The "defend Kyle S." Thread

[MartinC]

He didn't abandon the run last night. He just didn't run enough. Balanced in the 1st half to build a lead? Check. All he had to do was keep running in the 2nd half to tire out the defense (20 minutes on the field in the 1st half) and set up some dagger PA passes. Instead, he throws the ball too much. And we blow a double digit lead for the 3rd week in a row.

 

And we all know Has & Burns should have been ****canned weeks ago, so there is no use bringing them up.

 

Can you point to a specific series or play sequence where you thought Kyle threw too much yesterday? Overall we threw 37 times and ran 36 times. 

[steve09ru]

He didn't abandon the run last night. He just didn't run enough. Balanced in the 1st half to build a lead? Check. All he had to do was keep running in the 2nd half to tire out the defense (20 minutes on the field in the 1st half) and set up some dagger PA passes. Instead, he throws the ball too much. And we blow a double digit lead for the 3rd week in a row.

 

And we all know Has & Burns should have been ****canned weeks ago, so there is no use bringing them up.

i don't think he was able to run enough because of the breakdown in the line play (3 sacks in manageable situations) plus the holding penalty.  Those are drive killers and when you can't extend drives, you can eat up clock/yards with runs like I'm sure we wanted to.

[Popeman38]

Can you point to a specific series or play sequence where you thought Kyle threw too much yesterday? Overall we threw 37 times and ran 36 times. 

That is the problem! We were 50/50 at halftime with a 10 pt lead. There is no reason to be negative (even by 1) in the 2nd half. You run the ball. You control the clock and build the lead.

 

Literally the last 3 games Kyle has called for passes when running is GASHING the defense. Den. SD. MIN. 17 carries for 88 yrds 1 TD. 9 carries 51 yds. Don't tell me there is a reason Morris didn't tote the rock at least 17 times in the 2nd half. He was averaging 5.2 in the 1st, and 5.7 in the 2nd. WHY STOP? We should have ended the game with 10+ more runs than passes. If we had, we would be 4-5 with a comfortable win.

[ZRagone]

In terms of running over passing, there were only three times I kind of quibbled with Shanahan's play calls yesterday.

 

With the way Morris was running, I wasn't a fan of the RG3 runs in the 3rd quarter. Would've preferred they went to Morris even though I don't think running RG3 was a BAD call. 

 

The 3rd and 3. This is one of those "can go either way". 3rd and 3 isn't an unusual passing down in the NFL, and our short passing game was doing well. At the same time, with the way Morris was churning along, I would've taken my chances with him getting the 3rd yards.

 

And then finally the DY handoff on 3rd and 1. Give that to Morris. I like the surprise Full Back Dive...but you ran that play a bunch last week, it wasn't a surprise to do it right now. Give that to Morris who was gashing them.

 

Those are the only times in the 2nd half that I had an issue in terms of play calls that should've gone to Morris instead. And even with those, the only one I think was a BAD call was the DY 3rd and 1. Kyle made up for that with an excellent 4th down call with the Robert roll out run.

 

Outside of that, my only other second half issue was that I would've liked to see the 4th down play at the end of the game one where Robert was on the move and had the choice between throwing or running it in.

[Wildbunny]

Can't fathom?????????  I can't fathom how anyone can look at last night's second half and not think Kyle was the issue.  We scored 3 points. 3 points in the second half.  Which means the Vikings made adjustments and we did not.  A football game is 60 minutes long.  I don't care if you put up 50 points in the first half, if you only put up 3 in the second half and lose then it doesn't matter.  The offenses job is to outscore the opponent.  We failed.

 

"Offense is here to fill stadium. Defense is here to win games" - Bill Parcells.

 

But you probably know more than him.

[Redskins Ruckus]

"Offense is here to fill stadium. Defense is here to win games" - Bill Parcells.

 

But you probably know more than him.

 

This. 

[MartinC]

That is the problem! We were 50/50 at halftime with a 10 pt lead. There is no reason to be negative (even by 1) in the 2nd half. You run the ball. You control the clock and build the lead.

