Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, PeterMP said: The other thing about trading for Wall is then Green really becomes useless. If you trade for Wall, then you have a point forward that can't shoot that doesn't have the ball in their hands. You trade Durant, and you've lost your best interior defender who is also a good perimeter defender, and you've taken Green and made him useless. If they made that trade, their best lineup actually become Wall, Curry, Thompson, Cousins, and Looney. I'm actually not sure that's a championship starting 5. If GSW's owners came to me and said, we demand you make a trade right now, I honestly think the last thing I would be looking for is a ball-dominant PG. Like, I don't think I would want Harden. If I lost the screaming match and was told I either traded Durant or be fired, the first thing I would want is a stretch 4 or stretch 5 of some quality so I could keep playing the way we do. I would probably want some picks. And I would want to bolster my bench, probably with a guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Or it could be a breaking down Steph Curry and a bunch of bad money tied into aging and declining players like Iggy and Green is not that appealing a destination after all. It could be that an MVP caliber Kristaps Porzingis, Joel Embiid, Ben Simmons, or Karl Anthony Towns are bigger draws. Or a Giannis Antetokounpo or Anthony Davis coming off back to back MVPs are the biggest draw. Or Damian Lillard or any number of younger players who are coming into their own are legit competition for potential free agents. Wait. Are you talking free agent draw or box office draw? I thought you meant box office draw. Also, I think there's a decent chance that at least 4 and maybe 5 of those 6 guys are on a different team in 4 years. I will never understand your weird NBA perspectives/obsessions.. You have GSW a basketball wasteland in 2020 while the Knicks, Bucks, and Wolves are apparently thriving. I feel like you should be spending a lot more time gloating over Boston's problems rather than trading away Kevin Durant for reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 14 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said: Thirdly, you've never explained how Wall fits in from a basketball perspective. I assume he handles the ball and Curry and Thompson just endlessly run through screens. I don't get why you want a guy who needs the ball 70 percent of the team to be effective when you already have the best guard combo in NBA history. And you need to develop this in-season. John is a great player. And an unselfish one. He's been toiling away carrying ****ty teams for years. He's never played with someone as good as Klay Thompson or Boogie Cousins before, much less someone better than him like Curry. He's never played for a real coach. He's never played in a real offense. He's never played with a defensive player like Draymond Green. I think a lot of times people think that great players who carry the kind of offensive load that John does can't play significantly smaller and more narrow roles even though there is no chance they could ever do that on their current teams. Nevermind that James Harden was a sixth man in OKC and that LeBron and Wade won two championships playing together. John could absolutely play in a back court with Steph Curry. He can easily defend two guards and bigger PGs and they could still hide Curry on that side and Curry could still be their primary ball handler and shot creator. Klay Thompson is 6'7 and strong, he could easily defend 3s and he's an off ball specialist. Do you really think the greatest small ball team in the history of the sport would struggle to run a three guard line up? Iggy's not a shooter, he's a ball handler, passer, finisher, break runner, and defender. John Wall could easily be an extremely rich man's version of that. And John has a decent three ball off the catch, it's off the dribble threes he can't shoot. You can park him in a corner and keep the floor spaced and have a devastatingly good secondary ball handler that excels at spoon feeding pick and rolls to bigs and open threes for perimeter shooters. Getting Wall instead of having Durant walk for nothing would be an elegant ****ing way out of that conundrum. But again, it's not going to happen. The Warriors are going to try everything in their power to keep Durant. The Wizards wouldn't trade Wall for an expiring with no long term return. And I'm pretty sure Durant has a say in whether the Warriors can trade him, and there is no way he'd agree to being traded to DC. Someone like Wall would not be crazy for GS at all. You slightly lessen your chances to win this year (when no team in the West really looks ready to challenge them and the East teams are too young/shaky) but in doing so, you gain long term security and contention. Kyrie Irving + ballast. Why not that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 10 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Kyrie Irving + ballast. Why not that? For Durant? Again, I'm getting a weird combo guard thing who likes dribbling and not playing defense. If I'm GSW, I still think I'm keeping Durant. I can offer him the most money and damn near guaranteed titles and access to everything that San Francisco