HTTR24-7; Film Sessions: Hitting The Quarterback To Stop The Read-Option Is Stupid

[Lavarleap56]

I still can't disagree with you more, LL, and NLC.

 

What are you supposed to do with the backside DE? No matter what he does, he's out of the play. May as well have him crash and try to get to the mesh point. The problem is, you guys seem to think it's a end all be all, even throwing around words like "dumb" and "stupid". You're entitled to your opinion, and I respect you both.

 

But the strategy is one that could help to slow the offense. Stop it? No. Do I sell out on the QB? No. Do I sell out on Morris? No. I try to play sound defense.

 

The more that an offense is on the field, the greater the probability of them making a mistake. Yes, the defense will get tired. But when you are doing your job and limiting the gashing, the confidence doesn't get taken out of the sails like it does when an offense is running the ball down your throat for fun. It may result in the same basic yardage, but it's how it happens that is disheartening to a defense. When you are limiting an explosive offense to small chunks, confidence stays high and they start looking for mistakes.

 

You can send a blocker to the backside DE, but that's committing another one of the offenses resources to blocking the defense. And, quite honestly, that can benefit either side.

 

Ideally, I'd like a defense full of smart, elite talent where I could sit still and defend the read option without thinking about it. But it's an unrealistic stance to take.

 

Stopping the read option comes down to either trying to consistently hit the QB (legally) or confusing the QBs reads. Stunts, blitzes and the backside DE crashing  the QB are all ways to help to slow the offense. You could even have the DE come down the LOS to attack the RB and have another overhang defender take the DEs place. These are all ways to help SLOW the read option. Not stop it.

 

The playside of the read option is a major threat, always will be. Only thing you can do is play fundamentally sound football and try to force a mistake, or shut down running lanes which is about 100% easier said than done.

 

Discipline is a major part of slowing the read option. But there has to be a strategy, and sitting back COMPLETELY, to me, is a mistake. Don't let them get clear reads and time to think about the read. Force them to make choices quickly.

 

I don't believe I said it was dumb or stupid... 

 

Skins beat this strategy all year so why will it be any different this season? Kyle hasn't been sitting on his hands all offseason. There are ways to slow down the RO but I strongly disagree with the media pushing that " De/Olb hitting the QB" will stop the RO. It's just not that easy.

[Lavarleap56]

 

LL: You cannot legally T off on the QB in the zone read.. The rules are basically the same as if he were a passer. Defender needs to get there while the QB has the ball at the mesh point. Easy to say but hard to do vs the Redskins.

 

If those are the rules, the rules are unfair to the defense. The purpose of the fake is to fool defenders. But those rules would penalize a defender who is fooled into thinking that the QB kept the ball.

 Those are the rules.

[Oldfan]

ZRagone: The problem isn't even the notion of "hitting the quaterback" being stupid....The problem is the QUESTION is stupid...It shouldn't be "How do you stop the read option." 

It should be "How do we handle and limit the read option."

 

I could be wrong, but when people talk about stopping any offensive scheme, I don't take that to mean "How do you stop it completely." I think they mean how can you limit its effectiveness to the point that it is a losing strategy.

[KDawg]

You didn't say that, LL, but NLC did.

 

I also don't know how well defenses defended the 'Skins, particularly earlier in the year. We'll see how they do it this year, but there is no real "good" strategy to limit the read option, which is why I take issue with people who throw around words like "dumb" or "stupid". Slowing it is a task, no matter the strategy.

 

And to be quite honest, different teams are going to utilize different strategies according to the personnel they have. While attacking the mesh may be a sound strategy for one defense, the next defense may not be able to use that strategy.

[Mahons21]

 

 

LL: You cannot legally T off on the QB in the zone read.. The rules are basically the same as if he were a passer. Defender needs to get there while the QB has the ball at the mesh point. Easy to say but hard to do vs the Redskins.

 

If those are the rules, the rules are unfair to the defense. The purpose of the fake is to fool defenders. But those rules would penalize a defender who is fooled into thinking that the QB kept the ball.

 Those are the rules.

 

Those are the rules so long as the QB has his hands up and the defensive player has ample opportunity to adjust.  If the QB carries out his fake and acts like he's going to rush the ball he's fair game.

[SpacePenguin]

 

 

LL: You cannot legally T off on the QB in the zone read.. The rules are basically the same as if he were a passer. Defender needs to get there while the QB has the ball at the mesh point. Easy to say but hard to do vs the Redskins.

 

If those are the rules, the rules are unfair to the defense. The purpose of the fake is to fool defenders. But those rules would penalize a defender who is fooled into thinking that the QB kept the ball.

