WSET- Little Girl Taken Out Of Christian School After Told She's Too Much Like A Boy

[Zguy28]

I can't believe you're seriously going there. I think everyone on this board can attest to the fact that LSF is extremely qualified in whatever she speaks to on these issues, that as a small child she was aware of a difference in herself and other females she had interaction with, be it family members or playmates...she has very openly posted about it.

And that makes her qualified to speak on behalf of others...how? We can all speak from experience we've had ourselves, but experience can also disqualify us because it generates presuppositions.

[Forehead]

I'll never look at a Forehead post the same way ever again.

 

I have a feeling I'll be getting a lot of that in any thread I post in.  If you aren't a wrestling fan (no idea whether you are specifically) or don't know who Vince McMahon is, it might not make sense, but it is hilarious.

 

She's not a fru-fru poofy handbag dog!  She's the dog of a Lesbian!  And she's wearing Redskins shirt.  She's butch, she lifts her leg when she pees!  That proves she's not a fru-fru- poofy handbag dog! 

 

Plus, I don't carry a handbag.  My wallet resides nicely in my back pocket, like any self-respecting dyke!

 

You know, I haven't always agreed with everything you carry on about, probably not half of it.  But I have to admit, when you're in rare form like this, it is impossible not to like you

 

I have to say though, I don't really agree with your views on transgendered folks, but that's as much a personal thing.  A guy that I grew up with from 5th grade on came out post-college that he felt he was supposed to have been born a woman.  He grew his hair long, started taking estrogen, getting counseling, and (most awkwardly up front) coming over to our house (me and some old friends who lived together at the time) and dressing in women's clothing so he could get used to being around others.  We accepted it, though I couldn't presume to understand what was going on in his brain.

 

He moved away a few years ago, but last I knew, he was still pre-op; that sort of surgery is expensive and I don't know if he was scared to go through with it or what.  But much like I don't judge your lifestyle (I'm a passive Christian who doesn't think homosexuality is a sin), I don't understand it, brain-wiring wise, since I'm hetero.  Since you actively push for recognition and acceptance of your lifestyle, don't you think it would be best if you not put forth such strong, somewhat condemning, opinions of someone else's? 

[AdamB]

Skinsmarydu,

 

LSF has been very open about her childhood in regards to her sexual orientation, which is a good thing - not many are comfortable discussing it and more people need to hear it. However, trans* is not sexual orientation, it is gender identity. Being homosexual does not convey knowledge bout trans* issues, body chemistry, or psychology.

 

And to Spacepeguin's point - it is interesting that she has the stance she has considering what she has shared with us on the board. There are arguments being used to dismiss homosexual young adults such as it being abuse, a fad, influence of society and media, etc. Yet her own experiences prove that to be false in regards to homosexuality.

 

At the same time, she makes definitive statements that no one is "born in the wrong body" and that there is no such thing as "brain sex" and talks about it being the influence of society, the medical complex, and so forth. And like LSF in regards to homosexuality, individuals such as myself and my wife can go back to a very early age and say "Right here...this is when we knew we were different".

 

Added to that is the fact that there is medical research that has demonstrated different possible causes of trans* (thus eliminating or reducing societal pressures as an influence). Specifically in regards to transsexualism (what most think of in regards to transgender), the amount of pre-natal androgen exposure, differences in the development of androgen receptors, and even brain structure (trans-genders displaying a similar structure to that of the opposite sex in key areas).

 

LSF -

 

How much of your views on gender identity is based on your feminist views? I ask because after our earlier posts, I spent a few hours reading online (I figure that makes me an expert as far as online forums are concerned *lol*), and came across many references to Janice Raymond and her views on transsexualism, and they sound extremely close to what you have expressed.     

[skinsmarydu]

I was trying to add girl power support...sorry, LSF, if my post made this particular part of the debate last longer than you wanted it to.

[Larry]

I am admiring the way this "school" is admitting that The Gay is something that people can catch from a pair of sneakers, at age eight, though.

Seems to be a softening of the "it's a choice" line.

[pjfootballer]

Identity theft.

Just kidding, but probably someone with a similar name that they added.

I get mail from places and I wonder why too. Some of these places sell your info.

I do have a pretty common name. Same as the actor that recently died in a car wreck. I had my name 5 years before he did.

