The "defend Kyle S." Thread

[darrelgreenie]

Ok, I have several problems with this post but here is the statement that is the biggest problem "like the fact that over the course of the season his offensive unit has scored fewer offensive points/TDs then one of ours DBs."   This is nothing but gross 

exaggeration attempting to make a point which is exactly what the post is railing about!..................Sorry friend, you're all upset over a typo. Its statement, a true and damning statement, that I've been posting for awhile in several different threads. I was typing quickly on my phone and left out the the 1st quarter.

As you can see I even posted it earlier in this thread:

 

...But at the same time it makes you wonder why more concepts like them weren't used at the start of the season when through 7 games the offensive unit was outscored in the 1st qtr by D.Hall.

Yes KS can drive me nuts sometimes and it does appear in the second half he gets a little pass happy. But in the end, the Off is just not our problem here. They are scoring points and moving the ball. It's the D and STs that are a disaster. We are 3.5 years into Haslett and we have bad personnel, poor game plans and even worse defensive play calling.

This team has several problems which act in unison to make them a bad team. They this team is built the offense needs to protect the defense. And when the offense struggles, which it clearly did until recently, the team cannot win. The offense did not lose the Vikings game but that doesn't mean the offense isn't a major reason for our 3-6 record.

[wysknz1]

He still is kinda young. I question a lot of what he calls but I'm no NFL guru. But the OT drive two weeks ago I thought was perfectly called from first to last play. so there's hope?

[Tyron Biggums]

He still is kinda young. I question a lot of what he calls but I'm no NFL guru. But the OT drive two weeks ago I thought was perfectly called from first to last play. so there's hope?

Sure there's hope. Kyle overall is a good OC, and very young with a lot of knowledge. I think his biggest drawbacks are over thinking/being too creative, and not fully maximizing players strengths. I do like that he makes aggressive mistakes. Which is much better then Hasshat's mistake of not being aggressive at all.

 

Hail 

[garyclarkforhall]

It seems crazy that we're killing Kyle.  The offense is fifth in the NFL... third in rushing.

 

The four teams ahead of them have Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, and Aaron Rodgers as quarterbacks... and the Eagles.  I could only imagine those three QBs in Kyle's offense.  

 

This is not an attack on RG... just the reality that he doesn't have the experience of those guys to make quick decisions, get rid of the ball, and attack downfield when appropriate with accuracy.

[RandyHolt]

If Mike was the OC, we'd be 3rd in rushing.

 

Speculating... its becoming a passing league more and more, so leading in rushing is becoming less relevant than in years past. It can make us dependent on the run to pass, which can hurt us when we are losing and need lots of TDs.

 

I find it very difficult to grade Kyle.  I think any OC can meet reasonable expectation inheriting a largely unstoppable run game. Not that Kyle is not a great offensive mind, but all long time skins fans know if you can run the ball, your offense is going to be a force to be reckoned with.  Only, where is the deep game? The run should be opening up more, but it is not.

 

So what I like to do is judge Kyle more heavily on his stand alone passing game. His passing offense is why he is here. While he may be a bit limited from a personnel standpoint, Garcon goes a long way to minimize a lack of a go to #2.

 

To prove himself to me, I simply want to see us able to pass the ball without establishing the run first, and want to see our offense overall look more polished.  We often look disorganized. Plays seem slow to get in. We often burn a timeout. The invisible act in the first half was mind numbing. Ironically, our turbo has looked near unstoppable in its very rare appearances; yet we don't see it much. Its obvious Kyle does not like it. I think he thinks it hurts him. As our esteemed colleague Tyron Bigguns stated, he seems to out think himself.  I think he doesn't have to time to do that, in turbo. Just let the offense go do its thing, less meddling.

 

Overall for a top rated O, we have no identity, we are Jekyll and Hyde every week. What will it be this week. Countless tosses, RG3 running; RG3 confined to his room pocket.  The option to Reed looked great but I bet we don't see it the rest of the year. While I know Kyle is trying to keep defenses off balance, I feel like his dynamic approach keeps us off balanced as well.  When we put together a mistake free drive, I am often surprised. That is not a normal feeling for a fan watching his top ranked offense.

 

Robert is a young QB finding his place and I think its imperative Kyle support him more, and use him to his strengths much more than he is. Less exposing to the weakness of our offense, our interior OL.