and Silicon Valley have to offer. Be honest, in your fantasy GM hat, are you thrilled with the idea of owing John Wall $47 million in 2023? He's on the books longer than Curry at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 14 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said: I feel like you should be spending a lot more time gloating over Boston's problems rather than trading away Kevin Durant for reasons. See, you always thought my Boston takes were sourced in irrational hate, but they aren't. I was wrong about Tatum, he was the real gem of that top three and I like their future with him and Jaylen Brown. The caveat in my Boston pessimism was always: ... unless their lottery tickets with Tatum and Brown pan out, their upside isn't going to be good enough to justify the decisions Ainge made. Well, Tatum and Brown are panning out. Those are proving to be the best picks Boston could have made, and I have a lot of faith in Brad Stevens. They play great defense, which is the foundation for excellence. I think they're going to figure it out and become a Spursian organization that is always in the championship mix, if not necessarily ever the favorite. I do think I still was right that their upside doesn't match some of the other young teams who are led by bigger stars, but there floor is also higher than most. They're going to reach that upside. And I do think I was right that having all of that cap space and all of those premium picks and coming away with Kyrie Irving, Al Horford, and Gordon Hayward is pretty disappointing considering all of the star players that have changed teams within the last three years. The Kyrie Irving extension is potentially a very tricky situation. They can't let him walk for nothing, but it could come back to haunt them. The Gordon Hayward contract wasn't great, but the worst case scenario played out. And Horford's deal has gone pretty much as expected and it will be over soon enough for them to keep their young guys and go after premier free agents again. They need to deal that Sacramento pick ASAP, before people start figuring out it's not that good any more. I can't believe it, but that Kings team is actually pretty good. Point being, Boston's future is still wide open and none of their challenges are insurmountable and they have a better foundation than the big majority of teams. That's why I'm not crowing about their slow start. I think they're going to be good. But they're going to need to be patient for Brown and Tatum to develop. They're NBA babies who are four or five years from reaching their prime, and Boston's expectations were unrealistically inflated by last year's success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said: For Durant? Again, I'm getting a weird combo guard thing who likes dribbling and not playing defense. If I'm GSW, I still think I'm keeping Durant. I can offer him the most money and damn near guaranteed titles and access to everything that San Francisco and Silicon Valley have to offer. Be honest, in your fantasy GM hat, are you thrilled with the idea of owing John Wall $47 million in 2023? He's on the books longer than Curry at this point. We're predicating this scenario on GS believing that Durant will walk. That's a determination they're going to have to make for themselves. If they think he's walking, then they have to act IMO. And if so, what's out there that is better for them than someone like Kyrie? - I think Durant has a say in being traded. Boston was one of the teams he almost signed with before he picked Golden State. They might have even been #2. It's one of the few teams where they could probably get Durant on board with a trade. - Kyrie Irving wants to stay in Boston, but he wouldn't be able to re-sign there in the offseason because of their cap situation if he were traded to GS. Instead his best financial option would be signing a five year max with GS, who could offer that because of getting his Bird Rights via trade. In basketball terms, it'd be his easiest path to winning more rings. He also seems to be friendly with Curry. GS would have a great chance at keeping him IMO. You can make a deal like that with confidence that you can get an extension done. - The basketball fit is a little awkward because your backcourt D might be weak. But the offense could be so good. Kyrie demonstrated an ability to sidekick LeBron to a championship and Curry is a better off ball player. They could make it work. If they have the best offense in the NBA, then you only need like a 9th or 10th ranked defense to be the favorite to win the championship. Re: John's contract, I think it depends on whose paying him. To someone like Golden State, it wouldn't worry me at all. They're making so much money that they can pay any luxury tax bill and their window is now. It won't matter if they have cap space when John and Curry and Klay are getting old. That's the end of the line for them no matter what. To someone like Milwaukee, New Orleans, or Minnesota who already has the first piece under long term control and is trying to get that second one and doesn't have a lot of cap flexibility and isn't a traditional FA draw, I care way more about how many years I can control him than how much it costs. That's the advantage of having a guy locked up long