 Those are the rules.

I have to agree, the rules are pretty unfair to the defense....but not any more so than the "defenseless receiver" rule.

In recent years, there has been a noticeable push to rachet up the offense while handcuffing the defense, regrettably.

[RG3Hunna]

 

 

 

 

LL: You cannot legally T off on the QB in the zone read.. The rules are basically the same as if he were a passer. Defender needs to get there while the QB has the ball at the mesh point. Easy to say but hard to do vs the Redskins.

 

If those are the rules, the rules are unfair to the defense. The purpose of the fake is to fool defenders. But those rules would penalize a defender who is fooled into thinking that the QB kept the ball.

 Those are the rules.

I have to agree, the rules are pretty unfair to the defense....but not any more so than the "defenseless receiver" rule.

In recent years, there has been a noticeable push to rachet up the offense while handcuffing the defense, regrettably.

That's what keeps the younger generation watching. They want to see high scoring football unfortunately, so they have to tailor the rules to make sure that's possible. The unfortunate result is this has turned this league in to a passing league. 

[Oldfan]

Mahons:Those are the rules so long as the QB has his hands up and the defensive player has ample opportunity to adjust.  If the QB carries out his fake and acts like he's going to rush the ball he's fair game.

 

Now that would be what I would expect. That's fair.

[DaGoonie55]

Great write up NLC. The football knowledge in here never disappoints. Limiting the RO takes a team with some athletic freaks. You have to contain the QB, then collapse on the RB, OR stop the pass to any number of routes. {edit" which is a LOT to ask of mediocre to good talent} I don't think I've seen this consistently done yet. Maybe this year someone comes up with a viable strategy, but you need some freakish defenders to conteract the talent on the offense. Here's hoping noone gets it for 5 more years.

[RandyHolt]

I am with NoCalMike

 

Instead of sprinting into the backfield and getting burned over and over trying to get a shot on 3, I would run more of a read or base defense. When 3 and Morris have their mid play meeting. wait them out. If the play is to read the DE/OLB, give a neutral look. If sprinting into the backfield is not productive, just don't do it. Contain RGIII, don't try to hit him. 

 

FWIW I have been hoping our D would get after QBs hit them rattle them a bit. I am sure players all want to hit the QB but its the DC that decides if they will get a chance.I think DCs will not be able to stop the RO by hitting 3.  Its not just Williams, many a DC want players to hit QBs at every chance.

[ZRagone]

 

ZRagone: The problem isn't even the notion of "hitting the quaterback" being stupid....The problem is the QUESTION is stupid...It shouldn't be "How do you stop the read option." 

It should be "How do we handle and limit the read option."

 

I could be wrong, but when people talk about stopping any offensive scheme, I don't take that to mean "How do you stop it completely." I think they mean how can you limit its effectiveness to the point that it is a losing strategy.

 

Which essentially is that last meaning I spoke about and brings us back to the notion that "Stopping" the read option is going to be no easier than "stopping" the basic theory behind other good NFL offenses. They'll find ways to potentially TRY and limit the effectiveness, which I doubt will come down to "hit the QB a lot" in terms of the ones that are most effective, but ultimately if an offense is efficient and talented then it's still going to put up it's numbers.

 

I don't think there's some magical kryptonite to the notion of the Read-Option base philosophy OR the Pistol set that we use. I don't think the league is going to be able to figure out how to STOP it any better than they've figured out how to stop other top offenses like the Patriots, Packers, Saints, or Broncos. They may find ways to hinder it, but I think few teams will find ways to limit it's effectiveness to the point that it's a losing strategy because ultimately it's not a "gadget" type of thing that can be schemed against in one particular way to take advantage of it's weaknesses to a point where it's basically a net negative to run.

[Oldfan]

ZRagone,

 

The read-option is unlike the offenses run by the Patriots, Packers, Saints or Broncos in two ways. First, those schemes don't put a QB at risk by having him run much. And, they are not dependent on one concept. They are sort of a modular collection of elements most of which have a good track record in the NFL. . Some elements go back to Sid Gillman, Bill Walsh and Mouse Davis. The Shotgun traces back to Pop Warner. Parts that stop working well can be replaced

 

Defenses can work on punishing the read-option QB and on defensive adjustments at the same time. That's what our own devious coach KDawg was up to earlier in this thread. 

 

I think the Pistol will have a long life, but I'd bet against the read-option having a long and prosperous  NFL life.

