The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Momma There Goes That Man]

6 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

28.7%. Give or take a couple of percentage points. 

 

Thats last is a good question, when are you going start?

it already has started given that he is being considerate of marginalized people and their opinions that are openly stating the name and imagery are offensive.
 

Whether that is enough percentage of people for you to care is for you to decide. But be clear, these people are actually hurt by this team whatever the percentage is and they are trying to tell you that,  meanwhile, you can’t be bothered to care because you’d rather express anger toward them that a football team you like has to change its name and you’re hella inconvenienced by it and bitter about childhood memories and whatever else. 
 

so yeah, I’m ok with the side of the line that I’m standing on with this one 

[wrilbo67]

I think changing the color scheme is ridiculous but I get their logic in asking for it- people are going to keep wearing Redskins gear to games for decades to come.

 

They got rid of Chief Illiniwek at my alma mater in 2007, and a few folks still all yell, “Chieeeeeeeeef,” at the point in the halftime show when he would’ve come out and done his dance. There was talk of getting rid of the 3-in-1 (that portion of the halftime show), but that’s ridiculous too IMO. 
 

The “Chieeeeeef,” yells have gotten quieter in the past few seasons, mostly because it’s Illini football and there’s no one at the games.

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

it already has started given that he is being considerate of marginalized people and their opinions that are openly stating the name and imagery are offensive.
 

Whether that is enough percentage of people for you to care is for you to decide. But be clear, these people are actually hurt by this team whatever the percentage is, meanwhile, you are simply angry that a football team you like has to change its name and you’re hella inconvenienced by it and bitter about childhood memories and whatever else. 
 

so yeah, I’m ok with the side of the line that I’m standing on with this 

 

Yes, its something I grew up with and care about. So, yes, I am going to defend it. However, I think I've clearly laid out my points that you ignore. You go right to the well of "people are hurt," followed immediately by dismissing me as "angry and bitter."

 

It's precisely what people like Wise and Feinstein do.

[Commander PK]

2 minutes ago, wrilbo67 said:

I think changing the color scheme is ridiculous but I get their logic in asking for it- people are going to keep wearing Redskins gear to games for decades to come.

 

Getting the name changed is a big first step, but if they think that everyone will suddenly and immediately believe and adhere to every facet of their argument against Native American mascots they are sadly mistaken.  Not even every Native American believes everything they believe.  You still see Bullets gear at Wizards games, and that change happened 25 years ago.  There will certainly be acts of defiance on the change.  A sledge hammer will not work here.       

[Mr. Sinister]

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Well, it's going so...

 

And your response is exactly my point, you only want to listen to those who are offended, no matter how small the minority or what anyone else has to say. That has been my biggest issue with this argument the entire time. Of everything else I wrote, you focused on that one sentence.

 

Nope. Womp womp

 

For me, it boils down to a simple conclusion... And it's a conclusion I've come full circle on since this discussion intensified a few years ago.

 

For me, this is a football team that I root for. For others its something theyve been called, something they've seen plastered all over their TV's, something they've been told "Honors" them, and something they've been told shouldn't be offensive, because this other Native American group said in this other poll done by this other person that it's not offensive, so waahh [baby sound effect]

 

I am aware that polls can say many things you want them to say, on top of reflecting some truth in its results. I am also aware that these "NA's" are likely hundreds of individual nations, reduced to one group, and one train of thought, a sizable amount of whom may self identify, rather than have an actual ancestral/tribal connection. 

 

I am aware that if I wanted to believe that this is some grand crusade against political correctness, that I could find comfort in the polling data that would seem to support my entitled opinion. I am also aware that how one interprets a question can have a profound impact on such data, when faced with the host of issues that impact daily Native American life. ****s complicated. It always is when discussing matters amongst a group of people.

 

But what I'm really doing is ignoring the big picture. These are people's lives we're talking about. Many many Native Americans have told us over the years that this is hurtful to them. Beyond hurtful. It is a word that reminds them of their below second class place in America, and they reject this ridiculous notion of tribal pride and respect.

 

So I've asked myself in the past.... Are these people liars? Or they misguided? Shouldn't they agree like the rest of Native Americans  who claim it isn't offensive (or so says whatever poll of the week)?

