Carroll or Schneider - What lessons should the Skins take from yesterday.

[Larry]

Honestly, folks?

This team needs so many pieces just to be considered a contender that it's virtually a lost cause. By the time we fill the spots we need with reliable players, the currently reliable spots will be on their way out.

We're doomed.

- C3PO.

[TheLongshot]

Honestly, folks?

 

This team needs so many pieces just to be considered a contender that it's virtually a lost cause. By the time we fill the spots we need with reliable players, the currently reliable spots will be on their way out. 

 

The damage done to this roster during Danny/Vinny's time might be downright unfixable. It's the most shallow roster in the league, bar none. O-line, d-line, d secondary. Not a single player in these 3 sections is worth their money except Trent. Not repairable in the next 2-3 seasons.

 

After 4 years, anything Vinny has done is long gone.  Blame Shanahan for this mess.

 

As for turnarounds, this roster isn't totally bereft of talent, and we have seen that competitive teams can be made in a season or two.  Hell, we've seen it happen here with Gibbs.  Yeah, I don't expect greatness next season, but in 3-4 years?  Certainly.

[RhodeIsland Ave]

The funny thing about the Seattle example is that they are doing it without high picks.  As pointed out elsewhere, there are only 2 first round picks on that defense.  Sherman was a 5th round pick.  So was Cam Chancellor.  The MVP of the game, Malcolm Smith, was a 7th round pick.  So far, we aren't developing many of those players.

 

This ^^. Above all else, it comes down to talent evaluation. 

[skinsmania123]

I don't think it will be an issue with the way they draft. 

 

They are building something VERY nice out there in the Pacific NW. 

 

Watching the Seahawks yesterday really made me realize just how far away the Skins are from being on that level of compete/talent. 

You know I don't agree with this comment at all.  I am sorry but was I dreaming last year in the first round against the now almighty Seahawks when RG3 scored two quick TD's on the Skins first two possessions of the game?  But then he got hurt.  And then he struggled.  It it still took the Hawks until the 3rd quarter to score after RG3 crumbled to the turf with his ACL and LCL gone.   RG3 when he was probably only 90% physically healthy in that game made them look fairly average.  The Seahawks were lucky in that game.  And if I were Trent I would have wanted to deck Sherman after that game too.  If we get a mentally and physically fit RG3 - and I mean 100%m mentally and I will take 95% physically healthy then he could surely do that to them again.  I know this because I saw that. 

[War Paint]

Actually, D Hall probably would be run out of town, like he was with the Raiders, because they tried to fit a square peg in a round hole.

 

Hall's game is about playing off the receiver and reading the QB.  It always has been.  If you are asking him to be physical with receivers all the time, you are doing it wrong.

I don't know about that.  It appears to me that our coaching staff has been doing it wrong.  I hate 10 yard cushions.

[TheLongshot]

This ^^. Above all else, it comes down to talent evaluation. 

 

It is probably as much coaching as talent evaluation, if not more so.  You don't get as many late round picks to perform if you can't coach them up.  Evaluation gets you the guys who fit your system.  Coaching helps them excel in the system.

[imissbobbyb]

Remember that the 2013 redskins defense handled the broncos for a half as well. The differences was the redskins offense had no drives and eventually their ineptitude tired our defense. The main lessons I would take from yesterday is you a build a team mostly through the draft and you find a few key pieces in free agency (in seattle case their FA were michael bennett. cliff avril, and percy harvin was a trade for and then sign).

 

I personally would use our cap money on quality o lineman that are on the market to protect rg3 and draft ILB CB S WR.

[SkinsHokieFan]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/02/03/when-john-schneider-was-with-the-redskins/

 

 

When John Schneider was with the Redskins

John Schneider helping the Seahawks win a Super Bowl and posing shirtless in a WWE title belt reminded me: John Schneider used to be a Redskins guy. For one year. He replaced Vinny Cerrato — whom Marty Schottenheimer fired — and was, in turn, replaced by Vinny Cerrato.

A timeline:

May 25, 2001, Washington Post: [Marty] Schottenheimer is scheduled to interview Seattle Seahawks director of player personnel John Schneider today for the personnel director job.

May 26, 2001, Washington Post: Marty Schottenheimer interviewed Seattle Seahawks director of player personnel John Schneider for the Redskins’ personnel director job yesterday. Schneider worked with Schottenheimer in Kansas City and could challenge Ken Herock as the favorite for the job if he is willing to make what amounts to a lateral move. Schottenheimer left open the possibility of interviewing more candidates next week

 

.

[Bubble Screen]

It is probably as much coaching as talent evaluation, if not more so. You don't get as many late round picks to perform if you can't coach them up. Evaluation gets you the guys who fit your system. Coaching helps them excel in the system.

