Election 16: Donald Trumps wins Presidency. God Help us all!

[The Evil Genius]

I guess I don't see any of the GOP candidates as being that person either, JMS. Thus I will likely choose the least damaging of the two candidates and hope she turns out to be a lot like her husband. Someone who I still feel was an excellent President (board opinion be damned).

While I can see that argument, I don't think I'd be THAT eager to jump to the "they hate her cause she's a woman" conclusion.

I will point at the number of people in this thread who have pointed out that they just plain don't LIKE Cruz. So the "I get a greedy feeling from this one" label isn't EXCLUSIVELY applied to women.

 

Understandable. Although (re:Cruz) I thought the hate was because he is an over the top evangelical with Jay Cutler doucheface disease?

[tshile]

Clinton has made her own likeability issues. She appeals to people unable to compare one video of what she says to another video of her talking about the same topic to a different crowd. Or people who think her fake accents are real for some reason. Anyone hear her speech after Nevada? Could she be more phony?

(And I'm not talking about the people that are going to choose her because of the rest of the clown show)

[Predicto]

Maybe Predicto is right that this distrust of Hillary is all the result of a "vast right wing conspiracy," or maybe it's just that she actually is dishonest,

 

 

I didn't claim it was "all" the rest of the mudslinging, but it played a large part in transforming her from a fairly typical traditional politician into the Wicked Witch of the West.  

[JMS]

Larry was giving me a hard time earlier for saying I distrust Hillary, but at least I'm in good company. It seems 67% of Americans agree with me.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/bernie-sanders-will-becom_b_9289066.html?

Maybe Predicto is right that this distrust is all the result of a "vast right wing conspiracy," or maybe she just isn't honest, but either way I think the DNC has really screwed the pooch by anointing her. She won't win the general.

Like I've been trying to tell you guys, a vote for Hillary is a vote for the GOP. If you don't want Trump, Cruz, or Rubio in the Oval Office, then Bernie us your best bet.

 

 

What kind of candidate would engineer a corrupt campaign which would allow her to win even though the other side has all the energy, issues, and enthusiasm.     What kind of candidate would rely on super delegates to defeat her rival and then try to blame the supporters for the other side for her weakness?    

 

I think you are right,  It leaves a sour taste in the mouth for Bernie Supporters when the DNC has done everything they could do to handicap Bernie,   not for the good of the party, but for the benefit of Hillary.    When debate moderators are employee's of the Clinton Foundation.     It really hurts the democratic party when they have an anointed candidate given so many folks don't want her.. nearly half the party.. .  It hurts the Democrats,  it also hurts hillary..   Because Hillary thought so little of the voters choice,  it hurts her ability to secure those voters in the general.

[tshile]

I didn't claim it was "all" the rest of the mudslinging, but it played a large part in transforming her from a fairly typical traditional politician into the Wicked Witch of the West.

The people the GOP mudslinging appeals to were never going to consider her likeable anyways.

Her lack of likeability in her own party is about her.

I don't know if Bill was so phony or fake compared to her, but if he was the media landscape and lack of Internet would definitely explain why he got away with it and she doesn't.

Also, the likeability difference seems to be very much generation; IE the people who loved Bill don't seem to be the ones fueling the likeability issue (unless I read the polls wrong? Been a while since I read any, could easily be misremembering)

[Predicto]

While I can see that argument, I don't think I'd be THAT eager to jump to the "they hate her cause she's a woman" conclusion.

I will point at the number of people in this thread who have pointed out that they just plain don't LIKE Cruz. So the "I get a creepy feeling from this one" label isn't EXCLUSIVELY applied to women.

 

 

Well I can't stand Cruz's face because the ugliness of his face mirrors the ugliness of everything he says and does.  

[tshile]

Cruz has this creepy pause before he speaks that just makes me think he's phony too. That's part of the reason I don't like him. He also reminds me of Hannity - smart guy who knows half the crap he says is wrong but he's playing a game that to him is bigger and more important that being an honest person.

[The Evil Genius]

 

 

I think you are right,  It leaves a sour taste in the mouth for Bernie Supporters when the DNC has done everything they could do to handicap Bernie,   not for the good of the party, but for the benefit of Hillary.    When debate moderators are employee's of the Clinton Foundation.     It really hurts the democratic party when they have an anointed candidate given so many folks don't want her.. nearly half the party.. .  It hurts the Democrats,  it also hurts hillary..   Because Hillary thought so little of the voters choice,  it hurts her ability to secure those voters in the general.

