2014 Official All 22 Coaches Film Thread - Nothing But All 22 Questions and Observations

[Nuwanda]

while not his fault, that first INT against Tampa could have been avoided ... Reed was wide open and should have been Roberts first read. 

 

 

http://hail22.com/2014/11/17/robert-griffin-iii-first-interception-break/

 

Dumb post. Read the defense, if you can. Two guys in zone coverage, that LB could have made a pick there. Why take the risk there for a couple yards. Typical example of people somehow trying to put the blame on him. He made the right decision. He also could have gone to D-Jax on that screen (for no gain really). Instead he did what he did and if that chump of a tight end could have avoided showing off the worst hands in the history of any sport where hands are being used to catch a ball, then it would have been the typical great play by a QB who keeps plays alive and makes plays others can't. Instead, he gets blamed. Talk about nonsense.

[kingarthur65]

Dumb post. Read the defense, if you can. Two guys in zone coverage, that LB could have made a pick there. Why take the risk there for a couple yards. Typical example of people somehow trying to put the blame on him. He made the right decision. He also could have gone to D-Jax on that screen (for no gain really). Instead he did what he did and if that chump of a tight end could have avoided showing off the worst hands in the history of any sport where hands are being used to catch a ball, then it would have been the typical great play by a QB who keeps plays alive and makes plays others can't. Instead, he gets blamed. Talk about nonsense.

 

 

The blitzing corner is Griffin's responsibility.  If he reads  that he can dump it out to Jackson who has a ten yard cushion.  

[Zazzaro703]

Man this was a tough thread to go through. Griffin has definitely lost his ability and confidence to play the position at this time.

[Dub70s]

(Whispers) which is why he was backing up Polumbus for 3 years....

But the difference is, Compton has shown some flashes, and played well against Minn. you know what you (don't) have in Polumbus.

Now you can see what you have in Compton.

It's going to really freaking stink, however, if the team spent a 3rd on a tackle (Moses) who they want to play RT but can only play LT. When you already have a top 5 LT.

and when they drafted for Moses (a LT).....???????????????? was all I had.

[skins island connection]

It was so bad that KDawg is gonna have to get drunk before he can get the nerve to watch it.

 

I know the film is gross, but what would you guys suggest that we could do to help Griff out?  I think some no huddle would make sense, push tempo, allow him more time at the line to diagnose things pre-snap.  Whatever we do, I hope we do it quick.  Aldon Smith is back and looking for blood.

 

 Although it may sound like an unpopular idea, i'd say to pull him out for the rest of the season.

 Get him some long term, every-day tutoring by some quality QB coaches. Him being on the field isn't getting him any better, playing time will not cure the issues he has. He needs alot of coaching drilled into his head to the point he does it in his sleep.

 

 If he continues to start, he's playing with the same o-line,  and habits are hard to break, so he will continue to struggle until he can be taught out of his bad habits. He's got the arm, the brains, the desire, but he doesn't have the tools to be effective; he might end up being hurt before the end of the season, then what?

[cahones01]

Dumb post. Read the defense, if you can. Two guys in zone coverage, that LB could have made a pick there. Why take the risk there for a couple yards. Typical example of people somehow trying to put the blame on him. He made the right decision. He also could have gone to D-Jax on that screen (for no gain really). Instead he did what he did and if that chump of a tight end could have avoided showing off the worst hands in the history of any sport where hands are being used to catch a ball, then it would have been the typical great play by a QB who keeps plays alive and makes plays others can't. Instead, he gets blamed. Talk about nonsense.

 

If by typical you mean all analysts and former players saying that ball should been thrown, then yes it's typical. That was his primary read, is designed to be thrown to Reed on a quick hit, and RG3 hesitated twice. But if you still feel like that throw was too risky, why didn't he continue through his reads and hit his dump off? It was wide open. He also had the option to keep the ball and run to the far side of the field. The DE bit on the fake, froze in his tracks and stumbled. 3 different options and all of them were missed.