 

Literally the last 3 games Kyle has called for passes when running is GASHING the defense. Den. SD. MIN. 17 carries for 88 yrds 1 TD. 9 carries 51 yds. Don't tell me there is a reason Morris didn't tote the rock at least 17 times in the 2nd half. He was averaging 5.2 in the 1st, and 5.7 in the 2nd. WHY STOP? We should have ended the game with 10+ more runs than passes. If we had, we would be 4-5 with a comfortable win.

 

So again I will ask is there a specific sequence of plays you can highlight in the second half were you think Kyle got away from the run for no good reason?

[darrelgreenie]

There more people saying 'people are saying that Kyle abandoned the run' then there are actually people saying 'Kyle abandoned the run'

It's an easy way to avoid a discussion; turn all arguments into your constructed strawman.

[skinzdar55]

There more people saying 'people are saying that Kyle abandoned the run' then there are actually people saying 'Kyle abandoned the run'

It's an easy way to avoid a discussion; turn all arguments into your constructed strawman.

Then, there are people who, in a 3 page thread, use their 2 posts to criticize others' posts without just joining the discussion by stating their opinion or just some facts, about the topic at hand. Add something worthwhile

[Tyron Biggums]

I believe Kyle is a great X's and O's guy, but to me he just lacks the feel for the game. Great game schemes with poor adjustment.

 

HTTR

[steve09ru]

There more people saying 'people are saying that Kyle abandoned the run' then there are actually people saying 'Kyle abandoned the run'

It's an easy way to avoid a discussion; turn all arguments into your constructed strawman.

It doesn't have to be strictly in this thread that it's being said.  Every thread I've been in has been sprinkled with 'Kyle has to go, we abandoned the run' - 'why didn't we run more' - 'we went away from the run in the 2nd half'

[Springfield]

I hope that we keep Kyle. I think that he is a great offensive mind that has already shown (with Houston and here) that he can create a top teir offense. More skilled players would help him, that's for sure.

[ZRagone]

There more people saying 'people are saying that Kyle abandoned the run' then there are actually people saying 'Kyle abandoned the run'

It's an easy way to avoid a discussion; turn all arguments into your constructed strawman.

 

I'm sorry you're being pissy over people responding to what people said, but this is a message board...that's generally what happens. People in this thread and other threads have stupidly suggested that "Kyle abandoned the run" or a variation there of. The fact there are more people who actually function within reality that are there to correct those who are saying completely baseless things isn't some devious diversionary tactic.

 

In terms of "strawmanning", I don't think that word means what you think it means. Here's a hint....responding to what people actually say " isn't "strawmanning".

Responding to someone stating that we didn't "run the ball with a lead" by explaining that we did run the ball with a lead is not "strawmanning"

 

Responding to someone claiming that we didn't run Alfred Morris on our 3 and outs by pointing out that we DID run him on those possessions is not "strawmanning"

 

Responding to someone saying we ran 0 run plays in our final series by pointing out that we did (regardless if you consider the "final series" the entire final drive or the four downs inside the 10) is not "strawmanning"

 

Responding to what people actually say is not "strawmanning", that's debating. I'm sorry you're bothered that people are actually responding to posts that other members make, but htat's kind of the point of a message board so you're probably going to be bothered a lot.

[Popeman38]

So again I will ask is there a specific sequence of plays you can highlight in the second half were you think Kyle got away from the run for no good reason?

3rd QTR (10:19) - 1st & 10 on the MIN 22:

RG3 runs for 1

RG3 inc pass

RG3 inc pass

FG

 

3rd QTR (4:26) - 1st & 10 on the WAS 28:

Morris runs for 5 yds

RG3 pass for 2 yds

RG3 inc pass

Punt

 

4th QTR (14:26) - 1st & 10 on the WAS 32:

Morris runs for 4 yds

RG3 sack

RG3 sack

Punt

 

4th QTR (9:26) - 1st & 10 on the WAS 24:

RG3 inc pass

Morris runs for 7

RG3 sack

Punt

 

Morris is GASHING the Vikings, even in the 2nd half. With what I just listed, there are 9 plays where Morris doesn't touch the ball, and 3 plays where he does. With the lead, and Morris avg 5.4 yds/carry, there is no excuse not to pound him on 1st and 2nd down and throw on 3rd (where we were also gashing them). 

