps drops with rhythm based throws would help RGIII. I think specifically it would help when throwing against zone coverages. For example we use the smash concept quite a bit against cover 2 (6 yard hitch and 12 yard corner route behind the hitch). If you can hold the corner with the hitch and have the QB keep good eye discipline down the middle of the field to keep the safety outside the corner route that play is stealing against cover 2. The corner route is almost always open. BUT you have to throw on time and with anticipation. 

 

However similar to your argument about the running game its something you have to commit to and put in the practice time. It needs a lot of repetition to develop the muscle memory and have the timing down pat.

[DC9]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2014/11/21/the-test-the-areas-robert-griffin-iii-most-needs-to-fix-heading-into-the-49ers-game/

 

Pretty good read here.

Goes into how a drop depth effects the routes and essentially the whole play (including o-line blocking).

 

Also about throwing into windows in a zone.  

[Skins Wingman]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2014/11/21/the-test-the-areas-robert-griffin-iii-most-needs-to-fix-heading-into-the-49ers-game/

 

Pretty good read here.

Goes into how a drop depth effects the routes and essentially the whole play. 

 

Also about throwing into windows in a zone.  

 

for some reason i cant post the pictures, but the corner-flat route against tampa 2 is really hard to look at.  i mean everybody is wide open and the 2 receivers down the field are easy 20 yard completions.  wtf is he looking at?

[DC9]

for some reason i cant post the pictures, but the corner-flat route against tampa 2 is really hard to look at.  i mean everybody is wide open and the 2 receivers down the field are easy 20 yard completions.  wtf is he looking at?

 

Yeah, that was posted on the last page or the page before.

 

They are protecting those pics for clicks due to thread like this one

[redskins55]

I thought Desean Jackson told McCoy to throw it as far as he could cause he cant be overthrown??  Well...With a flick of the wrist Griffin over threw him twice! 

[darrelgreenie]

I agree. I think using some 3 and 5 steps drops (under center) with rhythm based throws would help RGIII.

I'm talking about running at the defense until we catch them in a known run defense then hit them with hard run action, with 2 well defined downfield reads like a deep over and a double move/vertical takeoff. Historically Griffin has been good off play-action and we haven't run that much play-action this year especially 1st down play-action.

This play combines both of these concepts.

Max protection + under center play-action:

 

[MartinC]

Yep DG - I think we do need to focus on establishing the run and then using play action with some half field high/low reads. We are seeing a lot of 8 man boxes on running downs which simplifies the coverages behind - time we started making defences pay for that.

We need to get some things we can hang our hat on on passing downs as well though and against zone coverage. I think that's the book on RGIII now - show him zone on passing downs and zone blitz. I'm old and brought up on Joe Gibbs offense which had zero shotgun leg alone pistol. I like pistol and shotgun has advantages but I do think running some under centre 3 and 5 step drops on medium distance passing downs would be a help to RGIII in getting into a rhythm.

[gortiz]

looking at those GiFS from the Minny is amost like looking at a differnet QB when you look at Tampa Tape.  

 

Tampa Robert would have never made that throw against Minny Robert. 

[SkinsFTW]

And it shows how awesome Jackson is at tracking the ball. Also those ducks that Colt threw that Jackson still caught deep were unbelievable. They need to be throwing 4-5 times a game down field to Jackson and Garcon should get some looks too when they think its going to Jackson.

I can't believe how they've totally gone away from Garcon after he was the best WR in the NFL for YAC a few years ago.