It's mainly about talent evaluation. This is Carroll's 3rd NFL job. He's proven at both the college and NFL level that he can win with talent.

[redskins55]

Truth is you could see plain as day what Pete Carroll was doing and Shanahan had the opportunity to do the same thing because they came in at the same time.

 

Shanny takes Trent Williams and Carroll takes Russell Okung

 

Shanny takes Ryan Kerrigan and Carroll takes Bruce Irving

 

Both had a chance to get Marshawn Lynch but the Redskins passed

 

Shanny trades for McNabb and Carroll trades for Flynn

 

They both draft talented mobile QBs. And Shanny turns his mobile QB into a running QB, while Carroll lets his QB remain mobile!

 

But the number one difference between these two is not their football prowess, its their approaches. They both were executive vice presidents , but Shanahan had to be in control mentally. He was a dictator instead of trying to get the best out of his players like Carrol. You never wouldve known that Pete was Exec VP too because he acts like a player. That was the difference.

[CRobi21]

I think we need a lot of good football players who are good at playing football.

 

You may be on to something here, Lkb.

 

Though may be asking a bit too much, dont ya think?

[Fred Jones]

Talent acquisition, plain and simple.  Not the coaches we brought in or kept will define the future.

 

And, I said this the day Shanny got fired.  Shanny's biggest issue was he failed as a GM.

[darrelgreenie]

...But the number one difference between these two is not their football prowess, its their approaches....

Pete is a defensive guru that taught his coordinators to build a defense to his standards. Pete also knows how to relate to and motivate his players.

Mike is a guru on offense that wasn't directly involved in the offense. Our DC was not and has never been considered a guru on defense and Mike was meddling on defense.

[Riggo-toni]

The problem with taking many lessons from Seattle is that frankly, their team is an aberration.

 

How often do teams in the modern NFL will have a franchise QB on a deal that only costs them 500K a year, and many other high level offensive and defensive starters who are all on rookie deals, all at the same time?

 

I mean, Sherman, arguably the best corner in the game, is on a 2.2M deal.  Not 2.2M per year deal, but a 2.2M deal TOTAL!

 

Walter Thurmond, rookie deal.  Earl Thomas, one of the best safeties in the league this year, in a on 5M/Y deal, while his value is probably 3M more than that.  Brandon Browner was on a 1Y/750K deal before getting kicked out.  Bobby Wagner, Bruce Irvin, and Malcolm Smith (SB MVP) are all on rookie deals.

You're actually reinforcing the point of my original post, so thank you.

Having a top notch GM is more important than even a brilliant coach, despite the fact that coaches get all the public attention.  This has been unquestionably the most ignored facet of our franchise, and 14 years on in Snyderville, and that still has not changed.  Snyder still alternates between hiring unproven offensive coordinators/position coaches and saddling them with failed GMs and making a name hire retread and handing over full control over personnel.

[Smurf85]

I learned illegal substances wins championships. No wonder young athletes go down that road.

You can hate all you want there super bowl champs. I personally could careless about what a player does to his own body as long as were winning.

You act like there the only team that does things like this. Lets not forget about Jenkins and Rob Jackson and stop trying to play the youth card.

Its not like the NFL is promoting PEDs. Its fans like you that bring them up, because you have something against the Seahawks.

[Darth Tater]

A defense that tackles is a good defense.  Many of the plays that Denver ran only got a couple of yards because Seattle actually took the guy to the ground when they laid hands on him.  You now have so many short pass plays that rely on the receiver to break the first tackle.  Another thing, stay disciplined and know your keys.  If you do that, you'll play much faster than you are.  When you've got an offense that can make plays, you will make plays (didn't really learn that from the game but more because the other side may panic).

[Thekyle1591]

Well put.

The key is to build primarily thru the draft. Don't spend on FAs unless it's to get that one guy to get over the hump(like Harvin)or if it's a really good value buy.

Ideally your core players, your best players, will all be guys you drafted and developed.

Harvins one play doesn't make him worth 67 million.

[Thekyle1591]

Truth is you could see plain as day what Pete Carroll was doing and Shanahan had the opportunity to do the same thing because they came in at the same time.

Shanny takes Trent Williams and Carroll takes Russell Okung

Shanny takes Ryan Kerrigan and Carroll takes Bruce Irving

Both had a chance to get Marshawn Lynch but the Redskins passed

Shanny trades for McNabb and Carroll trades for Flynn

They both draft talented mobile QBs. And Shanny turns his mobile QB into a running QB, while Carroll lets his QB remain mobile!

But the number one difference between these two is not their football prowess, its their approaches. They both were executive vice presidents , but Shanahan had to be in control mentally. He was a dictator instead of trying to get the best out of his players like Carrol. You never wouldve known that Pete was Exec VP too because he acts like a player. That was the difference.