[ZRagone]

-edit-

 

You know what. I misread the end of your post. I still disagree that many of those passing choices, especially on third down, were poor decisions and I think that there was reasonable balance in the 2nd half just as there was in the first and that BALANCE is needed more than run heavy or pass heavy...but my post was off the mark as a response as I thought you were implying something you weren't.

[grego]

I believe Kyle is a great X's and O's guy, but to me he just lacks the feel for the game. Great game schemes with poor adjustment.

 

HTTR

 

 

this is what b mitch was just talking about on 980. and what matich said a couple of weeks ago (not sure what he said about this game). 

 

seems to be able to create plays but when the plan hits a speedbump, doesnt seem to be able to counter punch. 

[Chachie]

 

 

seems to be able to create plays but when the plan hits a speedbump, doesnt seem to be able to counter punch. 

 

 

 

In the boxing game I believe they call this "Great hands, weak chin."

[Voice_of_Reason]

Apart from all of the "He's just terrible, trust me" comments, I'm going to go through a few scenarios where people seem to be piling on, from last night's game.  Some stuff I will defend, some I won't.  

 

1. Start of the game: They started the first drive with 2 Alfred Morris running plays, which brought up a 3rd and 3. I actually hate this with a passion, it's one of my big bugaboos.  I hate having the first pass of the game come on the first 3rd down of the game.  The first run was 3 yards, so it was 2nd and 7.  Later in the game, I don't have strong feelings, but on the first possession, I don't like running on 2nd and 7, because you're inviting a passing 3rd down situation, as the first passing situation.  So, I hated that.  Nobody else seems to have mentioned that yet, but I really didn't like that.  But, it worked. 

 

2. Next sequence of plays take them down to the Minn 1 yard line.  They were balanced, threw and ran, and Robert kept one Read Option (RO from now on in this thread) he might have just handed to Morris, on 2nd and 10 from the 14.  But he did pick up 8.  That led to the 3rd down, which resulted in the penalty to put the ball at the 1. 

 

3. Play calling/scheme from the 1:

  First down: Under center, power formation with a FB and RB, extra man on the right.  They run basically straight up the gut with Morris, and it gets stuffed. Every blocker gets pushed back 2-3 yards, and Morris makes a cut, and tries to bury his way in, but can't.  I don't have a problem with this call. 

  Second down: They use a PA boot.  The fake goes to the left, but the big problem is that nobody accounts for #55 (OLB), who gets immediate pressure on Robert.  Young runs right by him, but can't block him, because the play is designed to go to him.  I don't have a problem running a PA boot. But something didn't work right on that play.  Could be the VIkings get paid too, and just snuffed it out. 

  Third down: Got early pressure, which caused Robert to throw a little early. It hit the intended receiver in the hands.  Maybe the throw could have had a little more touch.  Cooley put that on both Robert and Paulsen. But play call was fine.  Bad execution. Tough to pick on a play call that results in the ball hitting the receiver in the hands.  

 

So, on that sequence, they tried power running, they tried PA off of power running, and they tried a pass.  The OL got beat on the power run. And they had a chance to hook up on the 3rd down, had it hit the receiver in the hands. But couldn't pull off the catch. I don't know how you blame play-calling here.  

 

4. The next 3 drives all resulted in TD passes. The TD passes were 8, 11 and 1 yards. They were balanced, mixed run and pass. The last 3rd down, which was a TD to Paulsen, The vikings were 100% convinced they 'Skins were going to run, completely committed, and Paulsen (and somebody else) were wide open.  Not much to pick on with the play calling on 3 long drives, and 3 TD passes.  Took some stones to call the PA on 3rd and 1 on that last drive, but it worked very well. 

