2014 Official All 22 Coaches Film Thread - Nothing But All 22 Questions and Observations

[darrelgreenie]

If teams know "he holds the ball" now and they are willing to say that in the press like McCoy did post-game, I don't know that limiting receivers is the right answer.

I'm talking about running at the defense until we catch them in a known run defense then hit them with hard run action, with 2 well defined downfield reads like a deep over and a double move/vertical takeoff. Historically Griffin has been good off play-action and we haven't run that much play-action this year especially 1st down play-action.

 

He's got to get the ball out quicker.

And he's actually been good at throwing quick, but I would spread it out to clarify the reads and have Griff work the outside receivers more as opposed to middle of the field.

  

I agree with vertical routes.  Don't know where/when/how he lost his seam vision. 

He hit a couple seams to Niles (iirc) against the Texans/Jags, so the vision should still be there we gotta keep dialing it up.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Neither here nor there but wanted to complete a thought that I mentioned in my breakdown on the 1st play. Which to be clear: I GRADED AS A NEGATIVE PLAY. 

Here is Griffin hittin a pop pass against the Falcons.

Just wanted to post this to point out how quickly Davis gets his head around compared to Reed.

Davis gets his head around immediately and Reed doesn't get his head around til he's about 4-5 yards downfield.

 

much thanks to SkinsInsite

[DC9]

Maybe someone can do the study on this, but what stands out to me is that when Robert moves - and he often moves entirely too early - he often fails to get his body in position to actually do anything. He is either drifting backwards or running directly towards the sideline.

 

Roethlisberger is a silly comparison because he is 400 pounds and is impervious to pain, but when he starts moving the ball is in a position to come out with proper technique. Rogers on the move is like a film you would should on how to keep your mechanics while rolling out. Wilson tends to look to run more than he should, but he's in a good running position. RGIII seems to have the ball to on his hip and his feet going in a different direction than his head half the time and everything becomes a mess.

 

It's difficult to imagine how a QB could be in a worse position to throw the ball on that first interception.

 

A dude that athletic should be devastating out of the pocket.

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I am talking about when I say "he flails".  Sometimes it works, but most of the time it doesn't.  I don't know that there is anything you can do to coach that up, but I'd have to yield to anything KD would have to say.

 

That's kind of the "when you are under pressure you revert back to what/who you are" thing I keep harping on.

He also said that every time Griffin moves to his left, he completely loses sight of the field.  What's interesting about that is one of griffin's best plays of 2012, a 4th down conversion at the end of the Giants game to Paulsen, he moved to his left, kept his head up, set and threw a beautiful pass.  But he's apparently forgotten how to do that.

 

If you re-watch that play, Moss is literally wide open right in front of Griffin past the sticks.  Honestly when I saw the ball sail past Moss I wasn't sure what was going on when I watched that live.

 

He struggles throwing across his body, too (as DG posts).  If you ever go to a game and watch him in warm-ups, when he throws to his right it's almost perfect every time, but when he throws across his body it lacks the right touch or is inaccurate.  The WR almost always has to adjust.  I noticed that even in 2012 watching him in warm ups.

[Jumbo]

Contrary to the old saying, I can emphasize enough how the OP's title should be taken literally. 

 

I happen to have an emphasis button. 

 

 

Also, note earlier posts where is was stated by the OP and other members (very intelligently and right on the money) that this was not to be just another RG3 thread. Now I'm saying so, too.

 

I believe someone is starting an all-22 RG3 thread, separate, knowing the audience.

[DC9]

I'm talking about running at the defense until we catch them in a known run defense then hit them with hard run action, with 2 well defined downfield reads like a deep over and a double move/vertical takeoff. Historically Griffin has been good off play-action and we haven't run that much play-action this year especially 1st down play-action.

 

Whoever is doing gifs, we did this against the Giants in 2012 on MNF.  I think it was early in the game cause I remember seeing the Giants playing single over with the FS and the SS was robbing so they were trying to take the middle of the field away (the pop pass).  So they ran the pop pass and I think it was Morgan or Garcon ran a post-corner and it was open.  Funny thing was the defense was actually in 2 over on that play but it still worked.

 

But for that to work Griffin needs to run well enough to force that coverage again.  If you run 50 series stuff well a lot of that old 2012 stuff opens back up.  But he doesn't grow as a passer and essentially that's all he can and will be able to do.