Oh and the Seahawks acquired an all pro safety and numerous starters in rounds 4-7. That too.

[nelsonal]

I believe the Seahawks signed Flynn as a free agent and didn't trade for him or his rights.  The Packers were awarded a 5th round compensatory selection. 

[nfl guru]

Haslett gives me no hope.  Name one defensive player he has groomed. Just 1...

[moondog]

Honestly I think it shows that you cannot try to be someone else. We cannot simply try to emulate or follow everything the Seahawks have done thinking we will gain similar success. Pete Carroll has stayed true to himself - I don't particularly like him - but he has stuck to what he believes works and it has. Along with that they have picked up some serious gems throughout the draft and FA over the past several years. Yes a big part of that is a good scouting department and draft room but it is not a science people - some of it is just plain luck that players turn out that well. 

 

I'm not saying there aren't takeaways from any successful franchise or person that you should mesh into your own. There certainly are. But I'm also saying that for any coach or franchise to be successful they have to have leadership from the owner to the coaches and on down the players that truly believe in the system and buy into it. When you have 53 players and coaches and an entire franchise all buying in to each other and maintaining an extreme focus on it, you tend to be very successful. 

 

Gibbs was an expert at leading a group of men. Whatever he said was the truth and it was easy for everyone to fall in line. A huge part of our problem last year was all the different directions and distractions that our team was going in. It was easy to see (although not extremely predictable, perhaps due to rose colored glasses) how our team was not all focused on one thing last year. It ultimately unraveled much more than expected though. No one bought in to special teams, our #1 most important player did not buy in to the offense and it seems our entire defense was a little confused at who the boss was (yes there were also deficiencies in talent). 

 

It is all about getting a very large group of men to become extremely focused on one goal and to completely buy in to the structure set up by leadership of how to get there. That's how a lesser talented team like the 2012 Redskins wins 7 straight and probably even more if RGIII didn't get hurt. It takes a lot of talent too but it's amazing how much chemistry and buy in can overcome a more talented group of people. 

[Newera]

Seattle defensively is all about speed.  Denver expects you to bliz peyton every now and then.  Seattle never blitzed.  They just went mano mano on them.  They also zoned the rubs Denver likes to run.  And they hit the hell out of the receivers.  They made their presence known early to Denver.  "You've never seen this type of defensive speed and intensity."  

 

They didn't know what hit them.  I'v never seen anything like it sense the 85 Bears. 

 

It was fascinating watching that.

[Bobbyst21]

Good thing we have Haslett. Still get to see our QB on subway commercials. Isn't Wilson jealous of Roberts attention now? I hope Gruden brings a big bag of smelling salts and wakes this team the @$ ****. But the GM situation and Haslett still being hired leaves me with much much MUCH doubt.

[Skinsfan_13]

Honestly, folks?

 

This team needs so many pieces just to be considered a contender that it's virtually a lost cause. By the time we fill the spots we need with reliable players, the currently reliable spots will be on their way out. 

 

The damage done to this roster during Danny/Vinny's time might be downright unfixable. It's the most shallow roster in the league, bar none. O-line, d-line, d secondary. Not a single player in these 3 sections is worth their money except Trent. Not repairable in the next 2-3 seasons.

Vinny is garbage but it's time to stop blaming him. These are Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen's players.

[Riggo#44]

Truth is you could see plain as day what Pete Carroll was doing and Shanahan had the opportunity to do the same thing because they came in at the same time.

 

Shanny takes Trent Williams and Carroll takes Russell Okung

 

Shanny takes Ryan Kerrigan and Carroll takes Bruce Irving

 

Both had a chance to get Marshawn Lynch but the Redskins passed

 

Shanny trades for McNabb and Carroll trades for Flynn

 

They both draft talented mobile QBs. And Shanny turns his mobile QB into a running QB, while Carroll lets his QB remain mobile!

 

But the number one difference between these two is not their football prowess, its their approaches. They both were executive vice presidents , but Shanahan had to be in control mentally. He was a dictator instead of trying to get the best out of his players like Carrol. You never wouldve known that Pete was Exec VP too because he acts like a player. That was the difference.

 

The thing is, I would still take Williams over Okung; Kerrigan over Irvin; and pass on Lynch for Morris. Both probably regret bringing in their QBs--but we gave up picks which hurt.

 

WHere we differ is, while we were drafting Dejon Gomes, while they were drafting Kam Chancellor, we didn't draft anyone. Now, there is a tremendous amount of luck in finding players THAT good THAT late--and some great coaching and teaching. That is the difference--in the late rounds the Seahawks struck gold, we dug up garbage.