[Mocountyskins]

Don't get me wrong..I don't want RG3 to get hit and I don't think that "hitting the qb" will stop a certain system. But, I did play ball in HS and I do help coach a HS team now. I can say that if you hit someone hard, and I'm not talking about just hitting them I'm talking about hitting them so good that they will never forget that moment then they will think twice what they are doing and sometimes it results in timing being thrown off on a pitch to the outside and results in a fumble or a bad handoff.

 

I think some people are looking a little too much into the mechanics. You hit some one real real real hard and they get nervous and make mistakes. But lucky for us rg3 is too fast to get hit 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

If I was scheming against us early in the season, the guy I would want to take away is Alfred Morris.  I would dare RG3 to run the keeper, and I would try to keep 46 in check.

 

I hope like hell RG3 is 100 percent just like last year, but I would certainly make him prove it.

[skinny21]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if the end goes straight at Griffin, he has the potential to affect 2 of the three element to the read option. If he goes for Morris than he's potentially affecting only one element. Simplistic, I know, but I know what I'm choosing as a DC.

Of course you run the risk of Griffin following the dive play, particularly if a blocker (Logan or Young) gets to the end. Beggars can't be choosers I guess

[Rufus T Firefly]

 

KDawg: I love the read option and stopping it is a difficult task, but slowing it by making it one dimensional and focusing on the run from the back can certainly even the playing field.

 

Agreed. When executed properly, the read-option works regardless of what the edge-rusher does. So, the worst thing he can do is to stand there and squeeze his jock. So, have him take away the QB option which allows his defensive teammates to know what's coming.

It doesn't matter. In a running play, either the QB or RB is running around the end. Knowing which one doesn't really help. The issue remains figuring out which side it's going to do and then how to get there before the runner has broken free, which the blocking scheme makes very difficult.

 

This strategy doesn't affect pass plays at all, because the blocking scheme changes and there is no unblocked End to "just hit the QB".

 

You guys would know that if you weren't so stupid. (damn, where the hell's my wink smile?)

[MartinC]

 

LL: You cannot legally T off on the QB in the zone read.. The rules are basically the same as if he were a passer. Defender needs to get there while the QB has the ball at the mesh point. Easy to say but hard to do vs the Redskins.

 

If those are the rules, the rules are unfair to the defense. The purpose of the fake is to fool defenders. But those rules would penalize a defender who is fooled into thinking that the QB kept the ball.

But its always been that way - when have you ever seen a QB carrying out a fake bootleg after handing off to a RB on a stretch play or sweep to the opposite side get blown up? If a defender did take a shot at a QB in those circumstances there would be a flag and in the current climate almost certainly a big fine for the defender. On the zone read its the same deal plus the rules specifically protect him.

 

Here is a paper from Chip Kelly on the Oregon zone read option game. Its a great read. Its written from an offensive perspective so its not addressing the point of this thread specifically but I would direct you to para 3 on page 146 - "we want the ball in the running backs hands. We want the QB to give the ball unless he cannot".  

 

http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/pdfdocs/oregonruns.pdf

 

If you crash your edge defender on my QB every time I show you read option I am going to be happy. I play the numbers and inside zone you to death with a numerical advantage on my blockers versus your defenders. I am going to be able to run the ball and you are going to have to adjust to stop the bleeding. If you still want to give me pressure you may switch to some inside blitzes and twists - then I switch to an outside zone.

 

This is without even thinking about the pass options you could build in based on how the defense plays the look.

 

In doing all this I only want my QB carrying the ball if you take away the handoff by crashing down on my RB and thus no one should be hitting the QB if he learns to slide when he needs to. If you crash on my QB he hands off and you cant hit him legally.

 

Its going to be fascinating watching how defenses adjust to what we did last year and what Mike and Kyle have in store for them as developments from last years offense and adjustments based on how defenses react. Read option will be a part of that offense (though what looks like read option but is just window dressing might be more) but I think we will see a lot less runs from RGIII and more pass options built into package plays not just run options.

[KDawg]

No one has said to crash your edge defender every time on the QB, Martin. Furthermore, it's easy to say you'll switch from inside zone, to power, to outside zone, but you don't know what defensive play calls are coming ahead of time.. NFL defenses are very good at sugaring their looks.

You can come up with all of these counters, and so can I. But with XandOball, the guy who talks last always wins.

Rufus,

It does affect the pass. Play action passes are meant to look like their run counterparts, so blocking schemes are somewhat similar. The Skins will use their arc release with Young on occasion to at least slow the path of the end, but they are similar plays in structure.

There is variation to be sure, but my intent would be to take away as much as I can. I want my rush end to attack the midline of the quarterback to keep him in range, however, his actual job would be to try to get to the mesh point. Take away as much as you can as a defense.