[twa]

I am admiring the way this "school" is admitting that The Gay is something that people can catch from a pair of sneakers, at age eight, though.

Seems to be a softening of the "it's a choice" line.

 

I would imagine it is more on the lines of not conforming and disruptive to their model./ideal

Definitely a matter of choice not to do so since they chose how to dress.

[LadySkinsFan]

I have read extensively on transgender and transsexualism.  And I don't think the 2 are the same either.  I think that you will agree that no one can change their chromosomes.  And those born male cannot ever know what it is really like to be female just as females cannot ever know what it is like to be male.

 

And yes, my views are feminist because I am a feminist.  And when transgender women try to guilt lesbians into having sex with them because they (the transgender woman) now consider themselves women, with male genitals included, then I have a problem with that.  Anyone can look up The Cotton Ceiling and see this particular bit of manipulation.  Sounds like every man who tries to have sex with lesbians.  Also, this movement is trying to redefine the definition of "woman/women" to include born males.  Feminists are reduced to using "female/females" and other stupid acronyms like female at birth (FAB) or female assigned at birth (FAAB) to refer to ourselves in company that may include transgender women.  All because some people feel like a woman. 

[The Evil Genius]

But that ignores, LSF, the estimated 0.1% to 1.7% of all births that fall into the intersex label. Some of who actually are scientifically able to claim they were born in the wrong body. 

 

 

 

To me - this case is more than just societal norms (I hate that term) being questioned/tweaked at.

 

There are other factors that might be at play that no one is really talking about. Sure, they are rare - but so? 

[LadySkinsFan]

Transgenders and transsexuals hijack the intersex condition, and I'm not talking about intersex people here.  The small percentage of those born with intersex conditions can treat their condition however they choose.  In fact, there is a huge movement among this population to stop parents and the medical industrial complex in making treatment choices for them at birth or in infancy, and to allow them to make these decisions when reaching puberty for themselves.

 

Most transgenders and transsexuals are not born with intersex conditions, they are either XX or XY.

[Jumbo]

My experience is that many people have comparatively little "real" knowledge of these matters (smaller populations in the demographics) unless they have a connection of some depth to the various communities. Even as recently as a decade ago there were only two APA certified experts in human sexuality in the four states  of AK/WA/OR/ID. Even the definition of terms used are often unclear to many, and some definitions are regularly debated by many within the various communities and sub-cultures.

 

From the APA site:

 

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice or body characteristics. “Trans” is sometimes used as shorthand for “transgender.” While transgender is generally a good term to use, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-nonconforming will identify as a transgender person. The ways that transgender people are talked about in popular culture, academia and science are constantly changing, particularly as individuals’ awareness, knowledge and openness about transgender people and their experiences grow.

 

 

also, fwiw:

 

Transgender and gender-variant people have a variety of concerns for which they may seek the assistance of psychologists. In addition to the usual problems that may bring any individual to therapy, transgender and gender-variant people often seek professional help in understanding their gender identities and patterns of gender expression and in addressing the complex social and relational issues that are affected by these.

Transgender persons not uncommonly seek medical services to make their bodies more congruent with their gender identities; involvement of mental health professionals is often necessary or desirable in arranging such services.

 

Moreover, many transgender and gender-variant people experience stigmatization and discrimination as a result of living in a gendered culture into which they often do not easily fit. They may not only experience an inner sense of not belonging but also discrimination, harassment, sometimes lethal violence and denial of basic human rights. These issues, too, often bring transgender people into contact with mental health professionals.

 

 

Here is much more for anyone interested;

 

http://www.apa.org/pubs/info/reports/gender-identity.aspx

 

 

 

That said, I think if an in-depth exchange on the very complex topic of transgender/transsexualism issues is going to continue, and in particular the equally complex matter of interaction with the gay/lesbian community--including any notions that all/most all members of the communities are that much more "on the same page" than many other demographics of more than a few hundred people--it should be in it's own thread as it is a very complicated and separate matter from the topic article's focus.

 

However, this is not a "mod directive" at this time, in this case, because I'd rather not obstruct an interesting and potentiality educational (in the positive sense) flow of content that is already unfolding, and it is at least a departure related to key aspects of the actual topic.

