Schottenheimer: No NFL coach better than Shanahan

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

So if he is brought back and we end up with another non-playoff year, then what?

 

When does his rope run out?

[steve09ru]

So if he is brought back and we end up with another non-playoff year, then what?

When does his rope run out?

Let him go at that point.

If you (not saying you directly) haven't read Fletcher's take on Shanahan then I strongly suggest reading it. A player like Fletcher wouldn't say all of that if he didn't think he could succeed. He didn't have to go into all the details or anything and could have simply said, "Shanahans a good coach and the team backs him 100%" and left it at that but he didn't.

I think going into next year we let mike have year 5, clear out the other positions, possibly bring London in as some sort of defensive coach and see how that goes. Probably not the popular choice but you can't ignore one of the most respected redskins ever and his opinion. You didn't hear that with any other coach he had here

[darrelgreenie]

I might actually agree with you on this point about Shanny but he hasn't lost the locker room...YET, so how can you say he isn't motivating, or a leader of men?

I don't see how the 2 are even related.

I think there is ZERO chance Mike Shanahan returns.

[chipwhich]

I think there is ZERO chance Mike Shanahan returns.

 

Finally you post something I can agree with you on.

[steve09ru]

DG, have you had a chance to read Fletch's comments? Just curious to your thoughts on when he talked about change and wasn't really even asked that question directly.

[SweetAlfred]

Maybe London is hinting towards Shanahan to give him a coaching position.

[skinfan2k]

why would you bad mouth your coach when you are announcing your retirement?  you would only tarnish your playing career.  

[steve09ru]

why would you bad mouth your coach when you are announcing your retirement? you would only tarnish your playing career.

again, he wasn't asked about the coaching situation and could have easily said "Shanahans a good coach and I was happy to play for him". But he went out of his way to say other things and even point out that other coaching changes needed to be made but the HC position was not the one

[NoCalMike]

Ever since Norv, every failure this franchise has experienced has ultimately been blamed on the coach.

 

In the case of Spurrier and Zorn, I am inclined to agree.

[TD Riggo]

Pot, what did you just call Kettle?

 

 

Sorry. Maybe I'm dumb, but I don't get your point. If you're referring to me mentioning Boss Hog's Twitter rap up, that's because they are tweets from people who actually have inside, first hand knowledge of what has gone on both in the Redskins locker room and the Baylor locker room. It's not talking heads on BSPN and NFL=TMZ Network bantering on about things they have no inside knowledge about but do so just to get ratings, or UnWise Mike who posts tripe about everything B.S. just to try and get clicks. These are ACTUAL teammates, current and past.

 

So again .. I don't get your point.

[Conn]

You have detractors Monkman?

 

Come and sit down down next to me and Greenie and buckle up for the ride. 

 

Hail.

Can I hop in the trunk of this clown car or what?!

[Wyvern]

why would you bad mouth your coach when you are announcing your retirement?  you would only tarnish your playing career.

. Perhaps Occam's razor actually applies here?

Occam's razor is the principle in philosophy and science that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity, and therefore the simplest of several hypotheses is always the best in accounting for what is being observed.

That is to say, London Fletcher speaks in support of Coach Shanahan, because he happens to believe he's a good coach. (Otherwise, you were making an assumption that Fletcher would (1) compromise the truth on how he feels, (2) openly lie, and (3) do so because Shanahan would automatically punish him, and (4) this would tarnish his career.

[KCClybun]

Can I hop in the trunk of this clown car or what?!

 

Trunk is already full and there's no room!

[XtremeFan55]

There are 2 ways this is going to play out...

One...Snyder follows form as a petulant owner who is angry and fires Shanahan after the season which gives Shanahan a chance at some prime HC jobs with Houston and Dallas top choices and maybe Atlanta. At this stage of Shanahan's career he is not going back to Oakland or taking a job in Buffalo or some other small market team that can't pay him. So those prime jobs are available for next year.

Snyder by following this path will be playing into Shanahan's hands and giving him a way out with pay....and allowing him to move up to a better team IMO

Second....Snyder has matured and is listening to wise advice and is standing pat and will not fire Shanahan but will make him honor the contract by coaching next year without an extension which will keep Shanahan from landing a prime HC job in 2014

Looking at the teams....I can rationalize what teams might be looking for a HC in 2015 and I don't see one that would appeal to Shanahan. This could be a smarter way for Snyder to handle Shanahan....make him coach next year as lame duck for a contract either with the Redskins or some other team.