[RG3Hunna]

It seems crazy that we're killing Kyle.  The offense is fifth in the NFL... third in rushing.

 

The four teams ahead of them have Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, and Aaron Rodgers as quarterbacks... and the Eagles.  I could only imagine those three QBs in Kyle's offense.  

 

This is not an attack on RG... just the reality that he doesn't have the experience of those guys to make quick decisions, get rid of the ball, and attack downfield when appropriate with accuracy.

That's what i'm saying I don't understand how people are killing kyle when we're a top rated offense. The problem is with the defense we need to fix that and we'll win a lot of games. We have a young QB and we're still a top rated offense imagine when the kid actually knows what he's doing as a pocket passer.

 

If we can just get the defense to middle of the pack 15-22 ranking we would be EXTREMELY difficult to beat. 

[MartinC]

To prove himself to me, I simply want to see us able to pass the ball without establishing the run first, and want to see our offense overall look more polished.  

 

Then we need to find a significant upgrade to the pass blocking on the interior of our O'Line. I don't care who the OC is its tough to drop back pass if you cant protect. Its tough to draw up blocking schemes if you can't block 2 DTs with 2 guards and a centre - and we have not been able to far too often. We could use an upgrade at RT as well (although quietly Polumbus has been solid this year for the most part IMO). 

 

The 5 starters are one high draft pick and 4 low to medium priced free agents. Its no coincidence we have one pro bowl calibre player and a bunch of guys. 

[RandyHolt]

Then we need to find a significant upgrade to the pass blocking on the interior of our O'Line. I don't care who the OC is its tough to drop back pass if you cant protect. Its tough to draw up blocking schemes if you can't block 2 DTs with 2 guards and a centre - and we have not been able to far too often. We could use an upgrade at RT as well (although quietly Polumbus has been solid this year for the most part IMO). 

 

The 5 starters are one high draft pick and 4 low to medium priced free agents. Its no coincidence we have one pro bowl calibre player and a bunch of guys. 

Agreed.  I think with his recovery coupled with the decision to play him as he was still slow coming back, and teach him about life in the pocket, we should have beefed up the interior to start the year.

 

You seem to know the game well - let me ask.

How difficult is it for 4-3 or 3-4's to completely take away the rollouts, waggles, sprint out? 

 

It never ceases to amaze me how little we see of it. I imagine defenses are taking it away, or are scheming for it, but we just do it so rarely.  Yet to my amateur eyes, seems one of the few options to compensate for a thin interior when its time to pass. 

 

I wonder is Kyle is thinking they ARE prepared for it, but the doesn't even test it to confirm.

 

When we drafted Robert, I had these grand visions of his legs being used more in the passing game. And no, not when being flushed out of the pocket. Designed plays, roll out the lineman in pass pro type stuff.

[darrelgreenie]

RE: Past few posts about Kyle/offense

 

(1) Our offensive stats are very misleading because early in the season we amassed a bunch of 'empty' yards in blowouts. And have been outscored by a wide margin in the 1st quarters of games. (even by our very own CB: DeAngelo Hall)

 

(2) Its a 'running league' sure that is true to an extent but its not coincidence that 7 out of 10 of the top rushing offenses went to the playoffs. 70%

 

 

Kyle

Kyle has to be given credit for the dynamic offense he was a part of last year. But, when you look at the whole of his tenure here it seem to indicate that last year was the exception and even last year the important metrics like 3rd down conversion rate, RZ success were lacking.  

                                                                                                                                    

[RandyHolt]

Do those teams run to set up the pass, or vice versa.  Or can they do both, and that is really the key to their overall success.

 

I think great rushing offenses generally affords teams the ability to milk the clock, as a means of finishing off their opponents. Think Gibbs 1. But you still need to pass.

 

I remember hearing a few years back, that all playoff QBs had amassed over 4000 yards passing. Well, everyone except for Tebow of course. Overall, I generally see teams with high powered offenses making the playoffs, over teams with the 86 Bears approach to winning.

 

Following up on DarrelGreenie...

 

Kyle

While I was thrilled he implemented the pistol and let RG3 run plays he was familiar with, I find it a bit disconcerting to know his best offensive year and only our playoff appearance was the year he stole pages from the Baylor playbook. I believe OC's have pride and want to be innovative, but I think it largely remains a copy cat league. OCs run risk of losing sight of the basics, to run exotic plays no one has seen before. KISS. Keep it simple Shanahan.

