ESPN980 Cooley: Mike Shanahan called plays on defense sometimes and hamstrung Haslett

[KDawg]

Ready for a shocker? I'm all for Haslett coaching our LBs. He has a WEALTH of knowledge.

[MrJL]

My goodness.  This board thinks Shanny was the devil himself.  Maybe Mike tried to call a few plays here and there because Haslett wasn't doing a good enough job himself.  It might take a couple years before you realize Mike left this team in better shape then we give him credit for.

 

Shanny is an offensive coach.  If Haslett wasn't doing his job well enough he should have been replaced.

[NewCliche21]

I can't believe that anyone here is defending Haslett.  Like it just blows my mind.

[Birdlives]

Ready for a shocker? I'm all for Haslett coaching our LBs. He has a WEALTH of knowledge.

Wealth shmealth. The guy should have been replaced after the first off season of Shanahans regime, by the second at worst. It's perfectly understandable that new coaches can't get the best qualified assistants with the way the hiring rules are in the NFL (thanks Seattle), but there's no excuse for not making changes as new coaches become available. This off season there are quite a few really good options for DC who will likely want to hire their own assistants. While I don't argue these guys can hang around for now, I'll be particularly disappointed if they also aren't completely replaced. Firstly it doesn't show well on our new HC to keep around such incompetence no matter how well he likes them, and secondly it actually makes him look like he's in command if he can form his own staff with obviously better choices that are available. I would go look at Horton and Phillips to start. Both have been far more successful than Haslett and Morris.

[Tyron Biggums]

My goodness.  This board thinks Shanny was the devil himself.  Maybe Mike tried to call a few plays here and there because Haslett wasn't doing a good enough job himself.  It might take a couple years before you realize Mike left this team in better shape then we give him credit for.

Mike did more than try to call a few plays. He changed whole defensive game plans. Several posters RandyHolt,GHH, myself and others were posting early and often this past season about Shannys fingerprints being all over the defense. As far as i am concerned Shanny bedeviled the Redskins franchise with the false media leaks. I am finished talking about him. He is gone, and now it is time to support our new HC.

 

One thing you are right about Shanny did leave us in better shape than compared to his arrival. RG3 and Alfred Morris.

 

 

Hail

[KDawg]

Wealth shmealth. The guy should have been replaced after the first off season of Shanahans regime, by the second at worst. It's perfectly understandable that new coaches can't get the best qualified assistants with the way the hiring rules are in the NFL (thanks Seattle), but there's no excuse for not making changes as new coaches become available. This off season there are quite a few really good options for DC who will likely want to hire their own assistants. While I don't argue these guys can hang around for now, I'll be particularly disappointed if they also aren't completely replaced. Firstly it doesn't show well on our new HC to keep around such incompetence no matter how well he likes them, and secondly it actually makes him look like he's in command if he can form his own staff with obviously better choices that are available. I would go look at Horton and Phillips to start. Both have been far more successful than Haslett and Morris.

Hi, I'm KDawg. I've been one of the biggest naysayers to Haslett on this forum. I created a thread called, "The Haslett Files". In fact, I've gone as far as to say he never should have been hired. If the new DC wants to keep him, then I'm all for him being our LB coaches. He knows the game. Sorry. He does. I don't like the way he sets his defense up and calls plays, but the guy knows football. I don't give three ****s what the fan/media perception is if he's kept on. If the new DC wants him, and it's not forced on him, then I am 100% for him coaching our linebackers.

 

Furthermore, it appears you're arguing him being the DC. I didn't say anything about him being DC, so I'm not sure why you're using Horton or Phillips in response to me. It'll be tough to find a better LB coach than Haslett right now, for what it's worth.

[Tyron Biggums]

Does anyone else feel real "same old same old" about this whole Haslett situation? Can we just move on from this clown?

Apparently Hasslett has something to offer the team at this point. Maybe, as KDawg said he might be a good LB coach.?

[grego]

My goodness.  This board thinks Shanny was the devil himself.  Maybe Mike tried to call a few plays here and there because Haslett wasn't doing a good enough job himself.  It might take a couple years before you realize Mike left this team in better shape then we give him credit for.

 

 

well, i admit, i supported shanny and defended him for about 3 1/2 years. after the team fell apart (minnessota game), and the 'leaks' started, i did kinda come to the conclusion that he was the devil. or, at least, a weasel. 