 

Cause right now, if we ran well and were in a known down and distance for the run I'm still playing brackets on the WR until Griffin shows he can beat it.  Just my opinion, though.

 

And he's actually been good at throwing quick, but I would spread it out to clarify the reads and have Griff work the outside receivers more as opposed to middle of the field.

 

 

He's not getting the ball out quick, dg... if you don't trust me at least trust Chris Cooley.

 

He hit a couple seams to Niles (iirc) against the Texans/Jags, so the vision should still be there we gotta keep dialing it up.

 

 

I don't remember 100% but I think the Niles pass against the Texans (that's where he fumbled inside the 10 right?) was late.  The majority of his misses have been intermediate and outside and in the seam.  So you have to start from the basics.  The very basics, imo.  Quick slants, boots, that whole bit.

 

I saw Sunday we were doing boot routes out of the zone read (sweep style) and he got those out pretty good.  I can't for the life of me understand why we aren't doing stretch boots from under center.  Any ideas there?

EDIT:  Sorry Jumbo.

[TheItalianStallion]

Hoo boy, those pics don't look good. I hope this ends up being like the Denver game last year, where Griffin bounces back the following week with a good game vs SD/SF.

 

Garcon's numbers are down from the previous 2 years. Any breakdowns on him, this past week or earlier weeks? Has he not been getting open, or are our QBs just not seeing him, or both? He looked WIDE open on that play from the MIN game shown earlier in the thread.

[darrelgreenie]

But for that to work Griffin needs to run well enough to force that coverage again.  If you run 50 series stuff well a lot of that old 2012 stuff opens back up.  But he doesn't grow as a passer and essentially that's all he can and will be able to do.

See, I'm actually against more 50 series unless we really intend to expand it the way Seattle does. We kinda only dabble in it and if we're gonna dabble and not build it upon I saw we should just scrap. It takes away time in practice that can be spent on other stuff.

And I don't think we need the 50 series to hold the backside contain on stretch runs. Griffin's mere presence plus a couple of boots-swaps will be good enough. However, we have to run the ball better to get the defense to believe it enough to get them into a known coverage. I think we could steal a few pages from classic Mike Shanahan Denver WCO ala Jake Plummer/Cutler where we stretch and boot teams to death.

And stretch-boot helps builds a base of footwork from under center for Griffin to build on.

 

He's not getting the ball out quick, dg... if you don't trust me at least trust Chris Cooley.

He didn't get the ball out quick vs the Bucs yeah. But historically he's good throwing quick even last year: Showed well on shorter drops (4-6 yards) at +2.6. (from PFF)

 

Think back to the 2013 Giants game where Griff was like 12/12 throwing mostly quick stuff.

 

 

I don't remember 100% but I think the Niles pass against the Texans (that's where he fumbled inside the 10 right?) was late.  The majority of his misses have been intermediate and outside and in the seam.  So you have to start from the basics.  The very basics, imo.  Quick slants, boots, that whole bit.

Nothing wrong with the basics. Plenty of teams build their passing games around running the basics.

I'm all for throwing more slants and especially more skinny posts to Garcon. Garcon was a beast running the bang-8/skinny post off play-action and we have to find away to get Garcon involved in the passing game with something more then a bubble or a hitch.

Another route I would like to see more is the drag/shallow cross vs man to man.

 

.... I can't for the life of me understand why we aren't doing stretch boots from under center.  Any ideas there?

I can't wrap my head around that either.

[DC9]

Garcon's numbers are down from the previous 2 years. Any breakdowns on him, this past week or earlier weeks? Has he not been getting open, or are our QBs just not seeing him, or both? He looked WIDE open on that play from the MIN game shown earlier in the thread.

 

Hazzard is doing some stuff on this, so I'll post it when he goes in on it.  Basically it comes down to Kyle being really good at featuring one WR and finding ways to get him open.  Remember, Kyle was a WR at Texas, so he understands that stuff really well (so if you have Josh Gordon in fantasy --- start him this week).

He didn't get the ball out quick vs the Bucs yeah. But historically he's good throwing quick even last year: Showed well on shorter drops (4-6 yards) at +2.6. (from PFF)

 

Think back to the 2013 Giants game where Griff was like 12/12 throwing mostly quick stuff.