[TheTotalPackage]

I always see, 'they abandoned the run in the 2nd half' so that people can place blame on Kyle.  However, if you actually look at it, RG3 was sacked on back to back drives (3 total) there is also that holding penalty in there to.  And within those 2 drives, they still ran the ball, it's just that you can't run it when you are staring at 1st and 20, 3rd and 16, etc.  The fact is, they continued to run the ball but drives weren't sustained due to the sacks so we ended up punting.  The drives we punted included a 3rd and 3 (sack), 2nd and 6 (sack), and high incomplete pass to Garcon that he probably should have caught on a 3rd and 2.  Throw in the would be 2nd and 1 (holding) and there's your drive killers, not the playcalling.

 

can't get sacked on a run play, eh?  

[MartinC]

You seem to know the game well - let me ask.

How difficult is it for 4-3 or 3-4's to completely take away the rollouts, waggles, sprint out? 

 

Conventional wisdom is its harder to run waggles and roll outs against a 3-4 compared to a 4-3. Thats to do with the extra speed you have on the outside with a linebacker setting the backside edge compared to a DE in a 4-3 (though you can still have a linebacker in some calls set the backside edge in a 4-3 as well).

 

I have read we don't like to call roll outs against 3-4 defenses as much.

 

Whats really different though for RGIII compared to say Kirk Cousins is the way the backside defender plays RGIII. The defense is much more concerned with keeping RGIII in the pocket and you don't get the same crash inside against the running back. Of course if the backside defender is playing contain on RGIII thats one less defender to stop Alfred Morris, which brings us back to the need to establish the run first and then use play action off that once the defense has to adjust to the way its defending to stop the bleeding. 

[MartinC]

Kyle

Kyle has to be given credit for the dynamic offense he was a part of last year. But, when you look at the whole of his tenure here it seem to indicate that last year was the exception and even last year the important metrics like 3rd down conversion rate, RZ success were lacking.  

                                                                                                                                    

 

I think the 3rd down success rate stat is one of the key stats in football on the offensive side of the ball. The best way to sustain a running game is staying on the field and converting 3rd downs is key in that. I agree with your point that we have not been good on 3rd downs even last year - but its been very encouraging the improvement we have seen on our 3rd down conversions the last couple of weeks.

 

That improvement gives me hope for the development of the wider passing game - 3rd and passing is the hardest down to pass on so if you can be efficient in that situation you should be able to be efficient on 1st and 2nd downs as well.

[RandyHolt]

Conventional wisdom is its harder to run waggles and roll outs against a 3-4 compared to a 4-3. Thats to do with the extra speed you have on the outside with a linebacker setting the backside edge compared to a DE in a 4-3 (though you can still have a linebacker in some calls set the backside edge in a 4-3 as well).

 

I have read we don't like to call roll outs against 3-4 defenses as much.

 

Whats really different though for RGIII compared to say Kirk Cousins is the way the backside defender plays RGIII. The defense is much more concerned with keeping RGIII in the pocket and you don't get the same crash inside against the running back. Of course if the backside defender is playing contain on RGIII thats one less defender to stop Alfred Morris, which brings us back to the need to establish the run first and then use play action off that once the defense has to adjust to the way its defending to stop the bleeding. 

Great, thanks

 

I find it a bit ironic that Cousins and even Rex, do not get defended to rollout / boot, yet we seem to run it with them both quite often, and is a staple in the Kyle offense. I keep finding myself going back to Cleveland, and Cousins sitting in the pocket getting crushed, and then Kyle finally calling all those boots and the rest was history. Poor Cleveland never adjusted.

 

Even times when the boot gets snuffed, a play can be made. Was it the game winning TD by Cousins vs Baltimore, guy in his face, lobs it over his head for an easy TD.

 

Kyle just seems shy to run it, when I think a healthy RG3 should be able to allude that LB / DE.  Or still make a play one on one, if nothing else, pumping the guy off his feet and going around, or still throwing it.

 

In the few times I have seen RG3 moved outside, I have seen more often than not, success. And its rare the end just has him dead to rights. Sprint outs from pistol should make it difficult to beat 3 to his spot.