 

as for the state he left the team in, at QB, i think we will be ok. (although some would counter that he got a QB, only to physiclaly and maybe even mentally destroy him)., besides that?

 

 

ummm.......we have lots of salary cap room this year?

 

thanks, mike. i guess.

[Voice_of_Reason]

well, i admit, i supported shanny and defended him for about 3 1/2 years. after the team fell apart (minnessota game), and the 'leaks' started, i did kinda come to the conclusion that he was the devil. or, at least, a weasel. 

 

as for the state he left the team in, at QB, i think we will be ok. (although some would counter that he got a QB, only to physiclaly and maybe even mentally destroy him)., besides that?

 

 

ummm.......we have lots of salary cap room this year?

 

thanks, mike. i guess.

I think that there's more than just the QB. There are definitely pieces to build around.  On offense, you have Robert, Morris, Trent Williams, Jordan Reed, and Pierre Garcon.  That's 6 of your 11 starters that, at the very least, you don't HAVE to replace.  

 

They'll need to switch up the OL, probably Chester and Polumbus have to be moved out, and they desperately need another playmaker on the outside to complement Garcon, and help everybody get open.  But if you look what Vinny put together at the end of 2009, I'll take what they have on offense now over that mess any day. 

 

Defensively, they don't have much, and it's pretty much a re-build.  I like Barry Cofield at DE, and Kerrigan at OLB, Jackson at OLB, and Reily isn't the worst ILB in the world.  They also have Amerson, who will be a good player.  

 

I'm not sure which is worse, the 2009 team which was old, slow, overpaid, and bad, or the 2013 team which was younger, mis-used, lacked talent, but generally cheaper.  Both are not very good.  

 

ST are horrendous, but I do believe in Kai.  But he's got to take some horse steroids in the off-season and learn to kick off.  

 

And fiscally, the team is MUCH better off.  Whether that's Bruce or Shanahan, who knows.  But at the very least, they do have room to maneuver.  They don't have a lot of expensive vets they need to cut, don't have a lot of dead cap room, and they have plenty of room to spend.  

[Box76]

Hasbeen has nothing to offer this team. The idea of demoting him and expecting the players to put their trust in him is beyond absurd. I have full confidence he will be shown the door once a true 3-4 DC is hired.

[NewCliche21]

Hasbeen has nothing to offer this team. The idea of demoting him and expecting the players to put their trust in him is beyond absurd. I have full confidence he will be shown the door once a true 3-4 DC is hired.

 

Why is that absurd?  Morris was demoted.  Williams was demoted.  Phillips was demoted.  Whisenhunt was demoted.

 

Players understand that, just like they play one role better than others (third down back for instance), coaches may be better suited for a specific role as opposed to being the chief.

 

There seem to be a lot of people on this board who know what players think and what's going on.  There seem to be a lot fewer who actually do.

[grego]

I think that there's more than just the QB. There are definitely pieces to build around.  On offense, you have Robert, Morris, Trent Williams, Jordan Reed, and Pierre Garcon.  That's 6 of your 11 starters that, at the very least, you don't HAVE to replace.  

 

 

 

i do agree that those are some good pieces. 

 

i didnt mention them primarily because i'm not sure we wouldnt have those pieces if we'd had another coach over the past 4 years, if that makes sense. they are good parts, but most teams have "some" good parts. 

 

when it comes to giving shanahan credit, i spent 3 1/2 years giving him credit. even when he blew it with mcnabb. or rolled out beck and grossman. even when he paid josh morgan like a starting WR. even when he drafted josh lereibus. or traded for jammal brown and gave him an extension. or kept haslett around. or hired keith burns. 

 

i'm hesitant to give him credit now unless its absolutely warranted. 

[MEANDWARF]

I'll say 3 things:

1) I'm starting to see Cooley as a "yes man" for the Snyder Machine.

2) A little confused, when I first heard of the hiring, the ESPN also stated that Morris and Haslett was staying on. Then during the Press Conference Gruden said he'll have control over coach hirings and roster decisions.

3) If Morris and Haslett do stay, give them 1 season to fix this mess. If the Dee does not show any improvement at the end of 2014 season, they're gone.

[justice98]

Calling him okay is very generous.  If you don't count Washington his average scoring defense still only ranks 20th overall.  And that's counting the pittsburgh years where he followed Lebeau and reaped the benefits of Lebeau's coaching (he ended up sending that defense down the drain).  If you take out Washington AND Pittsburgh (if you call that his best and worst) he goes down to an average rank of 28th.  He is not an okay DC, he is an awful one who shouldn't have a job.