 

I'd say Bernie being a self professed socialist has done most of the damage. The same way being a neo-con or tea partier does on the right. When your views only represent a small portion of your party and you cannot fully court the moderates of your party until all the opposition in your party is eliminated, you start with a disadvantage. 

[JMS]

But are there any likeable female politicans? Or have we (the american electorate) labeled them all ****es subconciously? And is what makes the unlikeable the same thing we gloss over with most male polticians?

 

Evil Genius,  Stop buying the BS.   Criticizing Hillary shouldn't be equated with criticizing all women.    I know of no one criticizing Hilary because she has a vagina, and the only person making that case is hillary in the face of criticisms which has nothing to do with her VJJ.

 

To me, those are uncomfortable questions that no one seems to be asking. Is Hillary different from Bill? Why was/is Bill so loved by almost the entire D Party but Hillary isn't (assuming there isn't much difference between the two)?

Genius you think Democrats loved Bill Clinton? Bill Clinton is who delivered the white house to George W.

You think Democrats like serial rapests or powerful politicians who prey on women volunteers. We don't.

Likewise Bill didn't really represent core Democratic Ideals.. Bill was best at representing himself.

I would argue Bill is a big problem for Hillary in the Democratic party not an asset. Especially for the Left side of the party which is giving Hillary all the problems both in 2008 and now in 2016.

[PeterMP]

But are there any likeable female politicans? Or have we (the american electorate) labeled them all ****es subconciously? And is what makes the unlikeable the same thing we gloss over with most male polticians?

 

To me, those are uncomfortable questions that no one seems to be asking. Is Hillary different from Bill? Why was/is Bill so loved by almost the entire D Party but Hillary isn't (assuming there isn't much difference between the two)? 

 

Bill, some how (in a way that I think is very unusual, even among successful politicians) was able to project a personality even through the tv or large audiences that he cared about his audience as an individual.

 

I've seen Bill Clinton talk in a large audience, and he just projects empathy in a way that most people, and certainly, his wife don't.

 

I never voted for him in either election, but having seen him speak I still respect his ability to project a trusting and empathetic persona.

 

If you see Bill Clinton speak, you walk away thinking he was talking to you, and he'll do what is best for you.

 

(I'll note I don't think other real successful candidates have done that in the same manner.  I don't think Reagan was as good at that.  I think Reagan was good at convincing people that he really cared about the country and he had some truths that had eluded his competitors/contemporaries that would make the country better for everybody- even if on the surface it seemed to be contradictory in nature.  He didn't care for you as an individual, but he cared for the country and his solutions would fix the country and therefore help everybody.  

 

This is Trump's appeal too.  You might not like him and even some of his ideas, BUT he has solutions and his solutions will make everything better for everybody.  

 

Sanders hasn't tapped into this as well.  He's going to help some by hurting others (who are doing really well and even too well).  He should circle it back in by helping others, he's actually going to even help them (e.g. the wealthy NEED the middle class to be successful by bolstering the middle class long term, he'll bolster the wealthy so even if they are too ignorant to recognize it he's really helping them too (and Reagan made this argument in the other direction, helping the wealthy helped everybody even if the lower/middle class didn't recognize that he would be helping them).

 

I'm going to help and by helping you I'm going to help these other people that superficially appear to be adversaries is a very powerful argument if you can pull it off.)

[RedskinsFan44]

I don't know if Bill was so phony or fake compared to her, but if he was the media landscape and lack of Internet would definitely explain why he got away with it and she doesn't.

 

Bill is a consummate politician, very comfortable around people, loves to schmooze.  I've heard stories that he would not only remember peoples names he had met just once, but their kids names, interests, etc.  He may be just as much of a chameleon on political issues as Hillary and certainly has been known to lie, but he'd be way more fun to go out and have a beer with, and that's what we really want, right?

 

Also, every candidate running has shifted on issues with the possible exception of Cruz ( and maybe Sanders, but I seem to have heard some noise on him), and that doesn't exactly make him loveable.

 

[JMS]

Her lack of likeability in her own party is about her.

It's not just her lack of likability. It's her demonstrated ability to stand in front of folks and lie to their face which hurts her "likability". Common she's been in national politics for three decades has she ever ever referred to herself as a "progressive" before this election cycle? No. Did Bill once in his life refer to himself as a progressive? NO!... That hurts her likability when she runs as something she's not because she thinks it's politically to her benefit rather than run for who she is, who she will be.. Which is exactly what her husband did.