 

[KDawg]

 

 

 

This look eerily similar to last week against the Vikings, people just running down the field with no one covering them

 

This is a classic cover 2. The corner in the bottom of the picture got beat when he came forward. Now, his responsibility is the flats, but if nothing shows, he's supposed to carry #1 vertical. Even though his forward steps allowed him to get beat deep, this play still isn't on him. His job is essentially to prevent #1 from catching the ball underneath, and despite allowing the receiver to get deep on him, he did his job.

 

The issue here is Ryan Clark. Clark was way too worried about the underneath throw and wanting to jump it, which caused him to come forward a few steps. By the time he realized Evans was going vertical, it was too late. He couldn't catch him. His job in cover 2 is to stay deeper than the deepest threat to his half of the field. He tried too hard to support in the underneath/run game and wound up getting caught out of position by a receiver who is too fast to do that with.

[DC9]

If by typical you mean all analysts and former players saying that ball should been thrown, then yes it's typical. That was his primary read, is designed to be thrown to Reed on a quick hit, and RG3 hesitated twice. But if you still feel like that throw was too risky, why didn't he continue through his reads and hit his dump off? It was wide open. He also had the option to keep the ball and run to the far side of the field. The DE bit on the fake, froze in his tracks and stumbled. 3 different options and all of them were missed.

 

This is actually a Chip Kelly play.  First time I saw it in the league was when they played us on MNF in 2013.  The read is the MLB, and Kelly was using it to take advantage of an old London Fletcher.  He had four or five plays that did that.  Only difference was the RB went on more of a jet sweep and the guard pulled out instead of inside zone, which I think would be more effective here (to pull David, the MLB) but likely doesn't freeze the LE like this one did.  But Lavante David might be the fastest ILB/MLB in the NFL.  Still, the play was open to Reed momentarily.

 

It's plays like this that are designed to have at least one option open quickly.  Here there are two. 

[darrelgreenie]

First2nd  play of the 2nd quarter (3rd and 4). Man coverage, single high safey.

 

Griffin feels the pressure on the right side but rather than throw it to Roberts who has his man beat inside, Helu for the check down in the flat which would have been a big gain, or even Reed on the post, he hesitates and takes the sack. 

 

He had a clear throwing lane, can see Roberts had the inside, and knowing that pressure was coming this ball should have come out at the top of his drop. Instead it's a sack.

 

He has to make a decision to throw the ball here, but he just can't pull the trigger.  He did this all day.  The only time I saw him drop back and throw the ball on time and in rhythm was on screen passes.    

Its always tough to break down a play from still images.

I would also grade Griffin down on this play but read the play differently.

 

I'm not grading him down for turning down the throw to Roberts because the player neither of you have mentioned is the LB in spy/middle zone coverage. We cannot pretend this defender isn't there and he's doing a good job of shadowing Griffin's eyes and occupying the early passing lane if Rob wants to throw the ball early to Andre.

I grade Griffin down for (a) lack of eye discipline which attracted the LB to Andre IF Rob wants to throw the ball to Andre he needs to move that LB with his eyes/helmet to create the passing lane

Griffin imo makes the correct decision to turn down the pass to Andre BUT I grade Griffin down for ( not immediately taking the checkdown to Helu when he felt the pressure in the pocket

 

 

Coaching points for this play-

 

o emphasize down and distance awareness (repeated issue this game and others and not just for Griffin) QB needs to know that their main job on 3rd down is to convert the down YOU cannot take a sack here with the checkdown open

 

o pre-snap understanding of how to manipulate a KNOWN coverage post snap...i.e. QB has to control that LB/FS with his eyes to create the throw IF QB stares the receiver he wants down the defense will take it away

 

Going forward I like the concept and formation of this play even on 1st and 2nd down. It creates a known/simplified coverage (Cover 1/3) and it creates a light box 6-man count to run against.

It gives the receivers a chance to win man to man and against Cover-3 creates known voids in coverage.

[gortiz]

Dumb post. Read the defense, if you can.

