Carroll or Schneider - What lessons should the Skins take from yesterday.

[darrelgreenie]

^^But that is always the plan be competetive with players on their first contracts before you have to pay them all a boat load.

Then pick and choose which players are important enough to re-sign then allow the players that are too expensive to re-sign to walk based on the depth at the position built up through the draft.

[pjfootballer]

Replace Haslett, now!

Your schtick in every thread is getting old.  I suggest you contribute to the topics more and a little less with the drive by negativity.

[darrelgreenie]

4: You really only need one "strength" of the D in terms of talent. Seattle has a crazy secondary but the rest of their D is only above average. And they really don't have to outscheme guys, they just need to be well coached and fundamentally sound.

agreed with most of your post but I the Hawks have a beastly front 4 and pass rush and have spent money to aquire it.

There secondary imho get a lot credit that belongs to scheme and Sherman.

Chancellor is basically Bernard Pollard style SS and Maxwell was a back-up CB.

Their secondary is helped out by great pass rush and Sherman's ability to play his man without help which allows Earl to help the other CB and for Kam C to play in the middle.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

 Like I said in my post, I don't think we have figured that out as of yet (obviously), but I'd like to see us win a SB with whatever way we figure it out.

 

I think you are on to something. We need people who can find good players. I don't think the Seahawks set out to find low-round/undrafted guys and turn them into the most dominant secondary in recent memory. What they did was find talent where they could and assemble the team accordingly. 

 

They play to the strengths of their personnel which is what we have to hope eventually occurs here...once we acquire that strong personnel and realize how to use it.

[RonArtest15]

The interesting thing in Seattle is what is going to happen when it is time to pay these dudes. I'm sure they will lock up Wilson. I'm sure they will lock up Sherman. But they aren't going to be able to pay market price for all their young stars.

 

I don't think it will be an issue with the way they draft. 

 

They are building something VERY nice out there in the Pacific NW. 

 

Watching the Seahawks yesterday really made me realize just how far away the Skins are from being on that level of compete/talent. 

[War Paint]

Let's build out own legacy, the Redskin way.

I understand what you're saying, but it is a copycat league.  Lots of teams this year added some read option to their offense because of it's success last season.  We don't want to follow exact footsteps of other teams, because certain things teams do may work better for them than it would for another team.  That said, there is nothing wrong with looking at a team's success, then adding some of those things to your own team.  Haslett could look at Seattle and say "hey, instead of trying to avoid being penalized, I'm just going to let my guys play physical all game and not worry about getting flagged.  We are going to focus on solid tackling, swarming to the ball, and being physical with WRs all game. If we get an occasional PI call against us, so be it. I need to add some more players with more speed, but we are going to adopt a more physical and aggressive mentality."

[Enforcer_FFX]

Everyone is noting Seattle’s drafting – which they OBVIOUSLY should.  They have done a great job.  I think people sleep on their free agent game too.  It’s a balance, they don’t soley rely on starters via draft, many come via FA/trade (I’m sure there are others):

 

-Avril, Bennett, Giacomini (RT), Robinson (FB), Miller, Rice (even though he got hurt) – free agents

-Lynch, Harvin – their 2 most expolsive offensive players acquired via trade

 

And when you hit enough on both sides, NOBODY remembers your misses, like Curry - the 1st Rd LB bust, or signing Matt Flynn...Hopefully, with the Skins new structure, we can now improve player acquisition.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't think it will be an issue with the way they draft. 

 

 

Every team eventually has a bad draft.

 

Look at the Steelers' drafts in 2008 and 2009. That explains why the Steelers have missed the playoffs the last two years.

[pjfootballer]

I understand what you're saying, but it is a copycat league.  Lots of teams this year added some read option to their offense because of it's success last season.  We don't want to follow exact footsteps of other teams, because certain things teams do may work better for them than it would for another team.  That said, there is nothing wrong with looking at a team's success, then adding some of those things to your own team.  Haslett could look at Seattle and say "hey, instead of trying to avoid being penalized, I'm just going to let my guys play physical all game and not worry about getting flagged.  We are going to focus on solid tackling, swarming to the ball, and being physical with WRs all game. If we get an occasional PI call against us, so be it. I need to add some more players with more speed, but we are going to adopt a more physical and aggressive mentality."

Sure, I can agree with taking certain things and using them.  I agree it's a copycat league, but when talking about running your organization and building a team, I think you need to do it your own way.  And yes, I would love for Haslett to make the defense as aggressive as Seattles'.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I don't think it will be an issue with the way they draft. 

 

They are building something VERY nice out there in the Pacific NW. 

 

Watching the Seahawks yesterday really made me realize just how far away the Skins are from being on that level of compete/talent. 

 

Probably, but I thought that the Saints would be NFC champs many times by now when they first knocked on the door in 2006. I thought the same thing about the Packers a few years ago. 