That's why the left doesn't like them.. (1) They aren't of the left. (2) They aren't trustworthy. (3) They nearly destroyed the party with their selfish and very public eruptions of immorality last time they were in power. (4) Hillary at least has a very public record of being more hawkish than even some republicans which is abhorrent to liberal democrats. (5) The Clintons have raised 3 billion dollars largely from special interests who seek changes to government regulation which the Clinton's have presided over. Most Liberal democrats have decided we need to start getting something for all the money we are spending in this economy and it just can't be the same old banquet for special interests which the clintons like to host.

[Burgold]

The irony of Bill Clinton is that Democrats did like him, but after 8 years of non stop witch hunts from White Water in year one to Monica towards the end, the public decided they wanted to get away from the "corruption" and embarrassment of the White House. G W Bush seemed a nice milquetoast alternative to slick Willy.

 

What really helped was that the nation was doing really well. People felt good and so overlooked all of Bush's failings. He was a terrible governor in Texas. His ideas were horrible. We eventually learned that personal affairs and scandals were far preferable to the kind of corruption and embarrassment W would bring to our doorsteps.

 

Interestingly, Trump is far slimier a person than Clinton... if anyone is slick!

[s0crates]

Despite the premature sounding of the death knells, Bernie's campaign is alive and well. There's been some good news today:

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/polls/270286-wv-poll-sanders-leads-clinton-nearly-2-to-1

WV poll: Sanders leads Clinton nearly 2-to-1

. . .

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/202372-democratic-progressive-caucus-of-florida-endorses-bernie-sanders

DEMOCRATIC PROGRESSIVE CAUCUS OF FLORIDA ENDORSES BERNIE SANDERS

. . .

http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/2016/02/bernie-sanders-picks-up-handful-of-texas-endorsements.html/

Bernie Sanders picks up handful of Texas endorsements

. . .

[Predicto]

The people the GOP mudslinging appeals to were never going to consider her likeable anyways.

Her lack of likeability in her own party is about her.

 

 

 

I think it has affected everyone across the spectrum, just to different degrees.    She was never going to be "likeable," that was a given. But the number of non-conservative people who freely say things like she is corrupt to the core or in the pocket of the plutocrats just the same as anyone in the GOP or that they just won't vote if she is the nominee even if she is up against Ted Cruz - that is the part that is astounding to me.    

 

Some of that is the Bernie or Nothing! crowd, of course.  The Democrats always have had to deal with that contingent.  That's the sentiment that had progressive people chanting "Hey Hey LBJ How Many Kids Did You Kill Today" and driving Lyndon Johnson out of office, completely forgetting that Johnson was the most progressive President in US history and if you blew up the Democratic Party right before an election the alternative was going to be President Richard Freaking Nixon.   I expect those people to hate Clinton.  

 

What I don't understand is moderates hating Clinton because she affects an accent or tailors her speeches to her audiences, or whatever.  She is smart, well informed and incredibly well experienced, and like it or not, she is the only moderate in the entire race on either side.  

 

So to the conservatives, she's Mrs. Che Guevara, and to the lefties she's Mrs. Koch Brothers, and to the moderates she's Mrs. Richard Nixon.   That's nonsense.  

[RedskinsFan44]

Common she's been in national politics for three decades has she ever ever referred to herself as a "progressive" before this election cycle? No.

Might want to watch this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2oOoCdFblc

 

Also, Sanders does seem to have been pretty consistent in his political stances:http://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/sanders-fights-off-flip-flop-charges-218211

 

[zoony]

 

 

What I don't understand is moderates hating Clinton because she affects an accent or tailors her speeches to her audiences, or whatever.  She is smart, well informed and incredibly well experienced, and like it or not, she is the only moderate in the entire race on either side.  

 

So to the conservatives, she's Mrs. Che Guevara, and to the lefties she's Mrs. Koch Brothers, and to the moderates she's Mrs. Richard Nixon.   That's nonsense.

What she is in my opinion is an incredibly bad politician. She has it all but charisma.

Did anyone see Colbert on Friday nights? His analysis of her 60 minutes interview was both hilarious and spot on. She's just not a good politician. And I think that matters

[Destino]

Zeke Miller @ZekeJMiller

 

BREAKING: Cruz: this morning I asked for Rick Tyler's resignation

 

CNN Breaking News @cnnbrk

Ted Cruz asks communications director to resign over inaccurate Marco Rubio video. cnn.it/1mTvyH1

Anyone watch Cruz's announcement that he asked for Tyler's resignation? He turned the announcement that his own campaign pulled yet another dishonest trick into an attack on Rubio that accusing Rubio of relying on distractions and tricks. Amazing stuff.