 

Don't bring facts into this argument!  Screw the defense, we'll just have to average 50 points a game!

 

I think even in Pittsburgh, the defenses under his stewardship got worse than the ones that preceded him under LeBeau.  Now, granted Lebeau's good enough to be a HOF coordinator if there ever would be one, but still.  They were a top 3 defense the 4 years preceding Haslett.  Then Haslett took over Lebeau's defense, they got worse, and then Haz left and they got better again.  

 

But check this out, from 1993 to 2012, so a span of 20 years, the Steelers were only ranked lower than 10th in yards on defense two times.  '98 and '99, not coincedentally, two of the three years Haslett was DC.  Once he left after the '99 season, they were right back into the top 10.  So he has a hard time even maintaining the level of a great defense he'd been handed, I have no confidence he'll make a bad defense a good one. 

I'll say 3 things:

1) I'm starting to see Cooley as a "yes man" for the Snyder Machine.

2) A little confused, when I first heard of the hiring, the ESPN also stated that Morris and Haslett was staying on. Then during the Press Conference Gruden said he'll have control over coach hirings and roster decisions.

3) If Morris and Haslett do stay, give them 1 season to fix this mess. If the Dee does not show any improvement at the end of 2014 season, they're gone.

 

I get what you're saying, sometimes Cooley comes off as a little too close to the situation still.

[RandyHolt]

Based on how non-committal Gruden has sounded, I am now thinking Haslet will be relieved of DC duty.

 

He has an easy out, Jim is a 4-3 guy, and we want to run the 3-4.

[Garcon More Wine]

haslett isnt very good, despite  all the deflecting people wanna do.  his defenses in new orelans werent good either, and his defenses in st louis were mediocre at best to borderline dreadful.  this whole "his defense was 7th over the last how many games" is ridiculous, look at the points allowed.  yardage is meaningless if you get stops, turnovers, field goals.  drive the field 90 yards, just dont let them score 7. 

 

the points breakdown for the season:

 

Defense allowed: 427

Offense allowed: 16 (two pick 6s, and a safety)

Special teams allowed: 35 (KO return TD, 3 PR TDs, Blocked punt TD)

 

427 over 16 games comes to 26.7 points.  thats still terrible no matter what the circumstances.  the guy just has never had a lot of success, and i have no clue where the defense for the guy is coming from.  hes units arent creative, they force turnovers every now and then, but theyre very porous defenses.  and some of the mismatches that he had going on were awful and poorly schemed up.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

I doubt very seriously Haslett will be our DC next season. Sounds like Jay likes the 34 defense. Haslett is a 43 guy. It just doesn't add up. Maybe we can pull Todd Bowles back to DC.

 

 

HTTR

 

Just asking, but why is Haslett a 4-3 guy?  I keep seeing this repeated lately.  My understanding was that Haslett played in the 3-4 and coached with Dick LeBeau in Pittsburgh's 3-4 defense, and was brought here to install the 3-4 specifically because he knows it so well.

 

Is that not right?

[Stadium-Armory]

I must be the only one, but I personally don't buy the notion that Haslett has no idea what he's doing.

 

As a player, he was the NFL defensive rookie of the year in 1979 and an All-Pro in 1980. As a Head Coach, he was NFL Head Coach Of The Year in 2000. He was DC for the Steelers from 1997 - 1999 and his defenses ranked 11, 7 and 12th. 

 

His time with the Rams and Redskins did not yielded highly ranked defenses but I wonder if it has more to do with talent than his ability. I personally won't have a conniption fit if he stayed here in some capacity, even as DC. 

[RandyHolt]

Agreed Stadium-Armory. You cant pull a 16th rank D on a 3-13 dysfunctional team without having at least a clue. He literally got no support from special teams, and only 2nd half of games help from his offense.

 

People want change and that is fine. Good or not, I feel like our players on D deserve a new voice.

 

@ Tulane - as i understood it, the only time Haslett was in a 3-4 in any capacity was those years in Pittsburgh.

