This is an example of why being a teacher really sucks...

[dfitzo53]

Just how bad is common core? I have lot of friends with kids complaining about it weekly.

 

Is it really as bad as they say? Or just different?

 

BTW - sorry to hear about your coworker, code. She definitely didn't deserve the flak.

There are some issues with the common core, moreso in younger grades than in older grades.

 

For the most part people who are complaining about the common core don't actually understand it.  That's not to say that there aren't problems, just that most of the complaints come from people repeating hearsay or taking something out of context.

 

The Youtube video is case in point.  No reasonable teacher would tell a student not to use the standard subtraction algorithm for 32-12.  In fact, once the student has a grasp of how place value works the problem needn't be written at all.  That's part of the point of the "count up" method that the video is showing.  It's designed to help students think logically about numbers and build number sense.

 

I will grant you that not all teachers are great teachers, and it's especially true that not all elementary teachers are great math teachers.  If their own thinking is rigid they're going to do a poor job of teaching mathematics that requires a more open thought process.

 

 

 

All of that said, I also wonder whether parents really do a much worse job now than in previous generations.  We all know adults who are still brats.

 

Take a look at movies like Concrete Jungle.  The idea of students being outright violent in school or not taking the work seriously is not new.  The idea of parents believing that school is not important (and passing that on to their kids intentionally or unintentionally) is not new.  I don't think the idea of parents irrationally taking their child's side is even new.  The main change is probably in terms of the way administrations handle that complaint, not the complaint itself.

[codeorama]

My only response is that in the years that I have been a teacher, you can see a slight decline each year. Each year is a little worse in terms of discipline and knowledge.

Sure, there are universal problems and yes, the way admin deals with problems is a huge issue. But, I view our society as the Fall of Rome. History is repeating itself.

[CrypticVillain]

IF education in our society is going to be fixed, they need to take a model more like Germany. Identify the kids that are not college material.  Once they get to the HS age, divert them to technical training. Give them a shot at succeeding in life.  As it is, they think every child is going to college.  So not true.  If the kids knew that they would be sent to a trade school, it may have an impact.  As it is now, there are no consequences to their ignorance.

 

Now we're getting somewhere. 

 

I didn't know that Germany taught school like that. I think that is a brilliant idea. College isn't for everybody. I know it's barely for me.

[Corcaigh]

Ken Robinson has spoken a number of times at TED on education and is a compelling (and very funny) speaker:

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_how_to_escape_education_s_death_valley

[TheGreatBuzz]

I think this is a lot of the reason my wife and I chose not to have children.  Not that we can't be good parents, just don't want to have to deal with the stupidity of all the other kids and parents.

[War Paint]

You don't have to abuse a child, mentally or physically, to be a good parent. You just have to care. Seems like parents don't care like they used to anymore. Or if they do care, they care more about giving their child what they (child and parent) want instead of giving the child what they need. 

I'm not saying they have to abuse a child, but the definition of abuse these days is a lot more broader than it once was.  In past generations, if you misbehaved, you'd get paddled.  These days, that is illegal in most states.  In the past, the dad pulled his belt out and popped the butt of his misbehaving kid.  These days, a lot will say that's abuse.  Well, is that abuse or old school discipline?  I know when I got spanked by my Dad, I cut out my bad behavior.

[codeorama]

MLSkins, I met an older gentleman, that I started a thread about a while back. He's 85, he met Hitler when he was 5. He lived through WWII and Nazi Germany. He was so interesting.  His daughter is really high up at Penn St, he's a really smart guy.  We talked about education and pointed out how Germany models their education system this way.  They place students in apprentice situations where they get paid a little, the plumber or whom ever gets a cheap assistant for a couple of years and then, the kids learn a trade.  They don't waste tax dollars in public schools.  He said it motivates many because they don't want to do manual labor, so they do better in school.