[Suffolk_Skins]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2013/11/12/why-the-fourth-down-pass-to-santana-moss-against-the-vikings-was-a-good-call/

[Warhead36]

Kyle's offenses average in the top 5 of the NFL in four of his six years as an OC. The only two years he didn't were 2010-2011 with the abombinations we had at QB, but hell even in 2011 with Rex/Beck we were in the top half of the NFL in offense.

[garyclarkforhall]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2013/11/12/why-the-fourth-down-pass-to-santana-moss-against-the-vikings-was-a-good-call/

 

There's a great picture in this post (4th photo) just before RGIII releases the ball on fourth down.  Again, I will harp on reads... it's zero coverage and Jordan Reed is matched up with a linebacker.  Reed is calling for the ball as his LB coverage is stumbling behind him... no Viking in site.  This is a touchdown.  Ugh...

[Taylor 36]

And which two genius' built that line again that way?

 

Hail. 

Mara and Goodell.

There's a great picture in this post (4th photo) just before RGIII releases the ball on fourth down.  Again, I will harp on reads... it's zero coverage and Jordan Reed is matched up with a linebacker.  Reed is calling for the ball as his LB coverage is stumbling behind him... no Viking in site.  This is a touchdown.  Ugh...

Hell, with that hole in front of him, RGII could have almost walked into the endzone himself.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Mara and Goodell.

 

Interestingly, I'm busy researching deep into Shanahan, his career O-line's/ the cap et all so I'll let you debate that there if and when I finally format it. 

 

FWIW, I don't think this line would much of any different if we'd had the $ 36 million. 

 

Hail. 

[garyclarkforhall]

We would have a different RT

[planter]

Kyle and Dad need to prioritize pass-pro. It.starts with the O Line but goes beyond that... For instance as Williams overpowers Monty (again) he is passed by (blocking?)RB Young who appears to be on a pass route..no chip help for Monty. Williams is clearly on a direct collision path with RGIII. RB Morris who is in Williams path - DODGES Williams! QB Sack !

[justice98]

The numbers speak for themselves, the offense has been remarkably productive over his tenure in DC given the talent deficiencies in spots like WR and the OL and extenuating circumstances, such as RG3's injury/recovery.  

[justice98]

Kyle and Dad need to prioritize pass-pro. It.starts with the O Line but goes beyond that... For instance as Williams overpowers Monty (again) he is passed by (blocking?)RB Young who appears to be on a pass route..no chip help for Monty. Williams is clearly on a direct collision path with RGIII. RB Morris who is in Williams path - DODGES Williams! QB Sack !

 

Well, part of that goes on the QB too.  I think RG3 just runs the plays that are called and doesn't do a whole lot of adjusting at the line.  I could be wrong, but that's what it seems like. Either change the play or get the ball out quicker.  

 

Speaking of pass pro, I don't know if I buy the notion that ZBS OL aren't built to pass protect, which always seems like the excuse for the difficulties in pass pro.  Like you HAVE to trade off success running the ball at the expense of pass blocking.  I don't think that's really the case.  Matt Schaub's a pocket passer, but they always kept him upright pretty good in Houston and they run the ZBS to great effect.  It's just easier to run block than pass block and our guys just haven't been that talented as an OL group since they've been here.  

[justice98]

Kyle's offenses average in the top 5 of the NFL in four of his six years as an OC. The only two years he didn't were 2010-2011 with the abombinations we had at QB, but hell even in 2011 with Rex/Beck we were in the top half of the NFL in offense.

 

I don't think people appreciate that feat.  Tim Hightower was the starting RB coming into the year, Jabar Gaffney wound up being the leading WR.  Jammal Brown was gimping around still, Trent got suspended.  

[knowledge316]

We would have a different RT

Seriously, people need to actually watch the games instead of placing the blame on Polumbus for the OL issues. Dude has been a real surprise this season. He has only given up 1 sack all season long and only has 2 penalties (1 false start and 1 holding). I posted the half-season stats for him (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/11/06/midseason-all-division-team-nfc-east/). He has graded out 96.0 on pass protection efficiency (18 hurries in 343 attempts). That ranks him 14th among ALL tackles (Trent Williams came in 11th). So, I'm not sure what you guys expect from him.

 

If you watched the game Thursday, you'd noticed that Kyle Williams had ZERO sacks 1st half when the offense dominated. When they moved him to the DT position going against the awful interior, he came up with 3 sacks. But I guess that's also Polumbus' fault.