Was that necessary? Everyone's pretty much being respectful to each other and you got to go and do something like this? What's your problem? And dont say me or this post, it runs a lot deeper than that…

[KDawg]

Dumb post. Read the defense, if you can. Two guys in zone coverage, that LB could have made a pick there. Why take the risk there for a couple yards. Typical example of people somehow trying to put the blame on him. He made the right decision. He also could have gone to D-Jax on that screen (for no gain really). Instead he did what he did and if that chump of a tight end could have avoided showing off the worst hands in the history of any sport where hands are being used to catch a ball, then it would have been the typical great play by a QB who keeps plays alive and makes plays others can't. Instead, he gets blamed. Talk about nonsense.

 

Actually, you're not exactly right either. First, the LB could have made the pick, but quarterbacks in the NFL make extremely tight throws. But to your point, and one that I see, if Griffin thought that backer was too close to jump, then maybe he was. The correct ball was the bench route to the flat. Once everyone bailed and he saw that the quick hitter up the gut was swallowed (if it was, I can't tell from this angle. I could log onto All-22 to look from the tight, but again, I refuse to subject myself to that) then he should know that the corner dropped and no one was covering the flats. Take the gain of three (that's minimum, there's a lot of running room there). 

[FXMASTER]

Now for the pure aggravation factor, start one of these on the dallas game. 

[darrelgreenie]

Not sure if you heard Cooley's film breakdown today. But basically at one point he said if I'm Jay Gruden I have zero clue what I can do and zero clue what I can prepare Robert based off last game. That was pretty scary.

The game tape itself is pretty scary, I said in another thread that it was the worst I've ever seen Griffin play.

There is a coaching saying that I believe in 100%. As a coach you are either coaching it or allowing it to happen. Many of Griffin's mistakes are correctable through coaching and we cannot coach nor allow Griffin to look/play the way he did against the Bucs ever again. If I'm Gruden that's where I'm at. If that means wearing my OC/QB coach hat more then so be it.

I like the word you used above...p r e p a r e. I am operating under the assumption that in this thread we believe Griffin is coachable?

The question becomes WTF happened against Tampa? From our vantage point 10,000 miles away its hard to say.

On some plays its like WTF? Why wasn't he executing concepts that we know he can execute? To me Rob looked unprepared and unsure on too many plays. My answer? REMOVE all doubt. When a play is called we have to know that Griffin knows exactly what we want to the point that he can execute the play quickly, naturally, comfortably.

But how do we get there?

Maybe that means cutting down the volume of plays in practice/install and increasing the reps on fewer a smaller sample. Maybe that means linking the gameplan into a more cohesive whole? Chip Kelly's playbook is notoriously small. Joe Gibbs would run the same play with a bunch of different window dressing.

That's my take on the philosophy/mental attitude needed from the coaching staff.

 

At this point, I would do a carbon copy of his first game in this league against New Orleans.

Ah, we can only dream but I don't think Jay wants or can easily change his offense that much in such short time.

But there are plenty of plays that we know from the Houston and Vikings and even some from the Bucs game that they can build from.

My gameplan would be more run focused, feature more play-action and more RB screen passes and more spread concepts.

I would also build around these core strengths:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/23/qbs-in-focus-griffin-cousins/

 

•  Throws best to the right (+4.3).

•  Handles blitz pressure better than most (0.0).

•  Showed well on shorter drops (4-6 yards) at +2.6.

•  Among the league’s best on throws between 5-10 yards (+7.9), including an above average Accuracy Percentage of 80.7%.

•  One of the league’s best on third down at +9.5, particularly 3rd-and-Medium where his +6.2 ranked fourth in the league, and showed well whether blitzed (+3.0) or against traditional rush (+6.5).

•  Best grades came while throwing to outside wide receivers, including +3.2 when throwing to a tight end that was split wide.

•  Best route was post routes (+6.3), including +2.3 on play action

 

I don't think we've thrown to the outside receivers alot nor thrown many post routes.