[CrypticVillain]

I'm not saying they have to abuse a child, but the definition of abuse these days is a lot more broader than it once was.  In past generations, if you misbehaved, you'd get paddled.  These days, that is illegal in most states.  In the past, the dad pulled his belt out and popped the butt of his misbehaving kid.  These days, a lot will say that's abuse.  Well, is that abuse or old school discipline?  I know when I got spanked by my Dad, I cut out my bad behavior.

And I hear that. But I'm just saying, you don't have to spank a child to get them to listen. I think it helps, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Or so I heard...

 

MLSkins, I met an older gentleman, that I started a thread about a while back. He's 85, he met Hitler when he was 5. He lived through WWII and Nazi Germany. He was so interesting.  His daughter is really high up at Penn St, he's a really smart guy.  We talked about education and pointed out how Germany models their education system this way.  They place students in apprentice situations where they get paid a little, the plumber or whom ever gets a cheap assistant for a couple of years and then, the kids learn a trade.  They don't waste tax dollars in public schools.  He said it motivates many because they don't want to do manual labor, so they do better in school.

Like I said, that's brilliant man. Would love to have some of that implemented in this country. but again, that's another pipe dream. It'll never happen. It makes too much sense. But that would be a good strategy. 

[daveakl]

Come to wake county. They want to get rid of 0s for turning in no work because it's such a dramatic grade. 50 would be the new low.

[Warhead36]

MLSkins, I met an older gentleman, that I started a thread about a while back. He's 85, he met Hitler when he was 5. He lived through WWII and Nazi Germany. He was so interesting.  His daughter is really high up at Penn St, he's a really smart guy.  We talked about education and pointed out how Germany models their education system this way.  They place students in apprentice situations where they get paid a little, the plumber or whom ever gets a cheap assistant for a couple of years and then, the kids learn a trade.  They don't waste tax dollars in public schools.  He said it motivates many because they don't want to do manual labor, so they do better in school.

That would be amazing if it were implemented here, but it never will be because parents don't want to admit that they're kids aren't college material until it's too late. You can usually identify by the time a kid is like 12 if he's going to have a shot at college.

 

And lets be honest, going to college is no end all be all either. I have friends of mine with college degrees that ended up having to work as baristas and waiters because they couldn't land jobs.

[codeorama]

Youngchew, Sadly, I agree. So many things make sense but we keep going in the wrong direction.

 

I totally think that the motivation aspect would work.  Kids don't see consequences to their lack of effort. If they knew that they would have to go learn a trade and that their education was not guaranteed, they would change in many cases.

daveakl, I do much worse, I don't have zeros. They are required to make up all work. I am persistent.  I will not allow them to take a zero. They hate it.

[mjah]

Here's a true story.  A friend of mine teaches at a middle school whose community has a bad-parent reputation.  One of his students in particular was a nightmare for months, to the point where they called the mother in.  Sitting down with the teacher and principal before school one day, she immediately began blaming everyone but the kid for the problem.  

 

So he proposed an experiment.

 

One quirk of the 1940s-era classroom my friend teaches in is the fact that it has a mirrored closet in the corner of the room.  The closet used to be a tiny observation room, and it still has its second door to the hallway at the back of the closet.  The mirror is, in fact, a half-silvered one way mirror allowing someone to sit in there unseen and watch the room.  It had not been used for that purpose for decades.  My friend's idea was simple: "Get a chair, sit quietly in the closet, and watch your son."  

 

This grossly violates informed-consent principles so he expected a flat "no" from the principal at least.  Surprisingly, both the principal and the mother agreed to the idea out of desperation.  A few minutes later she sneaked into the closet, my friend started class, and immediately the kid started to act like a complete idiot.

 

After five minutes the mother burst out of the closet and started screaming at her kid, getting in his face to call him a worthless piece of crap and every other name in the book.

 

Problem solved, so to speak -- the kid hasn't created any trouble since.  But it's clear where a lot of classroom problems come from...

[codeorama]

Man, great story. I wish we had cameras in the class room.  That would be a game changer.  Bad teachers would be gone. Bad students would be "fixed".