 

Screen passes or three step drops?  Cause they're different.  Elite QBs are throwing 15 and 20 yards down the field on 2 step drops.  We're not close to that.

[darrelgreenie]

Screen passes or three step drops?  Cause they're different.  Elite QBs are throwing 15 and 20 yards down the field on 2 step drops.  We're not close to that.

C'mon do I have to everything around here? 3 step drops:

 

https://pff-pffanalysisltd12.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/4-6-Yd-Drop.png

 

 

And btw- Griffin was 4th in YPA at 8.0 (ahead of some elite QBs like Brady and Rodgers)

[DC9]

C'mon do I have to everything around here? 3 step drops:

 

https://pff-pffanalysisltd12.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/4-6-Yd-Drop.png

 

And btw- Griffin was 4th in YPA at 8.0 (ahead of some elite QBs like Brady and Rodgers)

 

Is that supposed to be impressive?   (remember... be civil! )

 

It doesn't say they aren't screen passes.  4th in YPA and 2nd in YAC.

 

Let's heed Jumbo's warning and take this to another thread, though.  You pick the spot and I'll be there.

[Samuels]

This is what happens when you hire your buddy a WCO disciple. If RG3 was to suceed they needed to hire a coach or OC to fit his game. I personally wanted Gus Malzahn. Robert should never ever be under center period. I'd bet anything you put him in Philly with Chip Kelly he is a star.

Rg3 is learning to play from under center and a WCO. On top of this his line is absolutely pathetic. Watch Peyton Mannings all 22 vs Seahawks or even Rams when the heat is on different player not comfortable.

Watching a notorious Qb like Rodgers who holds the ball stand back in the pocket and eat ham sandwiches after our game was sickening.

If Dan, Bruce and Jay want him to succeed here. They need to build that O-line like Dallas did make it the strenght of the team. If you dont wanna do that you better be open to uptempo no huddle spread, read option, sprint outs etc or its a wrap for him in DC.

Right now its a square peg into a round hole it dont work. As a coach brought into to develop him he should be smart enough to figure it out. I coach youth ball and it baffles me how many teams at every level force there scheme on people instead of adapting to what you have play to your strenght.

[darrelgreenie]

It doesn't say they aren't screen passes.  4th in YPA and 2nd in YAC.

Actually the categories are defined by PFF: 4-6 Yds (3 step game). Their 1-3 Yds category covers the screen game and other really quick throws.

And he's tied for 4th in YAC, one spot ahead of Peyton Manning are you trying to pretend that YAC in the 3 step game is a bad thing?

C'mon bro, if you're gonna correct someone and are proven wrong, just admit and move on don't belittle/beg the point. What I said is correct Griffin historically does quick stuff well.

From the OP:

Also feel free to add in analysis from sites like Pro Football Focus.

And my post did contain screen caps from all-22 also.

[Jumbo]

Glad you pointed that out, dg, and it does make the title rather misleading.  If you guys had been given a time-out, what a bother that would have been to straighten out.

 

 

Now help us keep this from being just another "all RG3 talk" thread. We need all the help we can get. 

[DC9]

Actually the categories are defined by PFF: 4-6 Yds (3 step game). Their 1-3 Yds category covers the screen game and other really quick throws.

And he's tied for 4th in YAC, one spot ahead of Peyton Manning are you trying to pretend that YAC in the 3 step game is a bad thing?

C'mon bro, if you're gonna correct someone and are proven wrong, just admit and move on don't belittle/beg the point. What I said is correct Griffin historically does quick stuff well.

 

 

I didn't correct, I'm clarifying (But since your pea**** feathers are up let's go in ) cause I know PFF grades things differently.  I read how they graded Orakpo so well but it didn't seem to translate to the field, and when I read that a defender who makes a tackle like ten yards down the field (which I would call a hustle play) is graded as negative --- even though they didn't miss a tackle, I wrote them off.

 

So basically -- PFF grades this as a negative play for Darrell Green:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1aWUFYwL5U

 

So to clarify - I have to ask - 4 to 6 yard drop - does that mean we are counting the 3 yards that he's in in the Pistol or the 5 yards that we're in when he's in Shotgun?  Or is he legitimately dropping back 4 to 6 yards from under Center or from the Pistol/Gun?