Shanahan will have to produce because otherwise he leaves with a very poor record that may prevent him from getting any decent HC job in 2015. Shanahan can also end up finally turning the corner in 2014 and have a winning record which will give him an extension.

So for both parties it seems to me the best course is to keep Shanahan for 2014 without an extension. Snyder wins in several ways by showing maturity and honoring the contract which will make the Redskins a more viable place for future coaches. Shanahan can win because he gets to finish what he started and prove what he said in the beginning that it was a 5 year plan.

This all hinges on how much Snyder has learned over the years. He is either the same immature petulant owner who fires people on whim....or he has matured into an owner that sees the big picture on how keeping his emotions under control can benefit the team and him in the long run.

Meanwhile....it's uncanny that we play the Cowboys this week which can now be looked upon as a audition for the Cowboy's HC job.

And whatever happens...I see Shanahan being reunited with Kubiak as OC either here or in Dallas...with Kyle moving on to show his independence.

I highly doubt RG3 will give any attitude to a proven older coach like Kubiak that may end up bringing the best out of him...especially after the humbling experience of the past few weeks

[elkabong82]

 

No, they looked much better than they have.  Don't down play it.  They looked better because Cousins is better in the pocket than Robert and got the ball out much quicker.

 

Don't overplay it. Cousins did make their job a bit easier because he's more comfortable in the pocket right now, but the OL still didn't look very good, just average at best. Cousins faced pressure at times. even fumbled and took a few big hits and almost got taken out on a bootleg, and this was against, again, the 2nd worst pass rush in the NFL.

 

I hope we beat Dallas, but our OL is soft in the interior and their DL is strong and could cause problems Sunday.

[Laron Burgundy]

. Perhaps Occam's razor actually applies here?

Occam's razor is the principle in philosophy and science that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity, and therefore the simplest of several hypotheses is always the best in accounting for what is being observed.

That is to say, London Fletcher speaks in support of Coach Shanahan, because he happens to believe he's a good coach. (Otherwise, you were making an assumption that Fletcher would (1) compromise the truth on how he feels, (2) openly lie, and (3) do so because Shanahan would automatically punish him, and (4) this would tarnish his career.

 

I think you're right.  It's up to Snyder to talk to the players and leaders of this team and figure what the feel is in the locker room.  If London represents the general feel, then I don't know why you'd change the coach.

[elkabong82]

I think you're right.  It's up to Snyder to talk to the players and leaders of this team and figure what the feel is in the locker room.  If London represents the general feel, then I don't know why you'd change the coach.

 

3-11, 24-38 overall with Shanny having complete control. THAT is why you change the coach.

 

You can dig even deeper if you want, with Shannyleaks, hiring yes men assistants and bad coordinators, using RG3 as a pawn to try and get fired and collect unearned money, etc. But the record really is enough.

 

Much of the roster has to be turned over. Next year's locker room will be very different so feel not important.

[KCClybun]

I think you're right.  It's up to Snyder to talk to the players and leaders of this team and figure what the feel is in the locker room.  If London represents the general feel, then I don't know why you'd change the coach.

 

Uh, because he's not winning any games, he alienating the guy you spent 3 draft picks to get and he's embarked on a smear campaign to ruin the organization and further ruin Dan's already tarnished reputation, even though he's done everything the guy asked for?

 

 

Players are gonna say what they've been coached to say since high school. They'll show respect to the coach, they'll throw their support behind him, they'll line up like good little soldiers and not bad mouth the guy.

 

 

I think it says a lot that DeAngelo Hall told the media he's not going to talk to them anymore this season. Love him or hate him (and a lot of people on this forum hate him), D-Hall is honest. And while London may talk up the guy, Santana Moss has been pretty vocal about how he feels too, including saying he felt like Kirk was being set-up to fail.

 

 

So yeah, London (at his retirement presser) threw his support behind Mike Shanahan and talked him up and said all the right things. He's supposed to. This isn't Occam's Razor. This is one of the most media savvy players to come out of the league in a while understanding that thing are tense at Redskins Park and understanding he doesn't want to add fuel to the fire.

 

 

Or maybe London does really like Mike. It certainly seems possible that there are other players in the lockerroom who don't like him. No lockerroom is unanimously behind a guy, especially in a season like this.