 

And I decided that it boils down to this.. cutting through all the kind of stuff that would've allowed this crap to fester for another decade:

 

 

 

If I can truly recognize that this bothers a lot of people on a deep, personal level, then why exactly am I defending it? If I truly give equal weight to those that say it's not a problem and those who say it is, then why am I favoring one side over the other (the side that will allow me to believe that this just isn't that big of a deal, so I can keep rooting for them, conscience free)? If I want to respect these people's wishes on either "Side," am I really doing anything of the sort by continuing to voice support of a name that is incredibly controversial and derogatory, and does not benefit them in any meaningful way? When I finally understood the correct course of action to take, it finally made me realize how much this bull**** should've been gone a long time ago

 

I didn't ignore what you posted (it's nothing you haven't said a thousand times before, and it's nothing I haven't uttered to myself back  in my more ignorant, self righteous days)

 

No. I cut right through to the simple question. The one you didn't answer 

 

1 hour ago, Mr. Sinister said:

So if the people who are offended count, and have unequivocally told you in so many ways, that this is a racial slur, then should it stay or should it go?

 

•  

And if the answer is yes (meaningit should go), then nothing else matters.

[Riggo#44]

8 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

Getting the name changed is a big first step, but if they think that everyone will suddenly and immediately believe and adhere to every facet of their argument against Native American mascots they are sadly mistaken.  Not even every Native American believes everything they believe.  You still see Bullets gear at Wizards games, and that change happened 25 years ago.  There will certainly be acts of defiance on the change.  A sledge hammer will not work here.       

 

Theres also a different between making a difference and making a display. How does ridding the world of Native Mascots really make a difference? It seems more like a display to me.

 

But whatever, Redskins is gone, and that's not changing. Snyder will most likely **** up the new name as well, and round and around we'll go.

[wrilbo67]

@Painkilleri agree with you btw. 

[Riggo#44]

15 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

waahh [baby sound effect]

This sort of name-calling really detracts from the argument. It is something I try to stay out of because it really serves no purpose. 

 

15 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

And if the answer is yes, then nothing else matters.

 This what it boils down to, I have never been this black and white, there are always shades of grey.  This isn't the Confederate Flag. At this point, Redskins going, I don't have to agree with it,, there is no going back, but their ridiculous list of demands they sent was just absurd. 

 

20 years from now no one will give a ****, this mess will be forgotten and nothing will have really changed. 

 

[RichmondRedskin88]

30 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

Getting the name changed is a big first step, but if they think that everyone will suddenly and immediately believe and adhere to every facet of their argument against Native American mascots they are sadly mistaken.  Not even every Native American believes everything they believe.  You still see Bullets gear at Wizards games, and that change happened 25 years ago.  There will certainly be acts of defiance on the change.  A sledge hammer will not work here.       

Probably more defiance if trying to tell the team how it exactly must rebrand.  The name is being changed. The likenesses are likely gone.  If they are gonna be petty and go after color schemes and such I expect many will purposely fight back then.  

[spjunkies]

Can't give em too much! 

[Conn]

7 minutes ago, spjunkies said:

Can't give em too much! 

 

"When will it ever be enough? Where does it end??" etc. etc.

 

...before anything has even begun to happen as if this is just one more thing on an existing mountain of substantive changes lol. 

[Mr. Sinister]

14 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

This sort of name-calling really detracts from the argument. It is something I try to stay out of because it really serves no purpose. 

 

 

It detracts even more than that when you latch onto it and try (and fail) to deflect from something you seem to not really want to address, claiming that I called you something when I clearly didn't. 

 

Quote

This what it boils down to, I have never been this black and white, there are always shades of grey.  This isn't the Confederate Flag.

 

Again, it's a comforting thought, believing you are righteous enough in your belief to make such a statement... That one symbol of hatred and bigotry does not equate to another symbol of hate and bigotry, because... Facts, or polls, or something.

 

"See! I got you! The Redskins aren't the Confederate Flag!" Nope. Doesn't mean the reaction to such imagery in any way differs between the two, as it pertains to the targeted party

 

Quote

20 years from now no one will give a ****, this mess will be forgotten and nothing will have really changed. 

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. It really matters very little how history chooses to remember this moment. It was change that needed to happen. That's good enough for me

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

It's been a ****ty week so far.  Work sucks, my Facebook groups suck ass, this **** with the name change.........on here too.............**** it

 

[88Comrade2000]

The name is changed. Any ties to Native American imagery will not be allowed.

 

The colors aren’t going to change. Dan may add some colors but Burgandy and Gold will be part of the color scheme.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

7 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

The name is changed. Any ties to Native American imagery will not be allowed.

 

The colors aren’t going to change. Dan may add some colors but Burgandy and Gold will be part of the color scheme.

 

So where is your source on this?  

[Riggo#44]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

That one symbol of hatred and bigotry does not equate to another symbol of hate and bigotry, because... Facts, or polls, or something.

This is the last thing I'll say because we are just going in circles otherwise. The Confederate Flag is by and large considered a symbol of hate. Most everyone agrees on that--it has been adopted by hate groups, neo-nazis, white supremacists, KKK, the cornucopia of the scum of society. Those who don't most likely fall into one of those groups. You're not going to see many African Americans flying a Confederate Flag correct?