 

Maybe an '09 Tuskers fan can chime in what he ran there ( I won't hold my breath)

[grego]

 

 

427 over 16 games comes to 26.7 points.  thats still terrible no matter what the circumstances.  the guy just has never had a lot of success, and i have no clue where the defense for the guy is coming from.  hes units arent creative, they force turnovers every now and then, but theyre very porous defenses.  and some of the mismatches that he had going on were awful and poorly schemed up.

 

 

i did the math on the D a month or two ago and looked at opponents played. the D gave up like 3 points per game more than our opponents, on average, scored. 

 

that is not to say the D wasnt bad- it was.

 

given the number of opponents with very high scoring offenses, it wasnt as bad as it initially looks. 

 

conversely, our offense wasnt able to score points vs some of the worst defenses in the league, but most people will tell you our offense was fine, including mike shanahan.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

22 WAS 4.3% 17 0.1% 17 12.7% 22 -5.4% 17 9.6% 15.8% 2.3% 6.4% 21 5.4% 2

From http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

 

I think the 17, which is the weighted Defensive efficiency statistic, is about right.  The defense was playing slightly below average at the end of the year.  Not the worst in the league at all, but not anything great.  

[Garcon More Wine]

i did the math on the D a month or two ago and looked at opponents played. the D gave up like 3 points per game more than that opponents, on average, scored. 

 

that is not to say the D wasnt bad- it was.

 

given the number of opponents with very high scoring offenses, it wasnt as bad as it initially looks. 

 

conversely, our offense wasnt able to score points vs some of the worst defenses in the league, but most people will tell you our offense was fine, including mike shanahan.

 

they were high scoring because they got to play us haha.  our team in general averaged 21 points per game, you gotta average 25+ in this league to remain relevant.  it was a team failure for sure, but this defense sucks and has sucked.

 

whats even weirder is what has haslett shown to make anyone say "he needs more time"?  i dont think he deserves anything.

[Rskins06]

First, let me start by stating I am not a Huge JH fan, that being said, I am fairly certain our defense outscored our offense in the first half almost the ENTIRE year. 

 

In year 2 (of 3-4 transition), the defense was ranked 13 and was showing A LOT of improvement and was only getting better (inspite of the lac of focus on defensive personnel in FA or draft).  Then, in the 3rd year, we loose Rak and Carriker in the 2nd game, but defense plays great the last 7 games (which played a HUGE role in winning last 7 games and making playoffs).  During the offseasons (up until last years draft), there was ZERO focus on the defense as Shanny wanted to give Kyle all of the tools he wanted and even admitted they were not able to go after any defensive players due to the (self imposed....they knew they were trying to circumvent the system) CAP penalty which became an excuse for the 3-13 record. 

 

MS changing defensive game plans and overriding the DC shows a total lack of respect and it is easy to see how and why the defense played like it did.  The players had ZERO trust in what was happening, they are focused on one thing, then the next day HC changes game plan, better yet, during the games, HC overrides the DC which just makes things worse.

 

Bottom line:  Why not give Has and Morris a year to prove they can right this defensive ship.  If they fail, you fire them and bring someone else in.  I also believe just by having a functional Offense, the defense will be better.  The offense was so BAD last year, you really can't blame the defense.

[SkinfanAZ]

I'm not sure what to make of this.  If this is the case that's horrible, but at the same time, we don't know when Mike was calling plays and when Jim was calling plays.  All we know for sure is the Defense was horrible for the last four years.  It's hard to place blame unless we can tell what and when plays were called by Mike and or Jim.  All I know is I can see Mike pulling players in favor of others.  I really like Amerson and I see he wasn't always in the game.  What better way for players (rookies) to learn, especially when the season is done, but by putting them in.  I'm curious to see what Thomas has now that he's coming back from injury.  I also was hoping we gave Chase Minnifield a shot in the DB spot this year.  But I guess we'll wait and see..

[grego]

22 WAS 4.3% 17 0.1% 17 12.7% 22 -5.4% 17 9.6% 15.8% 2.3% 6.4% 21 5.4% 2

From http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

 

I think the 17, which is the weighted Defensive efficiency statistic, is about right.  The defense was playing slightly below average at the end of the year.  Not the worst in the league at all, but not anything great.  

 

 

 

if i'm reading that correctly, our D played the second toughest schedule in the league, while our offense played the second easiest schedule in the league.

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff

 

defense ranked 22nd, offense ranked 23rd. 27th in weighted offense

 

yes, mike, our offense was 'top 6 or 7'.

 

douchebagh.