term. This is the natural trade partner for the Wizards, because I'd be willing to give up picks to get John. He makes a lot of sense for the Knicks and Lakers too, maybe even the Pistons, but I really friggin hope they don't get him. For someone like Miami, I don't see the point. He'd help them sell tickets but they won't have the cap space to get a second star and he's not good enough to carry them to a top seed on his own. It'd just be a better coached and managed version of what happened in DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 All I said was trade Wall. Not that GS would want or need him. Fit makes zero sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 (edited) 50 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: John is a great player. And an unselfish one. He's been toiling away carrying ****ty teams for years. He's never played with someone as good as Klay Thompson or Boogie Cousins before, much less someone better than him like Curry. He's never played for a real coach. He's never played in a real offense. He's never played with a defensive player like Draymond Green. I think a lot of times people think that great players who carry the kind of offensive load that John does can't play significantly smaller and more narrow roles even though there is no chance they could ever do that on their current teams. Nevermind that James Harden was a sixth man in OKC and that LeBron and Wade won two championships playing together. It happens in some cases, but there are many more cases where it doesn't happen. There are plenty of ball dominant players that have had chances to move to somewhere else and play off the ball that have failed. I'm not sure Wall could or couldn't do it, but to insist that he could simply because some other people have been able to while ignoring the cases where it didn't work in history is bad. From there, you have issues, GS doesn't want a player that they can park in the corner. They want a player that moves and cuts off the ball. (and Lebron and Wade are a particularly bad example as they were best friends that decided to get together voluntarily and even then everybody essentially admits that, while they did win together, from a basketball stand point it was never an ideal pairing. The Harden example is also a bit of a stretch because of the order of events going from a 6th man to the main man vs. going from the main man to just a piece and Harden always played in offense without a lot of movement. Wall's played his whole career as a ball dominant player. Cutting and moving off ball are a skill and art and to assert somebody that's played a whole career without doing much of it is now going to become good at it is ridiculous. I also think you are delusional as to what Wall is now. Once upon a time, he might have been able to play the best 2 guards in the league, but he can't now. John Wall is not the player he was 3 years ago, and he's never going to be that player again. Wall isn't in the prime of his career. He's on the down hill slope His lateral speed is way down (which is why you see people blowing by him on fast breaks while he's stationary and waiving at them, and I'll bet his forward speed goes next). (And I'd bet on a pretty continued rapid decent.).) Edited November 20, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 at the direction of his attorney? how bad is this about to get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 steve has gone off the deep end. The Warriors aren't trading for Wall LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Just now, Warhead36 said: steve has gone off the deep end. The Warriors aren't trading for Wall LOL. this is what grunfeld does to people its pure evil I say 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 (edited) I love McQueen. I don’t agree with this at all but somehow this still makes more sense than his 3pt dunk idea Edited November 20, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 "IT STARTS AT THE TOP" Unofficial Motto of the Revolution, might have something here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 @stevemcqueen1 I'm with you on your defense of Wall, can't make sense of Warriors trading for him. One thing I'll add is that he did have a stress fracture early in his career, and had at least procedures on his knees. I'll defend him until I'm dead in the ground, but I would understand why someone would not want to trade for that. As you said, we're better off keeping him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 This thread needs G.A.C.O.L.B/BornASkinsFan right about now. Someone for McQueen to bounce the crazy off of and find his equilibrium. McQueens clear state of shock melded with Gac's Grunfeld assassination plot would produce a healthy amount of clarity/focus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 5 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said: If GSW's owners came to me and said, we demand you make a trade right now, I honestly think the last thing I would be looking for is a ball-dominant PG. Like, I don't think I would want Harden. That is crazy. You are making this harder than it really is. James Harden, same age as Curry, one of the five best players in the league, locked up long term. If Houston would be dumb enough to make