 

Redskins is gone, we all agree, its gone and done. We'll even agree that it's the "worst" one, for arguments sake. But not even Native groups agree on that word. You have a large population saying they are "proud to be a redskin." Associating the Confederate Flag with Redskin is the kind of hyperbole and false equivalency that has really has no real basis in fact. That's the type of populist exaggeration that I won't accept. Its demonstrably not true. If you disagree well then its many things we'll agree to disagree on.

 

And this has nothing to do with self-righteousness, or some kind of consolation or whatever--its the facts I see in evidence. I also don't generally get swayed by people's feelings.

 

This really isn't worth the energy any of us have expended, no one is changing their mind, nothing is really getting solved.

 

So go Nats, go Whatever-theyre-going-to-be-called.

[Mr. Sinister]

You're alright, bud. This sucks, no doubt. We'll get through this 

[88Comrade2000]

2 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

So where is your source on this?  

My gut.

 

They can get the name and logo changed but you can’t force a color change. Dan will reluctantly accept the name change. He will grudgingly have to accept a logo without Native American imagery.

 

I don’t see Dan getting rid of the color scheme. He may alter it with additional colors but primary colors will still be there.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

I just want to say, I love all you mother ****ers on here.  Well almost, a couple of you suck.  No matter what happens in the end, where any of us lie, it's just a name at the end of the day.  There are so many ****ed up issues we need to deal with as a nation, right now, regardless of the changing of a football team name (regardless of if you're for or against it).  Nothing but love from me to all y'all!!!!  

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

Well almost, a couple of you suck.

Awww, thanks!

 

Youre ok, you know, for a Braves fan.

[spjunkies]

I echo those thoughts, love of the team brought us all together over the years to communicate on a message board, this is a very tough subject, but hopefully the conclusion will be love and understanding without too much fracture. 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

14 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Awww, thanks!

 

Youre ok, you know, for a Braves fan.

You are ok by me, not that it matters.  Regardless of our past ****ed up history about MLB.

[Riggo#44]

10 minutes ago, spjunkies said:

I echo those thoughts, love of the team brought us all together over the years to communicate on a message board, this is a very tough subject, but hopefully the conclusion will be love and understanding without too much fracture. 

 

I think we can all agree who the real problem is: people who stop being fans if the name is changed!

 

1 minute ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

You are ok by me, not that it matters.  Regardless of our past ****ed up history about MLB.

I dont hold it against anyone for making terrible life choices regarding their MLB team.

 

I mean you're a Braves fan AND a Team Formerlt Known as Redskins fan...you deserve all sympathies.

[pigskinned]

The cancel culture flies in the face of the attitude "live and let live," which is a concept required for large groups of diverse peoples to live in harmony...whether the diversity is based on economics, politics, religion, race or philosophy. Really at the root of the call to cancel...whether it be extinguishing a team name or public shaming of somebody with a different viewpoint...I think is the joy that certain people get by making others feel pain and sadness. There are many lifelong Redskins fans that will lose their connection to a beloved past time when this team is cancelled. The team by any other name won't be the same. And that is a loss, a very deep loss for some. And they feel better by inflicting that loss on others, even though it will not convey any benefit back onto themselves.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

30 minutes ago, pigskinned said:

The cancel culture flies in the face of the attitude "live and let live," which is a concept required for large groups of diverse peoples to live in harmony...whether the diversity is based on economics, politics, religion, race or philosophy. Really at the root of the call to cancel...whether it be extinguishing a team name or public shaming of somebody with a different viewpoint...I think is the joy that certain people get by making others feel pain and sadness. There are many lifelong Redskins fans that will lose their connection to a beloved past time when this team is cancelled. The team by any other name won't be the same. And that is a loss, a very deep loss for some. And they feel better by inflicting that loss on others, even though it will not convey any benefit back onto themselves.

This is ridiculous. 
 

what it boils down to is 1) We can change the name and imagery and try to address a source of pain for many people 2) we can not change the name because some people don’t find it offensive and some are upset about the name of their favorite football team changing 

 

how is this even a question to consider? I’m sorry if it upsets people but the name of a football team is not more important than righting a wrong that hurts others. Being upset about one is pretty superficial where the other one is actually damaging. And If the connection is severed by a name change and not the actual team, I question the connection. 
 

if they had changed to Warriors in 1984 yet the team still had Gibbs, Monk, Green, Riggins etc and were a Super Bowl contender every year would the connection have been lost then? No. It’s because we’ve sucked for 30 years and always have to live in the past so now some feel that connection to when we were good is being lost. 

the connection should be to the team imo.