[darrelgreenie]

-Oh, and I would throw at least 6 vertical/go/take-off routes every game

[darrelgreenie]

Also, you could do more max protect with intermediate routes.

Fewer receivers, give Griffin more time in the pocket.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Nice breakdown of Roberts pick (the tipped one) on hail22.com.

 

He stares down Garcon so much that he actually uncovers Roberts and Reed over the middle b/c the LB was bailing to get to Garcon. 

[DC9]

Also, you could do more max protect with intermediate routes.

Fewer receivers, give Griffin more time in the pocket.

 

If teams know "he holds the ball" now and they are willing to say that in the press like McCoy did post-game, I don't know that limiting receivers is the right answer.

 

He's got to get the ball out quicker.

 

Right now if I'm a defensive coordinator playing the Redskins, I'm playing zone and only rushing 4 or 5 every time until he proves that he can get the ball into windows. 

 

I agree with vertical routes.  Don't know where/when/how he lost his seam vision.  That pass to DY in the seam vs the Ravens in 2012 is still one of the best passes I've ever seen a Redskins QB throw.

[ZRagone]

I'm a big picture guy.  I focus on what's best for the TEAM. 

 

 

I feel that there needs to be an honest voice in here.   

 

Let me prephase this by flat out saying I don't think you're a "Griffin Hater" like some try to (wrongly imho) label you. A hater is someone who harps on someone for things he won't harp on others about, who will never acknowledge the good without some kind of caveat downplaying it or tieing it to the bad, and who will generally keep his head down on things when it's going well but is loud when it's not. Haters also rarely actually argue based on clearly intelligent, self realized, thoughts as opposed to just latching onto any group think or blog post they can find that fits their opinion.

 

You're not a hater.

 

But these kind of passive aggressive condenscending comments is part of what is undoubtably turning some of the other posters, ones who like you are good posters, off of your posts.

 

Are people suggesting that the black and white viewing of Griffin as seemingly either his 2012 self or a bust not "big picture guys"? Is it not possible to "focus on what's best for the TEAM" and simply come to a different conclussion than you on what that means as it relates to Robert Griffin? Are there not "honest voices" in this thread other than yours, or even "honest voices" in this thread not speaking as if Griffin is a dumpster fire?

 

You may think the answer to all those is yes, but your posts don't shot it and instead just come off as a condenscending lecture that you're here to bless all us mere mortals with the honesty and truth of a guy who cares about the "team".

 

The implication that those who don't think we should move on from Griffin yet as not being caring about the "team" is no more ludicrous then people's implications that you're a "hater".

 

You typically have great posts with good information and an opinion that is good to read even if the reader may disagree with it...but that gets lost when you're tossing out what appears to be underhanded attacks like that throughout your posts.

[DC9]

I know the film is gross, but what would you guys suggest that we could do to help Griff out? 

 

 

Really, at this point, I don't know.

 

I think the opening script to the Jags game was okay.  He had a couple of nice RO runs and we moved the chains.  Does that settle him down?  Who knows.

 

The only thing that I can really think of is more RO early and more stretch/boot plays.

 

However, I've noticed we hardly (if ever) run stretch plays with RG3 in.  We run the "pitch" or "toss" with outside zone blocking.  I don't know why this is, but the only thing I can think of is that his footwork is THAT bad that he either gets tangled up with a linemen or he can't get the correct timing down with the running back.  So that may eliminate the stretch --- which eliminates the boot from under center.

 

Just really weird stuff with Griffin.  Not a lot to like but a lot of questions.

You typically have great posts with good information and an opinion that is good to read even if the reader may disagree with it...but that gets lost when you're tossing out what appears to be underhanded attacks like that throughout your posts.

 

I'll take that into consideration.  Thanks.

Now for the pure aggravation factor, start one of these on the dallas game. 

 

Are you implying McCoy had good film in that game?  Cause he didn't.

 

He made some good, timely throws, though and got the ball out better as the game went on though.