 

You guys make the call on this one, and the OP has a voice.

 

 

Right now it looks like a shift has settled in, and for my part mod-wise (if it matters    ), I'm ok with the departure in this case.

 

 

 

Empiricism only knows what zoony might do. 

[skinsmarydu]

Feminists are reduced to using "female/females" and other stupid acronyms like female at birth (FAB) or female assigned at birth (FAAB) to refer to ourselves in company that may include transgender women.  All because some people feel like a woman.

Yep, completely stupid. We've been buddies for awhile now, and if it's one thing I do know, you're still a girl, still do everything you can to further the liberties & rights of girls everywhere, and where you carry your wallet doesn't matter to me as long as you keep it up.LOL

[AdamB]

LSF:

 

What I am getting from your response is that you believe that gender is essentially XX or XY, not the other aspects which the majority include in the definition of gender? And that your views are primarily shaped by your feminist worldview which essentially excludes personal life experiences and (limited) medical and psychological research available? 

  

 

Edit:

 

I am going to back out of the thread for a bit. I edited this post because it felt a bit...attacking in nature, which was not my intent - basically I have been up all night reading material that was seriously pissing me off, and it bled a little into my response, a good sign that I need sleep.  

 

LSF, I am very serious when I say that I usually find your posts informative. I hope you do not take my responses as attacks. I strongly disagree with you on this topic, but I do try to understand other's points of views (hence the reading all night).

[Rocky21]

I’m having a hard time thinking of anything more hypocritical than the school sending this child’s guardians a letter stating that the school’s “biblical role is to work in conjunction with the home to mold students to be Christlike.”  Then they go on to judge the folks that are raising her in an atmosphere that is “counter to or in opposition to the biblical lifestyle that the school teaches.” 

 

Reading the tone and exact wording of the letter leads one to believe the writer doesn’t know what Christ taught at all. 

[Jumbo]

AdamB, you're manifesting a behavior in the tailgate that should be addressed: your openly stated intent to try to be reasonable, respectful, open, and genuinely interested in opposing/countering views, while still having very strong personal feelings/connection on a matter, including having membership in a very relevant demographic.

 

You need to watch that stuff.   

[AdamB]

Ya, ok, one more post *lol*

 

Jumbo,

 

You hit on one of the big issues of the sub-groups under the trans* umbrella which is a basic question with a complex answer - "What am I?" For the most part, in my experience, most would prefer to avoid labeling themselves or others, but at the same time it seems to be part of the human condition to place ourselves into groups. Not doing so tends to make us uncomfortable, and when discussing groups like trans* where individuals often already feel a lack of belonging, that uncomfortable feeling can be acute.

 

The problem is that, with research being limited compared to other areas of sexuality, and a lot of that research being aimed at one of the subgroups (transsexual), it causes the other sub-groups to try and find their own labels, whether it is bi-gender, dual-gender, pan-gender, gender-queer, and so forth. And the differences between each subgroup can be a matter of degrees, and open to interpretation with the groups themselves, with different meanings applied to a single label based upon what website you read, individual you talk to, or discussion you take part in (for example: bi-gender, dual-gender, and gender-fluid).

 

Relating it back to the original topic, this...flux within the trans* sub-groups, which in turn causes confusion among those not within this community, is part of what causes confusion in regards to how people exhibit their gender identity. It also accounts for the view that trans* equals homosexual

 

The little girl probably is not trans*-anything, at least based on the information available. "Tomboys" who do not have gender id issues have always been around  without the girl in question ever feeling like anything less than a girl - they just like "masculine" clothing  and activities. That is why I have a small issue in the APA definition that you posted - they appeared to focus on the gender expression, not what is leading to that expression which is what would be the difference between a "tomboy" and a transgender.  

 

 

General response:

 

As far as the school, near as I can tell, the issue was not that they thought the girl was gay, but that she was not conforming to their views on "proper" gender roles/expression that they interpret from the Bible. I personally loved a response that I saw on another website (paraphrasing):

 

"So, they are claiming that a girl in jeans with short hair violates the teachings of a guy with long hair running around in a dress."  

[Riggo-toni]

I am admiring the way this "school" is admitting that The Gay is something that people can catch from a pair of sneakers, at age eight, though.