 

 

But taking London's word as gospel is a bad deal. 

[chipwhich]

 

But taking London's word as gospel is a bad deal. 

 

KC why were your podcasts basically saying the players were done prior to the 7 game run last year?

 

How do you expect Shanny to be successful if the players were leaking that stuff to you guys?

 

If I were Shanny, I would have wanted to quit too.  Players running the asylum and all that.

[Wyvern]

How many victories did playing a sub-par Griffin in 2013 cost this team? (Displace as much as you want, but Griffin was not anywhere near an NFL competitive QB this season -- (reasons for another thread)

How many victories did the very much anticipated departure of Former #1's Rogers and Landry cost this team? How do you replace them after the "RG3" trade eliminated our first round draft picks?

How many losses did the loss of Keenan Robinson ( good pass coverage ILB) cost this team through allowing their receivers going underneath for their 3rd down conversions?

How many losses did the absence of decent DBs (through injury) impact the coverage of our special teams; including who was who might run back punts/kickoffs?

Sav Rocca's mid-season decline -- how often did that poor field- Position cost us?

Given the limited number of draft picks, and free agents who could be signed under Mara-imposed cap penalties, how well do you expect Shanahan to find quality NFL-ready replacements?

BOTTOM LINE: please recognize that this team is still going through transition, which was hindered by Mara. This is one reason why I want this team to nail its statement in the Giants' collective team forehead, IN THEIR STADIUM. I want a big FU Mara! tattooed into NY fans' psyches, letting them know we know the cheap thing they did, and that they are going to keep paying for Mara's unethical behavior.

[Bishop Hammer]

Is Marty avaliable? Maybe he'd like a second shot coaching here. LOL.

[RemoveSnyder]

I hate Snyder so therefore I support Shanahan in this mess

 

You're conflating issues here.

RG3 is also to blame in all this because he seems to be another player with an oversized ego trying to be the "icon"

 

Look, Griffin's success or failure is a direct result of the scheme implemented by shanahan x2.

 

An uncomfortable reality is simply that what we have offensively, scheme wise, is a mash-up offense. Contrary to what Chris Mortensen has said multiple times, I might add with no one to correct him, this offense is NOT the Baylor offense. Mort has said outright that shanny built the Baylor offense for Griffin. That's simply not true.

 

What we have here is a WCO passing tree grown onto the Pistol Option offense, like a wart. When shanahan x2 introduced the Pistol, that was something new to Griffin and something that Griffin learned, along with everyone else, upon first introduction.

 

You see, Griffin ran a max Spread (otherwise called Air Raid) offense, which was Vertical in design. In the passing game, routes were combination routes. Literally the offense had three or four plays they could run all within one call. Based upon the defensive alignment pre-snap, as well as the action post-snap, you either had a hand-off to the RB at the meshpoint, or you had QB option, or you had a quick screen, or you had an option route which could have been anything from a Hitch, to a Slant, to a Go ... whatever.

 

There's some complexity to it. But overall, the verbiage and the conceptualization of the system was streamlined and meant to afford the players to react, not think.

 

There's an unending phenomenon on ES which (LOL) tries so terribly to minimize and smear all offenses somehow associated with the collegiate game, or simply, ones not resembling something from the 80s.

 

Anyway...

 

Griff's maturation was with a conceptually "divergent," or otherwise just different passing tree. 

 

I'm talking about, for example, a Trips Right look, where the farthest receiver is literally lining up on the tick marks for the out-of-bounds, while two other receivers are spread to the same side in such a way that it creates horizontal space. Literally creating "splits" just like with an offensive line, where you spread out the defenders.

 

And while each route goes vertically in some sense (some may branch inside at sharp angles or others more subtly with less intense trajectories), each creates space again. Sometimes two or three of the routes are simply trying to draw coverage away from one primary route, so that it exploits a single man-on-man situation.

 

Baylor does it so well that they literally were averaging 70 point a game at one point this year.

Good football is good football. And a good coach is a good coach.

 

Anyway ...

 

The run game was different as well. I won't get into it, but there were similarities in the Option part, but even then, the alignments, the mesh point and especially the line blocking scheme, were and are different between the two (referring to: baylor spread vs skins pistol).

 

You see, Griffin was superlative with the deep ball. His confidence grew from game to game. Any QB's confidence would grow with the success he had. The vertical game and his arm, with his accuracy, were a great marriage.