[The Evil Genius]

 

Evil Genius,  Stop buying the BS.   Criticizing Hillary shouldn't be equated with criticizing all women.    I know of no one criticizing Hilary because she has a vagina, and the only person making that case is hillary in the face of criticisms which has nothing to do with her VJJ.

 

 

So the answer is no, you cannot think of a likable female politician? I honestly cannot, and that bothers me (a bit). 

[Predicto]

What she is in my opinion is an incredibly bad politician. She has it all but charisma.

Did anyone see Colbert on Friday nights? His analysis of her 60 minutes interview was both hilarious and spot on. She's just not a good politician. And I think that matters

 

 

It does matter and Colbert is completely right.  She's a lousy campaigner and not a particularly pleasant person.  No one wants to have a beer with her. 

 

But the level of the vitriol against her seems to go so much further than that.   How could any moderate person think of Hillary as irredeemably "slimy" and "corrupt" in a race that has Donald Trump and Ted Cruz as the leading contenders on the other side?    The answer, in my opinion, is because the conservatives have been screaming that she is slimy and corrupt for the past 25 years, and it gradually sinks in even though the attacks themselves have been almost entirely bullcrap.    

[s0crates]

So to the conservatives, she's Mrs. Che Guevara, and to the lefties she's Mrs. Koch Brothers, and to the moderates she's Mrs. Richard Nixon. That's nonsense.

No she's not Mrs. Koch Brothers to "lefties."

But she is Mrs. Goldman Sachs, and Mrs. Citigroup, and Mrs. JP Morgan, and Mrs. Morgan Stanley, and Mrs. Lehman Brothers. It's not like we "lefties" are making this stuff up.

https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cid=N00000019&cycle=Career

And I'm supposed to believe she'll protect Main Street from Wall Street? That those millions of dollars Wall Street gives her don't buy anything? Please.

[visionary]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/02/tim-pawlenty-endorses-marco-rubio-219602?lo=ap_a1

Rubio racks up support from Republican lawmakers

 

Bolstered by a second-place finish in South Carolina and Jeb Bush's exit from the 2016 race, Marco Rubio picked up a host of endorsements from fellow Republican politicians over the last 48 hours, both currently serving and former.

 

Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch, a senior member of the Republican caucus, decided to endorse Rubio after previously backing Bush.

 

Former Kansas Sen. Bob Dole also switched from Bush to Rubio on Monday, telling ABC News that unlike Texas Sen. Ted Cruz, Rubio "wants to grow the party." Dole had previously said that he would support Rubio if the former governor of Florida was no longer in contention.

 

North Carolina Sen. Thom Tillis and Florida Rep. Gus Bilirakis also announced their backing of Rubio early Monday, the latest in a string of endorsements from his Republican congressional colleagues. "He has the unique capability of drawing new people into the party, which is critically important in a swing state like North Carolina," Tillis said in a statement released by the campaign.

 

Arizona Sen. Jeff Flake followed suit later in the afternoon, citing his former Gang of Eight colleague's "ideas," "principles" and "toughness" to reform Washington. Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson announced his support of Rubio on Monday afternoon, comparing him to Ronald Reagan.

 

Rubio also picked up the support of Nevada Sen. Dean Heller on Sunday ahead of Tuesday's caucuses in the state, along with Florida lawmakers Carlos Curbelo and Ileana Ros-Lehtinen.

 

Former Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty announced his endorsement of Marco Rubio on Monday morning, hailing the Florida senator as the best candidate to unite the party.

[Predicto]

So the answer is no, you cannot think of a likable female politician? I honestly cannot, and that bothers me (a bit). 

 

 

Well, there are plenty of studies that suggest that personal characteristics and actions, when held or taken by men, will be viewed as smart, tough, driven and assertive.  All positive things in a leader.  

 

When a women acts the exact same way, she will viewed as cold, beeeetchy and unpleasant, and as a bad leader.   

 

Ask any high level woman executive how it works.

[nonniey]

When will they ever attack Trump

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/02/22/oh-by-the-way-just-four-percent-of-all-gop-super-pac-spending-has-targeted-trump/

 

Just four percent of all Super PAC spending has targeted Trump

\

When? Once he wins the nomination. Then Dems and the media will destroy him.

[Burgold]

What she is in my opinion is an incredibly bad politician. She has it all but charisma.

Did anyone see Colbert on Friday nights? His analysis of her 60 minutes interview was both hilarious and spot on. She's just not a good politician. And I think that matters

I think she's a pretty good politician, but an incredibly bad campaigner.