 

5. Drive to start the 3rd quarter started with 2 AM runs. What's interesting is that on the next 3 called run plays, Griffin keeps the ball on 2 of them, sandwiching a Morris run.  There is also a sack on PA on this drive, where I think Monty got run over by Kevin Williams. As soon as Robert planted, he was smooshed.  Drive stalls out after a RO play that Robert keeps for 1 yard, an incomplete pass on 2nd and 9, short to Helu who was well covered, and protection broke down on 3rd and 9. It looked like Robert had a second to plant and throw, but with the TV angle, no way to tell if anybody was open, or even where he was looking.

 

That drive had 3 AM runs, 2 RO plays where Robert kept the ball, and 6 pass attempts.  The only reason AM didn't touch the ball every-other-play is because Robert kept 2 running plays himself. 

 

6. The next drive, which was a 3-out: 1st play was a run to Morris for 5 yards.  2nd was a completed screen pass to Garcon for 2 yards.  On 3rd and 3, incomplete to Garcon. Looked like the defender was draped all over him, and the throw was high. Here is one place in the game I personally think that maybe running on 2nd down might have been a good idea.  But, they completed the pass to Garcon.  It there was a place to pick on something play-calling wise, here is one place.  

 

7. Next drive: Starts with another RO which Robert keeps.  Which is interesting.  I believe that was 3 straight RO plays where he kept the ball instead of handing it to Morris.  The last Morris run in the previous drive was a straight hand-off. However, there is a holding penalty, so in fact, the play never happened.  Garcon gets 18 back on 1st down, and then Morris runs for 5 and the first.   

 

On 1st and 10 from the 33, Morris runs for 4 yards.  On second and 6, Griffin gets sacked.  Looked like he had a second to maybe just unload the ball, but pressure was there pretty quick.  This was on a PA pass.  It looked like they were trying to take a shot deep.  On 3rd and 6, Griff gets crushed.  

 

Here is another place where you can pick at the play calling a little bit.  On 2nd and 6, you could run.  You could also pass.  They chose to pass, and it didn't work out.  

 

On this drive, though, Morris carried twice

 

8. Next drive was a 3-out.  This is the drive that drives me crazy. Because this is now the third week in a row, in either the late 3rd or early 4th quarter that Kyle has called a PA play on first down in a drive, gotten a guy WIDE open (this week it was Reed's turn), and they can't complete the pass.  They set up this play from snap 1, had what they wanted, an explosive play up the seam, and they blew it.  Throw was high. Perfect call.  Horrible execution.  Morris ran for 7 on second down. Chester got beat for a sack on 3rd down. And punt.  

 

There is no way you can pick on the play calling here.  This was exactly what you want. Use the run to set up the pass.  They did just that, and then blew it.  And then the DT ran over the C and RG.  Forget blitz.  If you can't block the DT, then nothing can work.  This drive made me almost vomit. Though not from a play-calling perspective, but from an execution perspective.  

 

9. Last drive of the game.  The calling and clock management was 100% A+ until they got to the 8 yard line. They started the drive with 3:47 on the clock and no time-outs. They didn't panic. They didn't abandon the running game.  They just calmly put together 11 plays to get them to the 8 yard line. It was brilliant all the way around. 

 

1 point, though: On 3rd and 1 at the 49 yardline, they tried a power run with DY.  It didn't work.  They converted the 4th and 1 with a Robert run. Which makes 2 times in this game that they tried a power run, once with Morris, and once with DY, which got stuffed.  The Vikings went to school on the 3 DY TDs from short yardage last week.  It wasn't going to work 2 weeks in a row.  And that just isn't what this OL is good at.  

 

10: The final 4 plays. Context, they started with 46 seconds left and no TOs.  

Play 1: Draw play with Helu. Which came closer to working that you'd think.  They got a bunch of yards, but there were several blocks that didn't quite hold up. I think if properly blocked, that play goes in for the TD.  Tough to tell, but it's possible.   But that got them to the 4. 

