alexey Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Can somebody please help me understand something... So people say that there are "supernatural" things. By that, they seem to indicate that we cannot study these "supernatural" things using "naturalistic" methods - experiments, measurements, etc. Since those are the only reliable methods of study that we have, doesn't it seem strange to say that something is outside this method by definition? If we encounter something that is not explained, it seems that our options are to say that something is "explainable but unknown at the moment" or "fundamentally unexplainable". Why would we acknowledge something as "fundamentally unexplainable" or "supernatural" ever, at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Why would we acknowledge something as "fundamentally unexplainable" or "supernatural" ever, at all? It's not that you can't use the scientific method to explore it... you can use the scientific method of theory, postulate, law backed by experimentation to investigate anything. Supernatural - Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. There are a lot of things beyond scientific understanding... Much of philosophy investigations are beyond science.... Just as much of what we understand as science today was beyond the understanding of the earliest advocates of the scientific method... ( electronics, radios, space travel, flight etc.. ) but none of these things were beyond the scientific method to investigate if given the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Organic soup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Anything that bleeds for 5-7 days & doesn't die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Why would we acknowledge something as "fundamentally unexplainable" or "supernatural" ever, at all? I agree with you. Encountering something potentially unknown or unexplained shouldn't result in lazy responses like assuming it never can be. There might be some things however that may have a nature that makes them extremely difficult to study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 An okay tv show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I bet Neil deGrasse Tyson has some very smart things to say about this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjah Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I enjoy imagining an omnipotent God to whom miracles are simply straightforward applications of a well understood workaday technology or technique. Surely there is nothing an omnipotent God wouldn't fully understand down to the last imaginable detail. So miracles, to him, are about as thrilling as trimming one's fingernails. To omnipotent God there is no such thing as the supernatural. It's all perfectly natural and very, very well understood. So why demand fealty from a collection of comparative sea monkeys steeped in near-total ignorance, in return for doing mundane things? God is an odd duck with fallen angel issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan since a Fetus Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Superman is Supernatural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Because we're superstitious lemmings. Sorry, but this thread is as predictable as the sun coming up in the morning. In all honesty there is so little difference between Fundamentalist Christians and Absolutist Atheists that it's not even funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 There are a lot of things beyond scientific understanding... Much of philosophy investigations are beyond science.... Just as much of what we understand as science today was beyond the understanding of the earliest advocates of the scientific method... ( electronics, radios, space travel, flight etc.. ) but none of these things were beyond the scientific method to investigate if given the opportunity. I'm not sure how you can say that something is be beyond scientific understanding yet not beyond the scientific method if given the opportunity. Whether something is potentially beyond scientific understanding or not seems to be a matter of assumption. You can assume that it is beyond understanding or you can assume that it is not beyond understanding, yet currently not understood. Yes historically people took the "beyond understanding" position and assumed explanations were "supernatural". Originally this was the case with pretty much everything. I am having a hard time understanding why anybody would call anything "supernatural" nowadays. I enjoy imagining an omnipotent God to whom miracles are simply straightforward applications of a well understood workaday technology or technique... Not only that, but in order to qualify as "miracles" by today's definitions he also has to keep them "supernatura", i.e. beyond our ever-expanding ability to detect and study things. That's the strange part to me. It seems that doing "supernatural" things was easier when humans knew very little about the world around us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeaconTheVillain Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Anything that bleeds for 5-7 days & doesn't die. /thread Would not recommend eating such animal either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I have a feeling it's a much deeper question, but for me the answer would be Q: What is Supernatural? A: The way i manage to throw my son interceptions in Madden. it's un-****ing-CANNY. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