Seems to be a softening of the "it's a choice" line.

I knew guys could contract the gay disease at a young age from purple sneakers and baby carrots, and maybe choosing pretzel sticks over pretzel rolls, but I find the argument that girls could catch it from poor footwear somewhat dubious.

[Jumbo]

IMO, another excellent post, Adam. And as an ES member and ES fan, I am grateful to have posters like you and LSF (among so many others on various matters) that help broaden knowledge and perspective with (IMV) generally intelligent commentary and useful insight. Participation of this sort makes the tailgate that much better a forum IMO.

[LadySkinsFan]

I'm going to drop the transgender discussion here.  I only brought it up because it was one of the 3 criteria that the school used to separate students from the school.  As for your posts, AdamB, I don't feel attacked at all, a decent discussion.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Back to topic:

 

Some forms of Christianity just don't make sense to me.  I stopped believing in this religious stuff a long time ago, and my spirituality searches over the longs years since then haven't changed my mind.  How this school can treat a child this way, shunning her by kicking her out of the school is as unChristian-like as I have heard in a while.

 

Wonder what else they teach that is "proper" to them?

[velocet]

Intersex in the Age of Ethics (Ethics in Clinical Medicine Series) was and maybe remains a seminal work.

Here's a review from the Amazon page:

"From The New England Journal of Medicine

What is the relation among anatomy, sexual identity, and sexual practices? The authors of Intersex in the Age of Ethics argue that an ethical clinical response to intersexuality (i.e., the intermingling, in varying degrees, of male and female sex characteristics) will be possible only when this question can be answered on the basis of well-documented, long-term case studies of the lives of intersexual persons. To date, this information has not been collected and clinical practice is based on ill-founded assumptions.

This book reflects the search for an interim solution. It combines reviews of changing medical responses to intersexual persons with first-person accounts by intersexual people and their families. The 21 chapters develop a convincing case for the position that the relations among anatomy, sexual identity, and sexual practices are not rigidly fixed, but can vary in highly personal, unpredictable ways. The authors argue that, until better information becomes available, the least damaging course of action is to delay medical intervention until a person is in a position to make an informed decision about the options.

Social and medical attitudes toward people who do not conform to conventional categories of sex are influenced by our understanding of how anatomy influences social behavior. Until recently, the assumption in Western societies has been that anatomy determines sexual identity and, therefore, sexual preferences. In this view, there is a direct relation between a particular kind of body and both a particular sexual identity and a particular set of sexual practices. Sexual identity and practice follow from the body in a predictable and consistent manner. Given this assumption, it is hardly surprising that so much medical attention has been given to categorizing, defining, and reshaping intersexual bodies. The understanding is that once these unruly bodies have been made to conform, appropriate identities and practices will follow seamlessly.

In Victorian times, this shaping of the intersexual body was achieved by a kind of "conceptual surgery." The gonads were designated as the defining anatomical characteristic, and all other considerations were deemed irrelevant. If ovaries were present, the person was defined as female and would be expected to have only male sexual partners; if testes were present, the person was defined as male and would be expected to have only female sexual partners. By defining a sex for each ambiguous body, appropriate behavior was established for each person with such a body. The way in which such people experienced their bodies, identities, or sexual desires was not considered. Bodies mattered only to the extent that they were vehicles for ensuring that a person behaved in socially appropriate ways. As the range of clinical techniques expanded through the 20th century, the conceptual reduction of intersexual bodies was replaced by surgical reduction. The bodies of intersexual infants were carved to fit the social categories these children would be required to inhabit as adults. The birth of an intersexual baby became a "medical emergency," and the infant's ambiguous body was surgically "cured" to save the adult from social pathology.

As the first two parts of this book establish beyond doubt, the underlying assumption, that anatomy determines sexual identity and therefore practice, is not borne out in the life experiences of intersexual persons. Although we do not yet understand exactly how a person acquires a sexual identity or comes to desire specific types of sexual contact, it is clear that behavior cannot be predicted on the basis of an infant's gonadal, genital, or genetic makeup. As a result, surgical treatment of intersexual infants does not facilitate the unproblematic acquisition of a stable sexual identity, even though it is undertaken almost solely for this purpose. On the contrary, early surgery sometimes creates new problems: loss of sexual feeling, loss of fertility, lifelong urinary pain and dysfunction, and the social difficulties that follow from these conditions. The authors point out that being intersexual is a lifelong experience, irrespective of whether a person undergoes "corrective" surgery. Medical interventions, whether surgical or hormonal, do not "cure" a person of an intersexual condition. Rather, such interventions create further uncertainty with respect to the already ambiguous intersexual body, often compounding rather than reducing distress and confusion.