Play 2: Threw the ball to Reed. Reed was being held, but the ball hit him in the hands.  He also had Moss open slightly farther to the sideline, on basically the same route.  Can't fault the play-call here.  Had 2 guys open, but couldn't complete the pass.

Play 3: This looked like a quick slant.  Throw was high. I think Garcon was supposed to catch the ball and plow in.  Blitz was on, so Robert had to unload quickly.  After watching this several times, I think that if Robert makes a better throw, Garcon scores.   The reason he was taken down the way he was is that he stopped running to reach back for the ball.  If he could have just run through the ball, I think he scores.  Won't ever know for sure.  I can't fault that play call either. 

Play 4: And the play that everybody wants to fire Kyle for.  It wasn't that bad a call.  Blitz was on, and Moss was open.  He beat the defender off the ball, and this wasn't a "jump ball" fade type of route.  If I had to pick on anything, I think if Robert gets the ball out a hair sooner (and he had that luxury), he might be able to get the ball in there.  The defender wasn't part of the play. Was in trail position. The question is all one of timing, and they could have connected.

 

Ok, so, with all that said. There are a few places where you can pick on the play calling.  But Kyle called a hell of a balanced game. There were a few plays here and there where they could have done something different.  But play calling, even the last play call, wasn't the reason they lost this game.

 

You can put it on Kyle that he's supposed to be responsible for execution, also. That's fair.  But the play calling wasn't bad.  

 

The reason they lost this game is because the defense can't stop anybody, and the ST stinks.  

 

And, btw, I think Robert had a pretty good game, in general.  There was one terrible pass on 1st down to Reed. That's the only glaring error.  Everything else was sortof "a beat late" or not perfect ball placement.  But, that happens.  

[HAILSKINSNYC]

Kyle does some good things, but there are too many issues...

 

1)  He's very predictable in certain situations....Play action on 1st down deep in our territory...99.9 pass on 3rd and 2 - 4.

 

2)  Not moving RG3 around enough....he's not yet a pocket passer  and the interior o-line can't pass block.

 

3) He often panics and gets away from the run....not last night, but he's done it often.

 

4) He doesn't adjust well enough when a team makes an adjustment to the offense.

 

 

[darrelgreenie]

Z-

Not at all. Rather its you that seems 'pissy'

Tired of these pseudo discussions especially an entire thread that is one. But I guess when you open a thread where the OP predetermines the opposing argument as opposed to actually inviting dialogue this is what you get.

It's tiresome to have defend oneself because people assume: you think Kyle abandoned the run, you think Kyle should be fired etc...

[RandyHolt]

I believe Kyle is a great X's and O's guy, but to me he just lacks the feel for the game. Great game schemes with poor adjustment.

 

HTTR

 

thanks for summing up nicely what would take me 10 minutes and 1000 keystrokes.

 

His job is hard no doubt. Every OC can be seconded guessed on calls. But a pattern I saw to end the game, is KS doesn't let RG3 target our stud receivers in the endzone very often. Its always Moss, Paulsen, Paul. Heck even Compton was running around out there. And they do ok. But to close out games, we need to make his primary read his go to guys. That is now Reed and Garcon, who look almost unstoppable to me. Kyle needs a few adds... .like a high throw to Reed along the back of the endzone. Go up and get one.

 

OT, we had 3 guys wide open on that Paulsen TD play. Compton ran into triple coverage as the TD was scored. You think our D looks bad? Watch that play my lord.

[MartinC]

3rd QTR (10:19) - 1st & 10 on the MIN 22:

RG3 runs for 1

RG3 inc pass

RG3 inc pass

FG

 

3rd QTR (4:26) - 1st & 10 on the WAS 28:

Morris runs for 5 yds

RG3 pass for 2 yds

RG3 inc pass

Punt

 

4th QTR (14:26) - 1st & 10 on the WAS 32:

Morris runs for 4 yds

RG3 sack

RG3 sack

Punt

 

4th QTR (9:26) - 1st & 10 on the WAS 24:

RG3 inc pass

Morris runs for 7

RG3 sack

Punt

 

Morris is GASHING the Vikings, even in the 2nd half. With what I just listed, there are 9 plays where Morris doesn't touch the ball, and 3 plays where he does. With the lead, and Morris avg 5.4 yds/carry, there is no excuse not to pound him on 1st and 2nd down and throw on 3rd (where we were also gashing them).