[Voice_of_Reason]

The game tape itself is pretty scary, I said in another thread that it was the worst I've ever seen Griffin play.

yeah, I don't think that there's any question this was the worst game of his career. It was bad everywhere.

 

There is a coaching saying that I believe in 100%. As a coach you are either coaching it or allowing it to happen. Many of Griffin's mistakes are correctable through coaching and we cannot coach nor allow Griffin to look/play the way he did against the Bucs ever again. If I'm Gruden that's where I'm at. If that means wearing my OC/QB coach hat more then so be it.

I think the most alarming thing is how much Griffin has regressed. There are things that you now have to correct that he was doing well before. That's a problem.

To me, the biggest issue looks like Griffin has completely lost all of his confidence in everything. He's "seeing ghosts." He's not decisive with the ball. He's waiting for guys to come open instead of throwing them open. The timing of his drops is not synced with the timing of the routes. Every play that we've seen in this thread, those are common themes.

And I love the line that you're either coaching it or allowing it to happen. But sometimes when you coach it, and it doesn't happen, it's because the guy you're coaching can't do it, for whatever reason. In that case, the way that you don't allow it to happen is to find another guy to do it.

 

I like the word you used above...p r e p a r e. I am operating under the assumption that in this thread we believe Griffin is coachable?

I don't think we have any information to make an assumption on that in either direction. There are only a few people who know that, and they haven't said.

But, we have absolutely no way of knowing whether or not Griffin is coachable. If you want to assume it for the sake of discussion...

 

The question becomes WTF happened against Tampa? From our vantage point 10,000 miles away its hard to say.

On some plays its like WTF? Why wasn't he executing concepts that we know he can execute? To me Rob looked unprepared and unsure on too many plays. My answer? REMOVE all doubt. When a play is called we have to know that Griffin knows exactly what we want to the point that he can execute the play quickly, naturally, comfortably.

I have a couple theories of what happened against Tampa:

1. Griffin just had a bad game. Happens to everybody. Woke up on the wrong side of the bed, had a headache, his wife yelled at him, who the hell knows. Just had a bad day at the office, and it's not indicative of how he'll play next week.

2. He's still rusty. The time off hurt him and his timing, and the bye week hurt him, because he missed another week of practice. The team doesn't practice during the bye, as outlined by the CBA. So, he hasn't had a lot of consistent practice, and he's rusty.

3. He's completely lost confidence in everything he's doing, and has no idea how to pull himself out of it.

4. He's just not that good. 2012 was a mirage that the Shanahan's were able to create with smoke and mirrors, and amazing athletic ability. Minus that, he's just not that good overall. He's done some good things here and there, but nothing over the past 2 years to be considered even a top 1/3 QB in the league.

5. There is so much tension in the locker room that he's completely lost the team.

 

But how do we get there?

Maybe that means cutting down the volume of plays in practice/install and increasing the reps on fewer a smaller sample. Maybe that means linking the gameplan into a more cohesive whole? Chip Kelly's playbook is notoriously small. Joe Gibbs would run the same play with a bunch of different window dressing.

That's my take on the philosophy/mental attitude needed from the coaching staff.

One thing that Cooley said yesterday is that if he's Jay Gruden, he has no idea what to call, because even the things that were working, and that Griffin was good at, he wasn't able to execute. So, when you digress to the point where your strengths are no longer strengths, it puts the coaches in quite the pickle.

I don't know how big Gruden's playbook is, or if it's overly complex. It didn't seem that way. Honestly, it seemed like the game plan was pretty simple. Shrug.

But on Sunday, Griffin couldn't hit the simple stuff. He couldn't find guys who were open, then when he did find them, he wasn't always accurate. Those 2 throws to DJax should have been 14 points. But he just botched the throws. Plain and simple.

I honestly don't know how you get the guy his confidence back. He doesn't seem to have his heart into running the R/O, when he has P/A, he seems to hesitate instead of letting it rip, on drop-backs, all of his mechanics are off. I dunno. You're quickly running out of options of what TO do.