Allow the rest of the D to play the other options. Again, you're not going to stop it against a good offense, but you can slow it. And small chunks are better than large gashes. And the more plays you run, the more the probability rises that you turn the ball over.

[RG3Hunna]

ZRagone,

 

The read-option is unlike the offenses run by the Patriots, Packers, Saints or Broncos in two ways. First, those schemes don't put a QB at risk by having him run much. And, they are not dependent on one concept. They are sort of a modular collection of elements most of which have a good track record in the NFL. . Some elements go back to Sid Gillman, Bill Walsh and Mouse Davis. The Shotgun traces back to Pop Warner. Parts that stop working well can be replaced

 

Defenses can work on punishing the read-option QB and on defensive adjustments at the same time. That's what our own devious coach KDawg was up to earlier in this thread. 

 

I think the Pistol will have a long life, but I'd bet against the read-option having a long and prosperous  NFL life.

Russell Wilson runs the read option he hasn't taken a huge hit at all, he always slides before contact ever gets to him. I think the read will stick around in a very limited role like we see today. 

[MartinC]

No one has said to crash your edge defender every time on the QB, Martin. Furthermore, it's easy to say you'll switch from inside zone, to power, to outside zone, but you don't know what defensive play calls are coming ahead of time.. NFL defenses are very good at sugaring their looks.

You can come up with all of these counters, and so can I. But with XandOball, the guy who talks last always wins.

Rufus,

It does affect the pass. Play action passes are meant to look like their run counterparts, so blocking schemes are somewhat similar. The Skins will use their arc release with Young on occasion to at least slow the path of the end, but they are similar plays in structure.

There is variation to be sure, but my intent would be to take away as much as I can. I want my rush end to attack the midline of the quarterback to keep him in range, however, his actual job would be to try to get to the mesh point. Take away as much as you can as a defense.

Allow the rest of the D to play the other options. Again, you're not going to stop it against a good offense, but you can slow it. And small chunks are better than large gashes. And the more plays you run, the more the probability rises that you turn the ball over.

OK fair cop saying you crash your end every play was hyperbole but this is in the context of a thread about hitting the QB with the edge defender as a way to reduce the effectiveness of the read option. The point of my post was that while sending your edge defender at the QB at the mesh point is certainly better than have him stand frozen and doing nothing its actually also playing into the design of the whole read option concept (assuming like Chip Kelly you WANT your RB to carry the ball which I certainly would).

 

The switch to outside zone was just an example of what an offense could do as a reaction to a defense switching pressure from the outside to inside as a change up and could be done by the QB as an audible based on a pre snap read similar to a blitz audible in the passing game. Totally agree though its an X's and O's battle of wits - but so is all of football and thats why I love it 

[KDawg]

Agreed with the audible thing, but that's why I said NFL defenses can sugar their intent

I think the overall premise that anyone would just send their overhang player at the QB repeatedly is false. I don't know of one intelligent football mind that would keep doing the same thing over and over again without any kind of variation. It's essentially asking to get your butt kicked.

That would be my primary strategy at the start of the game, but I'd have other ideas in my back pocket. And I'd be armed with tendency information to help figure out what places you're likely to run it. You can bet I'd be armed with secondary and tertiary plans... And more.

[Oldfan]

Martin: But its always been that way - when have you ever seen a QB carrying out a fake bootleg after handing off to a RB on a stretch play or sweep to the opposite side get blown up? 

 

It isn't the rules that prevent the QB from being hit on a stretch play. There are no defenders rendered otherwise useless on a stretch play as there are on a well-executed read-option. So, defenders  will go for the ball carrier.

 

 ...I would direct you to para 3 on page 146 - "we want the ball in the running backs hands. We want the QB to give the ball unless he cannot".

 

I understand why Kelly wants that. I don't understand what point you are making. If the NFL edge-rusher was in a position to consistently stop the RB, that would be a good option, but he's not. He has a better shot at the QB who has no momentum going for him at the mesh point.

 

If you crash your edge defender on my QB every time I show you read option I am going to be happy. I play the numbers and inside zone you to death with a numerical advantage on my blockers versus your defenders.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "show me the read-option." If you run the read-option, your QB can't block and my edge-rusher sent after the QB can't tackle the RB. How do you get a numerical advantage? What you have is 10 on 10.

 

This is without even thinking about the pass options you could build in based on how the defense plays the look

 

Your QB has taken the time to fake the option. My edge-rusher has his ears pinned back rushing the QB. How does this work to your advantage for the passing options?