Check Voice of Reasons post #93 above. He says everything I would say to you in response to your post and better. The only sequence of those above I disagreed with in real time was the second - after the 5 yard pick up I would have run Morris again on 2nd and 5 but a bubble screen to Garçon is a high percentage pass play so it's tough to be too critical of that without getting into nitpicking.

I would add that you are mixing two different arguments - we got away from the run too much in the second half (which I disagree with) and the second being when we did run we did not put the ball in Morris hands enough (I don't fully agree with this either but I have some sympathy with the sentiment).

[skinzdar55]

Z-

Not at all. Rather its you that seems 'pissy'

Tired of these pseudo discussions especially an entire thread that is one. But I guess when you open a thread where the OP predetermines the opposing argument as opposed to actually inviting dialogue this is what you get.

It's tiresome to have defend oneself because people assume: you think Kyle abandoned the run, you think Kyle should be fired etc...

Like I said to you after the first time you attacked my OP without an ounce of intelligent material to back up your claim, add something worthwhile to the discussion. If my OP is so bad, prove me wrong with your obvious infinite wisdom, instead of just rambling. Don't just try to sound smart. BE smart. Explain why my OP is so bad.

[steve09ru]

The thing is we ran a ton of RO in that game.  It's not that the ball was taken out of his hands purposely, the opportunity at the time of the run was decided by RG3 and the position of the D and not the play calling.  If the opportunity was there that Morris would have gained more then RG3 would have handed off instead of keeping it on a lot of his 2nd half runs.  Again, we always get on Kyle or whoever for taking the foot off the gas and just running on 1st/2nd and punting on 3rd.  He called plays that gave us the best chance.  Unfortunately, we didn't execute and there were breakdowns in the line that resulted in 3rd and longs which ended drives and didn't allow him to continue to run the ball.

 

I don't have a problem with the screens on 2nd either.  Garcon had already had a nice 10 yard gain and 30 yard gain on those plays earlier in the game.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Kyle does some good things, but there are too many issues...

 

1)  He's very predictable in certain situations....Play action on 1st down deep in our territory...99.9 pass on 3rd and 2 - 4.

 

2)  Not moving RG3 around enough....he's not yet a pocket passer  and the interior o-line can't pass block.

 

3) He often panics and gets away from the run....not last night, but he's done it often.

 

4) He doesn't adjust well enough when a team makes an adjustment to the offense.

I'd counter with this:

 

1. I'd like to see the league average of pass/run on 3rd and 2-4. I'm pretty sure we're pretty close to the average.  It's a passing league now.  3rd and 3 is now a passing situation.  Didn't used to be, but it is now.

2. He moved him around quite a bit the last 2 weeks.  Problems arise when you don't block the back-side OLB on a PA Boot, or just ignore a rusher on a roll-out.  Which, they have been doing for weeks now.  

3. I think that's more of a myth than reality.  It's happened, for sure, but I'm not sure it's as egregious as it's made out to be.  Dallas ended with 22 straight passes against Minn. last week. That's abandoning the run.  

4. I actually disagree with this.  I think that adjustments are there. Execution isn't.  In the second half of the Minn. game, there were plenty of plays to be made, with the same play-calls.  But they were not made because "something" happened. Bad protection, drop, bad pass, etc. 

 

He's not flawless, by any stretch. But I think he gets a lot more criticism, mostly for being Mike's son, than he deserves.  

 

Jim Haslett, he is not.

 

EDIT: Keep in mind that as OC, he's also responsible for execution.  So, some of the bad execution is on him too.  But, flip side, players got to make plays.