 

EDIT:  And let's also not be the one who talks about "belittling a point" when proven wrong.  ESPECIALLY in this thread.

[RandyHolt]

He seems to self destruct fighting his instinct to scramble away from danger, if only perceived. So he goes into a sprint when he should just be adjusting his feet to stay in a pocket / set to throw.

 

He has no confidence in the OL. Even without pressure he is expecting it. For the reason that he is usually right.

 

Rookie year with all the confidence he was almost unstoppable.

 

Its all about confidence. The injuries may have a hand in his concerns to sprint out of danger, but in the end, its no confidence in his protection.
 

Something the all 22 can't show to support my theory.

 

He knows how to throw a bubble screen. The TEs and Backs cannot block as well this year. Lauvao is Chester II. RG3 reflects his protections, to the point he is bailing early and often.

[KDawg]

 

 

So to clarify - I have to ask - 4 to 6 yard drop - does that mean we are counting the 3 yards that he's in in the Pistol or the 5 yards that we're in when he's in Shotgun?  Or is he legitimately dropping back 4 to 6 yards from under Center or from the Pistol/Gun?

 

EDIT:  And let's also not be the one who talks about "belittling a point" when proven wrong.  ESPECIALLY in this thread.

 

Generally, it's 4-6 from the center. You won't drop 4-6 from pistol. 

[DC9]

Generally, it's 4-6 from the center. You won't drop 4-6 from pistol. 

 

That's what I am asking though... he's already 3 yards back in the Pistol - so is the "4 - 6 yard drop" really a one step drop from the Pistol?

 

I only ask cause of how crazy some of their grades are.  Their end products are often pretty good, but three guys on our team that they've rated well in the past are: Orakpo, Biggers, and RG3 and I would just assume watch tape then look at weird advanced stats (I guess I'm starting to get old).

 

However, there had better be someone in our FO that understands this stuff and knows how to apply it.  If not, we should fix that.

 

EDIT:  I don't know how to find these stats, but an easy way to look (imo) would be how many passing plays did Griffin take a snap from under center on and maybe we can further extrapolate from there?

[KDawg]

That's what I am asking though... he's already 3 yards back in the Pistol - so is the "4 - 6 yard drop" really a one step drop from the Pistol?

 

I only ask cause of how crazy some of their grades are.  Their end products are often pretty good, but three guys on our team that they've rated well in the past are: Orakpo, Biggers, and RG3 and I would just assume watch tape then look at weird advanced stats (I guess I'm starting to get old).

 

However, there had better be someone in our FO that understands this stuff and knows how to apply it.  If not, we should fix that.

 

EDIT:  I don't know how to find these stats, but an easy way to look (imo) would be how many passing plays did Griffin take a snap from under center on and maybe we can further extrapolate from there?

 

I thought I answered when I said you won't drop 4-6 from pistol. I guess I wasn't specific though, so fair enough. It turns into settle footwork, really. 

 

A three step drop from pistol is more like a positioning step to get body turned. Five step is a yard or two back. Remember, the time it takes for the ball to get to the QB and for him to catch it is (without any data to back me) slightly faster than an under center 3 or 5 step drop. 

 

Three step plays are quicker hitters, so if you caught the ball from pistol and then dropped three, your quick game concepts would have already been completed while you're still dropping.

[DC9]

I thought I answered when I said you won't drop 4-6 from pistol. I guess I wasn't specific though, so fair enough. It turns into settle footwork, really. 

 

A three step drop from pistol is more like a positioning step to get body turned. Five step is a yard or two back. Remember, the time it takes for the ball to get to the QB and for him to catch it is (without any data to back me) slightly faster than an under center 3 or 5 step drop. 

 

Three step plays are quicker hitters, so if you caught the ball from pistol and then dropped three, your quick game concepts would have already been completed while you're still dropping.

 

No you were, I'm making this difficult cause I don't know it. I appreciate you guys holding my hand through it.

 

DG just pm'ed me the link.

 

So it's measuring throws from drop depth.  So 4-6 yard drop depth would be 1 step from the pistol.  That's what I was looking for. 

 

So the 4 - 6 yard figure above does include screen passes from the pistol, it doesn't necessarily demonstrate any overwhelming prowess by Griffin throwing "3 step routes" well.  Which is good, cause that matches up with the film.