 

If you crash on my QB he hands off and you cant hit him legally.

 

I don't believe that. Robert was quoted telling us that the ref reminded him to put his hands up to show defenders that he didn't have the ball. Why would the ref do that if the defender was going to be penalized regardless of the timing on the fake? 

[Oldfan]

KDawg: ...And the more plays you run, the more the probability rises that you turn the ball over. 

 

Nah. You are considering only one factor of a two-factor math problem. The other factor is the success rate of the plays used. Deep passes have a low success rate and are picked more often; short passes have a much higher success rate and are not so easily intercepted.

[MartinC]

 

Martin: But its always been that way - when have you ever seen a QB carrying out a fake bootleg after handing off to a RB on a stretch play or sweep to the opposite side get blown up? 

 

It isn't the rules that prevent the QB from being hit on a stretch play. There are no defenders rendered otherwise useless on a stretch play as there are on a well-executed read-option. So, they will go for the tackle.

Normally the backside edge defender has contain on the QB boot - he does not normally crash on the ball carrier and if he does then you start to let the QB keep it and get to the edge with some kind of run/pass option. Point is that that backside DE or Linebacker never slams the QB carrying out the fake.

 

 

 ...I would direct you to para 3 on page 146 - "we want the ball in the running backs hands. We want the QB to give the ball unless he cannot".

 

I understand why Kelly wants that. I don't understand what point you are making. If the NFL edge-rusher was in a position to consistently stop the RB, that would be a good option, but he's not. He has a better shot at the QB who has no momentum going for him at the mesh point.

What I am saying is that if you have your edge rusher focus on the QB in an attempt to hit him which is the premise of the article in the OP the end result is the offence gets what it wants - the QB handing the ball off to the running back and your edge defender out of the play. 

 

 

If you crash your edge defender on my QB every time I show you read option I am going to be happy. I play the numbers and inside zone you to death with a numerical advantage on my blockers versus your defenders.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "show me the read-option." If you run the read-option, your QB can't block and my edge-rusher sent after the QB can't tackle the RB. How do you get a numerical advantage? What you have is 10 on 10.

In a 'normal' running play the defence does not account for the QB (at least not play side) so I have 9 guys trying to block 11. With your edge rusher committed to the QB in a read option look now I have 9 guys trying to block 10. I should have been clearer - its a comparative numerical advantage versus a traditional NFL style running play.

 

By show you read option I mean set up in the pistol with a back or backs aligned in a situation you have seen me run read option on film. I'm going to give you keys that tell your edge rusher its a read option - sometimes it may be but sometimes it might not. A lot of the time we showed read option looks last year we either had pre called play action or ran regular inside or outside zone runs with no read option element.

 

 

 

This is without even thinking about the pass options you could build in based on how the defense plays the look

 

Your QB has taken the time to fake the option. My edge-rusher has his ears pinned back rushing the QB. How does this work to your advantage for the passing options?

 

Bubble screen to play side is one obvious example and one of the staples of most read option teams. You could also run a quick slant from a receiver with a close split into the area where the edge rusher is coming from. Your going to have to have a really fast rusher to get to the QB before he gets the ball out of his hands on something quick like that against a QB with quick release RGIII has.

 

 

 

If you crash on my QB he hands off and you cant hit him legally.

 

I don't believe that. Robert was quoted telling us that the ref reminded him to put his hands up to show defenders that he didn't have the ball. Why would the ref do that if the defender was going to be penalized regardless of the timing on the fake? 

I think thats just how the refs are determining that the QB is 'out of the play' and therefore cannot legally be hit without a personal foul being assessed. Its that definition of when the QB is out of the play after the handoff which is key here I think. I would think the refs will use a similar rule of thumb to the roughing the passer definition of if the defender takes more than a couple of steps after the handoff to hit the QB they are going to throw the flag.

[Warpath11]

Like others have said the idea of sedning your edge defender hard at the mesh point is a sounds strategy and that is why you are seeing athletes like Dion Jordan, Barkevius Mingo and Jadeveon Clowney coming up.  Without a blocker to deal with those guys can get to that mesh point awful quick.  For example if I had Clowney, an explosive athlete running a 4.7, as my DE or OLB unblocked id bet on him getting to the mesh point and blowing it up before the QB had the ball out of the RBs belly.

 

This is not against the read option but man if unblocked Clowney gets there FAST!! If this was a read option and he was left unblocked the mesh point would have been destroyed and the result would have been the same. 

 

Having said that these athletes are not too abundant at the moment so like Oldfan said the RO will eventually die out, however not just yet.