 

This is a talent-driven league. And even though the Seahawks have done a great job assembling talent on the 2013 team, who knows how things will work out down the road. Maybe they'll fail in backfilling some of their key players as they leave. Maybe they'll be just as good but OCs will counter their defense and figure out ways to make plays, gain yards, and put up enough points to re-direct the pressure back to their pedestrian offense?

 

With a few exceptions (usually aging teams that make a final run), we always assume that the current Super Bowl champion is the odds-on favorite to win it all again several times over the next few years. Rarely does that happen. The Seahawks are perfectly positioned to contend for another decade, but the Patriots have been in that position since their last title a decade ago. They've been in the hunt almost every year, but haven't added another Lombardi yet. 

 

We'll see. 

[JSSkinz]

Lesson learned is be a innovator and stop trying to duplicate what others do.  Seattle went against conventional NFL wisdom by going big in the secondary and smaller on the D line and now they have a Superbowl.

[gibbsfan2018]

Slet's be clear...the Seattle GM was the Skins' VP of player personnel, Snyder lets him walk and keeps...Vinny Cerrato!

Reading this just made me sick!  Thanks for adding salt to the wound.

[DogofWar1]

Every team eventually has a bad draft.

 

Look at the Steelers' drafts in 2008 and 2009. That explains why the Steelers have missed the playoffs the last two years.

 

^^This, plus the other thing is that there are some positions that are must re-sign positions, like QB.  It's one thing to cycle good caliber starters through your system via the draft by having an amazing scouting crew, but it is an entirely different thing to try that same thing with a QB.  So no matter how you slice it, that's 15M+ that's gone when Wilson gets his next deal.

 

And finding a quality starter once every 4 years is very different from finding a Richard Sherman or Earl Thomas once every 4 years.  A first rounder with his head on straight can be a quality starter, but it takes someone special to be a Sherman.  Does a quality starting corner make that tip in the NFC Championship?  Probably not.  You needed Sherman for that.

 

And again, as you said, bad drafts will happen.  If you're trying to constantly cycle out rookie deals, one bad draft will put a huge dent in that cycle, and two bad drafts will probably kill it.

[DC9]

Love them or hate them, you have to respect the ass whooping they just put on the most prolific offense in the history of the NFL.

 

We're talking Peyton Manning and friends barely saw the ball and didn't even get a first down until five minutes into the second quarter.

 

We'd be foolish no to try and learn something from this group.

 

Give the devil his due, fellas.

[War Paint]

To me, the big lesson that stands out from the Seahawks is how much they've gone against the superstar focus of so many other teams.  The Broncos probably fielded more future HOF players last night, but Seattle's talent was much more evenly spread out.  No part of that team really had to carry any other part of it.  This is why I'm beginning to wonder if the trade for RG3 wasn't a huge mistake.  RG3 will hopefully become a franchise QB, but will the picks given up prevent this team from putting other talent around him? 

Well, if you look at Seattle's starting defense and when they were drafted, they only have a few players that were drafted in the 1st and 2nd round.  In their secondary, which is considered their main strength, Sherman was drafted in the 5th rd, Chancellor/5th rd, Thomas/1st rd, Maxwell/6th rd.  Maxwell replaced Browner. Browner was undrafted.

 

Now look at their starting LB core.  Wagner/2nd rd, Irvin/1st rd, Smith/7th rd.

 

And finally, the starting D-line.  Bryant/4th rd, McDaniel/undrafted, MeBane/3rd round, Clemons/undrafted (Clemons made his debut with us back in 2004.

 

It's all about being coached up and the philosophy they bought into.  We have talent already on our roster.  They aren't being coached up and taught the right philosophy IMO.  I just hope Haslett does something different that will change that.

[Larry]

The funny thing about the Seattle example is that they are doing it without high picks.  As pointed out elsewhere, there are only 2 first round picks on that defense.  Sherman was a 5th round pick.  So was Cam Chancellor.  The MVP of the game, Malcolm Smith, was a 7th round pick.  So far, we aren't developing many of those players.

 

Well, we DO have Morris. 

 

(But, yeah, I do get your point.) 

Lesson 1: Timing/rhythm offenses can't really beat elite defenses in the playoffs. If I'm Jay Gruden, I design an offense that fully incorporates RGIII's playmaking ability both as a runner and passer. When things go bad, he needs the opportunity to make the kind of plays that he made at Baylor with both his arm and legs.

I think I read that last night, Peyton set a Super Bowl record for most passes completed.

And was utterly humiliated.

(And it wasn't JUST because of the 2 INTs.)

^^But that is always the plan be competetive with players on their first contracts before you have to pay them all a boat load.

Insert comment about Shannahan and RBs.

Get 'em in the draft, use the heck out of 'em while they're still getting minimum wage, then toss 'em aside and bring in another one.

It can be a heck of a system. IF you can pull it off.