[ZRagone]

As it comes to film review, I still think Cooley's is some of the best around. Now I'm sure that's partially confirmation bias, because in general his film reviews and opinions have mirrored mine.

 

In the Houston game he was average. There were some issues on his end and there was some issues with regard to the scheme.  He definitely had an unwillingness to run and that was problematic.

 

In the Minnesota game he was a little above average, still not "good" but definitely workable and what you'd want to see him stay around as a floor. Still not seemingly willing to really be a playmaker, but at least willing to run a bit. When he actually decides to commit he still has the "it" factor and speed to make a difference but just doesn't seem to want to commit as much. A number of the sacks were as much, if not more, on protection (including Helu, who was problematic on a number of them) than necessarily on him.

 

This game was a dumpster fire. It was bad. His worst game as a professional, hands down. A number of instances where he missed reads, held onto the ball too long, looked tentative, etc. IF he plays like this another game or two then it's time to bail. It's unfortunate, but this kind of bad game just can't be common place. However, it's one game out of what, 33? It's by far the worst, meaning most haven't been anywhere near this bad. There's reason to think this isn't going to be the norm....but if it is, that's a problematic.

 

If he gives you another game or two like what we just saw, you likely end up sitting him so you can actually evaluate your other guys effectively and you move on in the off season.

 

If we see pretty much what we saw in Minnesota and no improvement past that, then you probably go into next year full on open competition and maybe look at a QB in the draft IF you fall in love. You don't extend him.

 

If the Minnesota game ends up being the floor for the rest of the year, and he shows some improvement with some good games in the mix, then you probably go into next year with Griffin as the likely starter and possibly picking up the 5th year option and using the draft pick to build the rest of the team.

 

What actually happens? It'll be interesting t osee.

[Voice_of_Reason]

-Oh, and I would throw at least 6 vertical/go/take-off routes every game

 I agree 100% with this.  But you've got to hit the guys when they're open.  Professional QBs hit open guys consistently. Even if they are 40 yards down field.  Griffin HAD been doing that, but didn't against Tampa.  Concerning.  

 

Also, you could do more max protect with intermediate routes.

Fewer receivers, give Griffin more time in the pocket.

I thought they did that a few times, but would have to look at it to be sure.  

 

I think that part of the problem is that Griffin is feeling pressure, at times, before it's there.  That could be a function of having a turnstile at LG and RG. But there are times when the pocket is clean, and he just senses pressure, and bails before he needs to.  

 

There are also times when he gets sacked in under 2 seconds, and it's not on him at all.  

[Alexa]

Put him on the bench if he starts the game out like he did last week. Seriously it's not even fair to the entire team if one guy is playing that badly. He had an average game against the Vikings, and missed a lot of open guys,  but at least he made some plays. Last week? Nothing.

[SouthsideDC]

This is almost mind boggling if I'm analyzing it right. Play was 3rd Q, 10:22. There are seemingly FIVE guys open on this play, but Robert pulls the ball down and heads out of the pocket? What i am seeing more and more is a habit of breaking the pocket really early and not letting routes play out.

image.jpg

Classic case of watching the pass rush instead of looking down field. He doesn't trust the line blocking and is immediately looking to escape and find space. He is seeing ghost, he has to get over it, I think that Minnesota game when he stood there and threw the pass but got hit in the legs is making him nervous. As someone that had a major leg injury myself I remember the mental hurdle of people around my leg and how it change my game until I got over it. 

 

I can imagine a guy that is trying to fight the stigma of being injury prone is really thinking about it. All of his on field problems he will just have to play through and he will be better having dealt with the adversity if he can get over the mental hurdles and playing cautious not trying to make a mistake or get hurt to avoid criticism from the fans, local and national media and now his Head Coach in the national media. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Put him on the bench if he starts the game out like he did last week. Seriously it's not even fair to the entire team if one guy is playing that badly. He had an average game against the Vikings, and missed a lot of open guys,  but at least he made some plays. Last week? Nothing.

I don't think this is the thread for that discussion.