 

As I said, often the offensive scheme created single man, isolation routes, by design, to minimize the reads, yes, but as well as to maximize the efficiency percentage.

 

A distinction needs to be made here, I'm not talking about shorter, close to the line-of-scrimmage type routes, which yield higher percentage completion. Those do exist, you see P. Manning run **** like that all day. I'm talking about 20+, 30+, 40+ yard vertical throws, which are inherently difficult. Yet the scheme afforded situations where a single WR was in isolation with one defender. Thus the percentage of efficiency went up due to not only Griff's arm but the situation itself.

 

That's to say Griffin was meant for the vertical game. And the design was/is inspired. Philosophically they went for quick strike, homerun, rack 'em and stack 'em type style.

 

Now, concurrent to that, you have a QB, in Cousins, who matriculated in a WCO derivative in college. His offense, which was first run by Don Treadwell (recently fired as HC of Miami of Ohio) and later Dan Roushar (now with the Saints - RB coach) used zone stretch, some play-action bootleg but mostly play-action to straight dropback, with a repertoire of familiar WCO passing routes.

 

Many routes you would recognize, like Drag, the multiple level Drag on bootleg to one side of the field, the underneath Z or Y cross combo'ed with the over-the-top Post and the standard Deep Dig.

 

Obviously the Dig is a staple of every offense and has been run as long as I have been watching football, since the 80s, if not before.

 

It's really not surprising to me that Griffin has struggled with the passing tree here. And it's not surprising to me that Coz looks more comfortable. You see one guy is familiar with an old shoe the other is not.

 

I found the passing tree to be uninspired for the majority of games Griffin played in. There were a few occurrences when Kyle actually spread the field. I recall it took him until the 4th quarter, down by 20+ points vs the Eagles (2nd game) before we literally had our receivers spread OUTSIDE of the numbers.

 

!!! - Yeah. Literally the formation alignments were so tight.

 

In part, when the passing tree was simplified, literally only sending out two routes, it simply backfired because there literally was no where to go. Other times, as things began to wear down and the season hung like a dark cloud, I think the weight of everything just obfuscated any type of clear conclusion. Griff's play suffered and regressed as the season tail-spun out of control (imo).

 

Lots of **** to get into there, but the main point is that shanahan x2 has an offense which caters to one player's strongsuit, in-so-much that it is familiar (resembling past offenses), while the other player is having all plethora of challenges.

 

I support teams not individual players

 

Well I support the team too, so when I read your earlier post, which seemed to revel in the idea that this team would suffer, suffer losses and further humiliation at the hands of shanahan, as the dallas HC no less, it struck me as a little weird.

 

This is what you said:

Wouldn't it be sweet poetic justice if Shanahan got fired....got snatched up by the Cowboys the following day.....and was able to take Romo sits to pee to the next level with Dez Bryant and more talent on their defense than Redskins have and turn them into a juggernaut and salvage his coaching reputation while beating the Redskins twice a year in revenge while exploiting RG3's weaknesses

 

^ I mean ... really read those words.

 

There's nothing sweet about that at all. Those are choice words there, which have nothing to do with the Redskins' TEAM being successful. Actually it's quite the opposite.

 

There's just so much passion in those words of yours, to literally see the Redskins lose, and specifically see Griffin not succeed, while at the same time envisioning specific dallas head-cases like December-Romo sits to pee and ME-Dez to actually succeed.

 

I literally can't fathom the cognitive dissonance you have to have, to state that Griffin is an ego driven player, while actually writing that you'd like to see Dez succeed. That's just ... Hal saying to Dave: "I'm losing my mind."

 

With that, to me, you've gone to that "next level ****"

 

Wanting more failure and more losses because it will vindicate your position, or thoughts, or whatever ... to whatever end, is not how you do it.

 

That's anathma to me. I want to fix things. I'm not looking to exact revenge on the Redskins to satisfy my lust for "being right," in an, "I told you so" manner.

 

Later, here, you added it was a proxy attempt to strike at Dan. Like I said before you're conflating issues.

 

Joe Gibbs Redskins were teams with so many significant players on both sides of the ball....plus the coaches that you couldn't help but cheer for a "team" rather some one individual

 

But don't you see this here, these your very words are your own indictment of shanahan. Look at your own words. I'll start at the beginning. You start with Joe Gibbs, a HC with integrity, someone who kept **** in-house.