[zoony]

Germany has a lot of its own problems stemming from their methods

[Jumbo]

 

I don't get it. I try to learn new stuff every day. Even silly stuff ( Read about Ed Wood the other day) .

 

 

 OT, but people who are into movies (particularly the "cult classic" genre) but are unfamiliar with Ed Wood need to get with it.

 

Just as a first step, watch Plan 9 From Outer Space several times and soak in awe as you convulse with laughter. Cosmic!

 

It's held up as well as Rocky Horror (minus the viewer role-reenactment part) to decades of heavy use by at least three generations of we visionaries.

Germany has a lot of its own problems stemming from their methods

 

An indictment from which no nation is spared. 

 

But those are my people. 

 

Racist. 

[Corcaigh]

The cookie-cutter approach is a problem.

 

We don't want an education system based around the principle that everyone will be a university professor, but we similarly don't want a system that determines by age 14 that you are not smart enough to have further academic education. People have very different learning styles and rates of maturity.

[codeorama]

Great point and very true. I guess I'm just frustrated because I don't see any relief in sight.  

My son is in the second grade and he is a smart kid, does well etc... I was told that he and my nephew are fought over each year between the teachers. They all want them in their class.  Literally, my son is getting "recruited" by third grade teachers. I've had to ask him to get me to ask for them.  The sad part is that even at that age (8years old), he comes home with stories about how bad the kids are. SOmething has to change

[Corcaigh]

And for those who wonder how to improve their child's education ... the single greatest determining factor is your zip code. 

[CrypticVillain]

And for those who wonder how to improve their child's education ... the single greatest determining factor is your zip code. 

Unfortunately, but it is the true.

 

 

I have been meaning to throw this song on here because I thought it was an artistic way point some blame to the education system. I don't see any other thread no time soon that would be better to post this in...

 

[No Excuses]

 

IF education in our society is going to be fixed, they need to take a model more like Germany. Identify the kids that are not college material.  Once they get to the HS age, divert them to technical training. Give them a shot at succeeding in life.  As it is, they think every child is going to college.  So not true.  If the kids knew that they would be sent to a trade school, it may have an impact.  As it is now, there are no consequences to their ignorance.  

 

This really isn't a good way of fixing things because many kids don't figure it out until they get to college. I teach at the University where I am receiving my PhD. and I've seen it first hand with my students (who are mostly freshmen since I teach intro Bio). I've seen them change right in front of me during the semester from over pampered brats into good studious kids. 

 

I can share my own story with you. I was a total **** up in high school who hung out with the wrong crowd and left with a 2.6 GPA. I got into a really mediocre school but I worked my ass of in my first year and got close to a 4.0 GPA. I think my transformation had a lot to do with finally getting away from other bad kids. I then transferred to a top 50 university and graduated with a high GPA and tons of workplace experience on the side. As soon as I finished my bachelors, I was admitted into a Neuroscience PhD program at the same university. Six years ago I was hanging out and associating with the just about the worst people possible but I managed to pull myself out. It took me a while to cut those people out of my life. Just finally managed to get rid of the last one, a girl I associated with from back then but finally cut her out for good last year as well. I know I'm not the only one who has gone through such a change because I've seen this to be true for many others.

 

My point is, kids in middle and high school do dumb ****. I would wager and say they've always done dumb ****. Sometimes I see the 30's and 40's crowd and I'm amazed by how stupid they are.

 

Heck, I'm maybe two years from finishing my PhD and I'm still battling a lot of my demons from the past. To destine children towards a path based on decisions when they have barely matured is fairly ridiculous IMO. 

 

I think we can start by educating on what exactly the market demands in terms of jobs. There is very little demand for a lot of popular majors like Psychology or Criminal Justice. What needs to happen is that the education system and parents stress high skill jobs, things that you will always need smart people for. Engineering, economics, finance, biomedical research, doctors etc. A lot of other careers are going the way of the dodo bird.