that swap you would do it without thinking about it for a second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 When Durant walks to some dumb team like the Knicks, and the Warriors decay into a noncontender, don't say you guys weren't told that this was going to happen. Golden State is going to sell out to try and keep Durant. They're going to win another ring this year. He's going to walk. Their culture is going to be wrecked. Their key players are going to be aging. And they're going to have left like three rings on the table because they stopped being bold and refused to deal with their reality before it dealt with them. The cracks are there in the foundation. Draymond Green is crazy and unprofessional. He is not constitutionally capable of hiding the truth. Calling Durant a **** and telling him they didn't need him any more aired their dirty laundry for us to see. This thing is coming to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: When Durant walks to some dumb team like the Knicks, and the Warriors decay into a noncontender, don't say you guys weren't told that this was going to happen. Golden State is going to sell out to try and keep Durant. They're going to win another ring this year. He's going to walk. Their culture is going to be wrecked. Their key players are going to be aging. And they're going to have left like three rings on the table because they stopped being bold and refused to deal with their reality before it dealt with them. The cracks are there in the foundation. Draymond Green is crazy and unprofessional. He is not constitutionally capable of hiding the truth. Calling Durant a **** and telling him they didn't need him any more aired their dirty laundry for us to see. This thing is coming to an end. This all true, but that doesn't mean them trading for Wall makes sense. That's my dude, but if they need anyone to replace losing Durant its someone else that can hit threes, which is not Wall's m.o. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: When Durant walks to some dumb team like the Knicks, and the Warriors decay into a noncontender, don't say you guys weren't told that this was going to happen. Golden State is going to sell out to try and keep Durant. They're going to win another ring this year. He's going to walk. Their culture is going to be wrecked. Their key players are going to be aging. And they're going to have left like three rings on the table because they stopped being bold and refused to deal with their reality before it dealt with them. The cracks are there in the foundation. Draymond Green is crazy and unprofessional. He is not constitutionally capable of hiding the truth. Calling Durant a **** and telling him they didn't need him any more aired their dirty laundry for us to see. This thing is coming to an end. There's no doubt that if Durant walks, they have problems. I've even said this year, I think they're vulnerable if they go into the finals with some injury issues (and to back that up look at what has happened with Curry out). The problem is that Wall doesn't really make the situation better. They are much more likely to win a championship this year with Durant than with Wall. From there, while it is possible that Durant will walk, it is also possible he'll stay, and if he stays, then each year he stays they are much more likely to win a championship with Durant than with Wall. You MIGHT extend the window for them some by making that trade, but for each year that Durant is there instead of Wall, you've drastically decreased the odds of them winning a championship. Durant is a top 5 player in the NBA at a position where Golden State is weak. When John Wall was at his best, he was never a top 5 player and certainly isn't now. You can't take away a top 5 player on a team at a position where the team is weak and add a much lesser player at a position where they aren't weak and pretend that they have the same chance of winning a championship (which is what you are doing). Edited November 21, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Even without Durant they're still a championship contender. They just won't have an easy steamroll path anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 The writing has been on the wall. He'll go down as one of the worst #1/#1s in league history. Especially since Philly moved up to get him. It's like he had his talent stolen. The decision to fire Hinkie and give Bryan Colangelo the job was a costly one. Amazing how much damage he was able to do in two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 (edited) For the life of me, I could never figure out why he went #1. The jumper was always suspect and the physical tools are far from eye-popping. Edited November 21, 2018 by TryTheBeal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 He was a shot maker and creator in college. Russ is going to devour KD tonight. Prove me wrong KD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 They could have had Tatum, which would have given them two scorers (that are already work out together) to go with Simmons, who is essentially a giant Rondo. That's a formula for long term success. The process failed in that draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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