 

Then you say "significant players." Look shanahan is the one with final say so. He's our defacto GM. You want to talk about personnel, shanahan is the one who has the onus on his shoulders.

 

Then you mention coaches. Look shanahan is the one who assembled this staff. If you are trying to imply that the coaching staff is sub-standard and that the players are sub-standard, you look no further than the man who has built the team: shanahan.

 

"And then ..." // "No and then ..."

 

The reason for the "sweet poetic justice" was for Shanahan to stick it to this owner that has made our lives miserable for way too long....and yes that would mean sticking it to the Redskins.... but hopefully that would get this owner to finally learn that this team doesn't really belong to him ...

 

K.

 

We (universal WE) can fire an incompetent HC. Last time I checked we can't fire the owner. Despite whatever real issues exist or whatever ethereal issues too, you got to know which avenue is tangible and real and which one is basically fantasy.

[KCClybun]

KC why were your podcasts basically saying the players were done prior to the 7 game run last year?

 

How do you expect Shanny to be successful if the players were leaking that stuff to you guys?

 

If I were Shanny, I would have wanted to quit too.  Players running the asylum and all that.

 

I was on the podcast saying that? I wasn't on the podcast saying ****. I hardly ever speak on the podcast.

 

 

At 3-6 last year, the turmoil wasn't with the players. The turmoil was with the coaching staff. Coaches having issues with Haz. Burney and Slowik were lobbying to take Haz job, Phillip Daniels was lobbying to take Burney's job, everyone was look at Raheem to take Haz job, the offensive coaches all hated the defensive coaches, and the offensive coaches were in-fighting amongst themselves.

 

 

When Mike made his "evaluating for next season" comments, the players were surprised, but even the beat guys said the players were mostly chipper and in good spirits and ready to keep fighting, if not a tiny bit pissed that Mike seemed to randomly give up to them with 7 games to play.

 

 

So yeah, I didn't say jack squat about "inmates running the asylum", unless the inmates in question were the coaches who were going nuts.

[Laron Burgundy]

3-11, 24-38 overall with Shanny having complete control. THAT is why you change the coach.

 

You can dig even deeper if you want, with Shannyleaks, hiring yes men assistants and bad coordinators, using RG3 as a pawn to try and get fired and collect unearned money, etc. But the record really is enough.

 

Much of the roster has to be turned over. Next year's locker room will be very different so feel not important.

 

Can't discount the roster he had been handed.  Belichick had one winning season in 5 years with the Browns.  I think people just don't realize how bad that 2009 roster was.  London said it himself, Danny doesn't have consistency with his head coaches and London believes Shanny is the one who can bring DC back to winning.  If that is the general consensus, and that's a big if, then it's pure mob mentality from the fans to fire him.  I'm totally fine with firing him if the locker room hates him, but I don't think he should be fired just because many fans hate him.  Fans are too fickle to run your football team by their judgment.

 

And I'm really not convinced RG3 is some pawn to get fired.  That's pure conspiracy theorist nonsense.  RG3 has probably taken more big hits than any qb in the nfl this year, and obviously his confidence is wavering on the field.  Do you really want to David Carr him?

 

And I wouldn't be too sure about a massive roster overhaul.  We have plenty of young talent for a core now.  Replace 4 or 5 guys and you could see some big dividends.  Don't need to tear apart half the roster to win with this team.

[chipwhich]

I was on the podcast saying that? I wasn't on the podcast saying ****. I hardly ever speak on the podcast.

 

 

At 3-6 last year, the turmoil wasn't with the players. The turmoil was with the coaching staff. Coaches having issues with Haz. Burney and Slowik were lobbying to take Haz job, Phillip Daniels was lobbying to take Burney's job, everyone was look at Raheem to take Haz job, the offensive coaches all hated the defensive coaches, and the offensive coaches were in-fighting amongst themselves.

 

 

When Mike made his "evaluating for next season" comments, the players were surprised, but even the beat guys said the players were mostly chipper and in good spirits and ready to keep fighting, if not a tiny bit pissed that Mike seemed to randomly give up to them with 7 games to play.

 

 

So yeah, I didn't say jack squat about "inmates running the asylum", unless the inmates in question were the coaches who were going nuts.

 

KC, I don't know your voice, so to be honest, I have no clue who was saying what.  It was your crews podcast.

 

Point is somebody was leaking that information, and it's all been downhill since then.