[KDawg]

 

 

So the 4 - 6 yard figure above does include screen passes from the pistol, it doesn't necessarily demonstrate any overwhelming prowess by Griffin throwing "3 step routes" well.  Which is good, cause that matches up with the film.

 

I couldn't tell you that. But pistol depth is usually at four yards to begin with. So a screen pass would be a catch, turn, throw. You'd probably be no deeper than 4.5 yards at that point.

[MartinC]

Generally, it's 4-6 from the center. You won't drop 4-6 from pistol. 

 

Almost always a one step drop from pistol. If they want to get deeper routes they will do 3 step from pistol which is normally timed so its very similar to a 7 step drop from under centre.

I couldn't tell you that. But pistol depth is usually at four yards to begin with. So a screen pass would be a catch, turn, throw. You'd probably be no deeper than 4.5 yards at that point.

 

Personally if I was running a running back screen out of pistol I would use a 3 step drop to allow the D'Line to get up field. If I'm running a bubble screen then I want the ball out of the QBs hands as fast as possible and its catch, turn, throw.

[darrelgreenie]

...So it's measuring throws from drop depth. So 4-6 yard drop depth would be 1 step from the pistol. That's what I was looking for.

So the 4 - 6 yard figure above does include screen passes from the pistol, it doesn't necessarily demonstrate any overwhelming prowess by Griffin throwing "3 step routes" well. Which is good, cause that matches up with the film.

To be clear, I said Griffin historically has been good throwing quick, which is true. I thought it would be accepted that 4-6 yard depth would show the ability to throw quick. Now, if we're going to drill down further to hash out the screen passes from 3-step under center/1-2 step from shotgun/pistol we can do that because PFF actually list screen passes separately.

Neither here nor there PFF has a lot of good information, and a lot of it is free their link to screen passes is below:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/17/qbs-in-focus-screens/

If the OP is interested this link from PFF (free) covers all their QB metrics:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/03/qbs-in-focus/

^^It covers 16 different QB categories

Anyhow...last year Griffin threw 31 WR/TE screens and 8 RB screens.

Griffin threw 110 passes from the 4-6 yard range which leaves 71 3-step/1-2 step shotgun/pistol in the 4-6 yard category.

[darrelgreenie]

...But now you got me thinking about some screen pass openers I would like.....(i don't have any vid of 3-step yet maybe SkinsInsite will hook me later)

 

 

Why don't way use Helu more in 1st and 2nd downs? Although he *struggles* in pass pro he's a good runner and very good receiving option.

 

[KDawg]

 

 

Personally if I was running a running back screen out of pistol I would use a 3 step drop to allow the D'Line to get up field. If I'm running a bubble screen then I want the ball out of the QBs hands as fast as possible and its catch, turn, throw.

 

Sorry. Given our offense I was assuming that WR screen was the implied variation.

[DC9]

Why don't way use Helu more in 1st and 2nd downs? Although he *struggles* in pass pro he's a good runner and very good receiving option.

 

 

I'm in the minority of thinking Helu is our best RB.  I wanted us to draft him in the 3rd round prior to the draft that year so getting him in the 4th (even with a trade up was very exciting to me).

 

His durability is really his only weakness to go along with blitz pick-up.

 

I suspect it has something more to do with reps in practice.

 

But the film also shows us that he's in for most of our hurry-up plays.  That's why (to me) the Morris draws were interesting calls on that last drive. 

[KDawg]

I'm in the minority of thinking Helu is our best RB.  I wanted us to draft him in the 3rd round prior to the draft that year so getting him in the 4th (even with a trade up was very exciting to me).

 

His durability is really his only weakness to go along with blitz pick-up.

 

I suspect it has something more to do with reps in practice.

 

But the film also shows us that he's in for most of our hurry-up plays.  That's why (to me) the Morris draws were interesting calls on that last drive. 

 

 I want a running back that can run, catch, and block. Helu's blocking is bad. The best overall back we have in my opinion is D. Young. He does all of the above. He's not an every down kind of guy, but I'm surprised he isn't ever utilized as a 3rd down back. 

 

Morris is our best runner/best every down blitz pick up guy.

Helu is our most explosive

Young is our third/fourth best runner, best blocker by a large margin, and has good hands.

Redd the jury is still out on.