Although this book is full of diverse voices and styles of writing, it is a tightly focused collection with a consistent point of view. Each of the 21 chapters contributes to the development of the overall argument, and each chapter also has its own story to tell. These stories are variously academic and personal, powerful and unassuming, moving and disturbing, sad and joyful. However, all contributions are informative and compelling. No reader will put down this book unchanged.

Yvonne Marshall, Ph.D.

Copyright © 2000 Massachusetts Medical Society. All rights reserved. The New England Journal of Medicine is a registered trademark of the MMS."

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LadySkinsFan wrote about the male gaze, to which grego replied:

i never really understand this when i hear it. couldnt a woman just choose to dress in a way that is appealing to a man just because she wants to attract a man? i dont see where it has to be about being submissive. (actually, in some cultures, women are clearly submissive and dress in a way where you literally cant see anything- no even their eyes at time- exactly so other men arent attracted to them, but, i digress....)

 

dont men dress in a way that would be desirable to a woman? there are men who want to please their woman. i know i do, but i dont correlate that to being submissive. 

 

on a related note, have you ever seen howard sterns interview with mayim bialek? she says the same thing- doesnt shave her armpits or legs (but shes hetero). i dont really get it.

The closest analogy I can conjure up for fellas like us is... sorta... any time you've gotten a certain stare from some other dude who clearly looks to throw down? Well, as guys, you know, our reaction might go like "and you'll die trying %*%#@$%".... it's about apprehending the nonverbal message about domination and control. WE see a very similar look from our male contemporaries but more in a territorial context whereas the ladies get a sign that they are the territory.

LSF,

If you're going to go about the forum holding forth on matters feminist, I'm all in in support. Unless you think I'm in the way, then I'll pipe down.

velocet

[AdamB]

Ok, I really need to go to bed...damn ES is addicting...

 

http://www.wdbj7.com/blob/view/-/25165848/data/3/-/i726yd/-/TCS-letter-to-Doris-Thompson.pdf

 

Apparently the school has determined that the girl was not acting in accordance to her God-ordained gender identity, and God made her a female, as well as confusing the other students. Also, according to the letter to the grandparents, the girl is in counseling for gender ID issues.

 

/gag

 

As far as what kind of school it is:

 

- The high school run by the same group offers a scholarship to Liberty University

 

- The school is directing questions to Liberty Counsel, a group run by Mat Staver, a dean at Liberty U's Law School. Staver's greatest hits include claiming Obama hates Christianity because he let a Hindu speak at the National Prayer Breakfast, calling for Obama to be impeached because state level AGs are not defending gay marriage bans, that gays are trying to convert children, comparing gays to terrorists, and that passing ENDA will cause a revolution against the government.   

[Zguy28]

I’m having a hard time thinking of anything more hypocritical than the school sending this child’s guardians a letter stating that the school’s “biblical role is to work in conjunction with the home to mold students to be Christlike.”  Then they go on to judge the folks that are raising her in an atmosphere that is “counter to or in opposition to the biblical lifestyle that the school teaches.” 

 

Reading the tone and exact wording of the letter leads one to believe the writer doesn’t know what Christ taught at all. 

They call them folks "accidental Pharisees".

[LadySkinsFan]

"Greatest hits"  That was too funny, AdamB!

[grego]

The closest analogy I can conjure up for fellas like us is... sorta... any time you've gotten a certain stare from some other dude who clearly looks to throw down? Well, as guys, you know, our reaction might go like "and you'll die trying %*%#@$%".... it's about apprehending the nonverbal message about domination and control. WE see a very similar look from our male contemporaries but more in a territorial context whereas the ladies get a sign that they are the territory.

LSF,

If you're going to go about the forum holding forth on matters feminist, I'm all in in support. Unless you think I'm in the way, then I'll pipe down.

velocet

 

 

good to see you, vel.