[mjah]

I had a high school buddy who spent his entire senior year talking about how he wasn't college material but felt like he was supposed to go anyway.  Sure enough, he lasted one semester at a university, getting one C and the rest D/F grades, before dropping out.  The very poster child for the kid who shouldn't have gone to college in the first place and might have been shunted off into a more appropriate vocational track instead.  I didn't see or hear from him again for 20 years.

 

Last year I googled him on a whim.  He moved out west and after returning to college, kept going to receive his PhD in biochemistry.

 

It's an anecdote.  Still, the notion of shunting teenagers off into rigid "this or that" college vs. vocational tracks seems too rigid in my view.  

 

Of course, at the time this kid ironically might have welcomed that path, had it been presented as a legitimate alternative at my high school.  We had a lot of vocational ed there -- but it was seen as a far less desirable dead-end dumping ground for those lacking in smarts, confidence, or maturity, rather than a choice between two walkable paths.  I think that point of view was/is fundamentally broken and ignorant, but I also imagine that forcing a rigid decision at age 15 might cause a huge number of Type II errors in the name of preventing Type I errors.

 

There must be a third way that values vocational skills without closing doors quite so firmly.

[codeorama]

I agree with both of the last posts, there is never 1 way that always works. Again, I'm frustrated. I see that many of these kids just can't read. They don't appreciate anything.  They don't say Thank you, they don't say excuse me.  They don't care.  I try so hard to get through and I do get through to many.  Some are great kids, but sadly, there is a pattern to the ones that don't get it.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Parents nowadays are soft.

 

I don't actually believe this.

 

The schedule and rules I have for my kids is absolutely insane compared to the lasseiz faire childhood I had. And everyone I know does it.

 

Today's parents are probably overly-involved, overly paranoid, and utterly convinced that every mark on their child's record is going to force them into drug abuse and homelessness one day. Combine that with schools that must achieve certain levels on standardized testing or face a nightmare, that must implement no-tolerance policies for all manner of sins, and that must do the former while satisfying all parents and you have, well, the American educational system.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

My only response is that in the years that I have been a teacher, you can see a slight decline each year. Each year is a little worse in terms of discipline and knowledge.

 

 

Said every teacher since the beginning of mandatory public education.

 

My mom just retired after 30 years as a high school teacher and she echoed a lot of the same sentiments you have. Kids don't care. Parents don't care. Everything is awful. At the same time, her teaching career began at a time of economic stability in my hometown and ended in a time of total economic collapse. So, which came first?

 

I've done alumini interviews for college applicants for the past 15 years, and the quality of student I see now utterly dwarfs the students I saw then. At the welcome party, we throw each year, all the alums have essentially the same belief, "We could never get into the school now with the current competition." Every kid I interview is fluent in two languages, dabbles in a third, has mastered a subject to the point that his or her school can no longer teach it, and devotes 40 hours a week to whatever extra-curricular activity is their passion. And they all seem to have run marathons too. (And they all want to major in economics, which is really depressing).

 

At the same time, in my mom's school (the school I graduated from), half the senior class can barely spell their own name and will probably fail out of junior college within six months.

 

Like everything else in America, we are becoming a two-class society, and those parents caught in the middle are desperately trying to push their children into the top class. There is a ton of desperation out there.

[Zguy28]

This is the big thing. How many times do you see kids that you know have no chance to go to college nor do they even want to? We can get these kids to get careers as plumbers, A/C repairmen, etc. which are solid and respectable lines of work as opposed to end up working at Micky D's or worse, gangbanging, but instead we treat everyone like they got a shot at Harvard. And that isn't even going into the scam that is college education.

I've actually had like three different HS grads come to me at church and ask if I thought it would be bad if they took up trade instead of college. They feel the pressure of a middle class suburbia and military/civil servant community. I told them to not go to college if they didn't want to. Take up a trade and start putting away retirement money now and compound the interest rather than accrue huge debt for something you don't want to do anyway.