[roanoker]

Dont think our team learned anything they didnt already know. The Denver O looked confused and inept, missed assignments; ST - the run back for a TD reminded me of us.  The D was gashed - missed tackles, holes a truck could drive through, no containment.

[RonArtest15]

Well, if you look at Seattle's starting defense and when they were drafted, they only have a few players that were drafted in the 1st and 2nd round.  In their secondary, which is considered their main strength, Sherman was drafted in the 5th rd, Chancellor/5th rd, Thomas/1st rd, Maxwell/6th rd.  Maxwell replaced Browner. Browner was undrafted.

 

Now look at their starting LB core.  Wagner/2nd rd, Irvin/1st rd, Smith/7th rd.

 

And finally, the starting D-line.  Bryant/4th rd, McDaniel/undrafted, MeBane/3rd round, Clemons/undrafted (Clemons made his debut with us back in 2004.

 

It's all about being coached up and the philosophy they bought into.  We have talent already on our roster.  They aren't being coached up and taught the right philosophy IMO.  I just hope Haslett does something different that will change that.

 

I liked everything you said right up until you got to the last two lines.  I don't think we have the talent on the roster (as of now).  Coaching is another issue.  Things need to DRASTICALLY change for us to even be mentioned amongst the likes of Seattle/SF.  Not for nothing, but the Seahawks defense could be considered the best all-time.  You swap out their defense with our guys, there isn't a chance in hell that they produce similar results. 

[NoVaSkins21]

Slet's be clear...the Seattle GM was the Skins' VP of player personnel, Snyder lets him walk and keeps...Vinny Cerrato!

 

That is just the ultimate SMH decision.  I think yesterday was about shrewd drafting by Schneider by finding guys in the lower rounds that fit the pieces of the puzzle for their defense and then getting a guy like Wilson in the 3rd round who's now a franchise QB.  Guys like Carroll and Schneider have also been aided by the fact that there's no interference from an owner like Paul Allen.  Definitely a lot of lessons from yesterday that need to be learned by this team and it's going to take some time.

[TheLongshot]

That is just the ultimate SMH decision.

 

People seem to miss the context.  Schneider was part of Marty's staff.  The owner isn't going to keep a guy who was hired by the guy he just fired, particularly since the firing was mostly on personnel matters.  You may have a problem with who he did hire, but the owner is always going to go with his guy rather than someone else's.

 

As they say, hindsight is 20/20.

[War Paint]

I liked everything you said right up until you got to the last two lines.  I don't think we have the talent on the roster (as of now).  Coaching is another issue.  Things need to DRASTICALLY change for us to even be mentioned amongst the likes of Seattle/SF.  Not for nothing, but the Seahawks defense could be considered the best all-time.  You swap out their defense with our guys, there isn't a chance in hell that they produce similar results. 

I'm not saying we don't need to add to the roster, I'm simply saying we do have talent on our roster already.  I think the main change that needs to happen is with coaching and the philosophy for defense.  Poor tackling IMO is a coaching issue.  If a player can't tackle because they are injured, then that's a different story.  The lack of attitude on defense starts with the coaching.  Again, I'm not saying our roster is set already. 

 

I disagree with your last line.  I think several of our players would thrive with Seattle.  They have a system in place that works, a system where the players totally bought in.  They lose Brandon Browner.  They plug in a 6th round pick Byron Maxwell and don't miss a beat. The only other explanation for their success is if their defense is abusing PEDs, which isn't out of the realm of possibility.

 

If D Hall and Amerson were with Seattle, they wouldn't play with 10 yard cushions all the time like they do here.  They would be getting their hands on WRs all game, without worrying about penalties.  

[Riggo#44]

As they say, hindsight is 20/20.

 

Yes. And almost all of our decision, in hindsight, turn out to be terrible...

[Larry]

As they say, hindsight is 20/20.

Yes. And almost all of our decision, in hindsight, turn out to be terrible...

Some times, hindsight is 3-13.

[Chachie]

Honestly, folks?

 

This team needs so many pieces just to be considered a contender that it's virtually a lost cause. By the time we fill the spots we need with reliable players, the currently reliable spots will be on their way out. 

 

The damage done to this roster during Danny/Vinny's time might be downright unfixable. It's the most shallow roster in the league, bar none. O-line, d-line, d secondary. Not a single player in these 3 sections is worth their money except Trent. Not repairable in the next 2-3 seasons.

[TheLongshot]

If D Hall and Amerson were with Seattle, they wouldn't play with 10 yard cushions all the time like they do here.  They would be getting their hands on WRs all game, without worrying about penalties.  

 

Actually, D Hall probably would be run out of town, like he was with the Raiders, because they tried to fit a square peg in a round hole.

 

Hall's game is about playing off the receiver and reading the QB.  It always has been.  If you are asking him to be physical with receivers all the time, you are doing it wrong.