757SeanTaylor21 Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Well one day driving home from work at 2 am I was just jumping on the interstate about to merge to my furthest left lane, I was in the 3rd left lane. About to get in that last left lane I check all my mirrors, my blind spot, and it's nothing but pitch black darkness. Oh and I'm driving a 91 cougar that was low with a soft top. About 1/4 in the farthest left lane, I hear an angel tell me steer right back to my lane and do not merge. I don't override this message and I do as what this voice said to me. As soon as I pull back an 18 wheeler BLOWS by me without their lights on and then flicks them on. That was a supernatural event taking place that I'm sure most would of ignored. I would of instantaneously spontaneously human combusted and bursted into glitter had if I not listened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Well one day driving home from work at 2 am I was just jumping on the interstate about to merge to my furthest left lane, I was in the 3rd left lane. About to get in that last left lane I check all my mirrors, my blind spot, and it's nothing but pitch black darkness. Oh and I'm driving a 91 cougar that was low with a soft top. About 1/4 in the farthest left lane, I hear an angel tell me steer right back to my lane and do not merge. I don't override this message and I do as what this voice said to me. As soon as I pull back an 18 wheeler BLOWS by me without their lights on and then flicks them on.That was a supernatural event taking place that I'm sure most would of ignored. I would of instantaneously spontaneously human combusted and bursted into glitter had if I not listened. I was playing Madden with my best friend in Iraq in 2006, he hit a Hail Mary to send the game into over time. Three minutes into OT a rocket hits my living area (like my CHU) and kills my room mate and half of my FIST team. If he didn't hit that Hail Mary (and it was like 60 - plus yards) I would've been back in my room and likely would've been smoked. If anything it was divine intervention, not sure it qualifies as supernatural, but it's the closest story that I have to yours that I'm willing to share right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Supernatural was a great instrumental by Peter Green during his Mayall days, which Gary Moore did a terrific job of covering on his Blues for Greeny LP (though most of the rest of that CD is uninspiring). It was also a weak album by Santana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Well one day driving home from work at 2 am I was just jumping on the interstate about to merge to my furthest left lane, I was in the 3rd left lane. About to get in that last left lane I check all my mirrors, my blind spot, and it's nothing but pitch black darkness. Oh and I'm driving a 91 cougar that was low with a soft top. About 1/4 in the farthest left lane, I hear an angel tell me steer right back to my lane and do not merge. I don't override this message and I do as what this voice said to me. As soon as I pull back an 18 wheeler BLOWS by me without their lights on and then flicks them on.That was a supernatural event taking place that I'm sure most would of ignored. I would of instantaneously spontaneously human combusted and bursted into glitter had if I not listened. I'm not going to get into whether something is supernatural or not because I'm not sure how you'd make a distinction, but I remember reading this and was relatively surprised at the numbers in terms of people believing they've interacted with something: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/29/my-take-if-you-hear-god-speak-audibly-you-usually-arent-crazy/ "There’s an old joke: When you talk to God, we call it prayer, but when God talks to you, we call it schizophrenia." "Hearing a voice when alone, or seeing something no one else can see, is pretty common. At least one in 10 people will say they’ve had such an experience if you ask them bluntly. About four in 10 say they have unusual perceptual experiences between sleep and awareness if you interview them about their sleeping habits." "And if you ask them in a way that allows them to admit they made a mistake, the rate climbs even higher. By contrast, schizophrenia, the most debilitating of all mental disorders, is pretty rare. Only about one in 100 people can be diagnosed with the disorder." "Indeed, in 1999, Gallup reported that 23% of all Americans had heard a voice or seen a vision in response to prayer." Now, there might be non-god explanations for all of this, but I do think it is interesting that the number of "normal" people that have had God talk to them or experienced something they would say was not "natural", even today with our focus on the "naturalistic" world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
757SeanTaylor21 Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Divine intervention to me is supernatural. It can't be measured nor explained but some may say it was luck, karma, etc but what I believe is that God intervened and has a purpose for your life bro. I can guarantee you my reaction and yours was roughly the same, well maybe yours more likely was devastated but I had to pull over to the side of the road. I couldn't drive my nerves was so messed up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 ... That was a supernatural event taking place that I'm sure most would of ignored. ... I don't think anybody would have ignored almost getting killed in a traffic accident. You may mean to say that other people may have interpreted this event differently. Stuff like this is actually pretty common, not the truck part, of course, but the "making a good decision without knowing why" part. Some information that you percieve may not make it into awareness, but it can still influence your decisions. In your case, you probably did see something strange, something moving, etc, but did not realize that you did. When starting the merge, that information ended up changing your mind (thankfully). More over, this subconscious important information about a strange moving object, once percieved, could have taken different routes into your awareness. For you, it turned into an angel wispering in your head because you believe in angels. Somebody else may have simply felt a trange uncomfortable feeling, etc. ---------- Post added February-20th-2013 at 10:02 AM ---------- Divine intervention to me is supernatural. It can't be measured nor explained but some may say it was luck, karma, etc but what I believe is that God intervened and has a purpose for your life bro. I can guarantee you my reaction and yours was roughly the same, well maybe yours more likely was devastated but I had to pull over to the side of the road. I couldn't drive my nerves was so messed up This is a vulgar construct, in my view. What about all those people who failed to recieve divine intervention? What about milions and milllions of people dying in strange, horrible, unnecessary, cruel ways throughout history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
757SeanTaylor21 Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I'm not going to get into whether something is supernatural or not because I'm not sure how you'd make a distinction, but I remember reading this and was relatively surprised at the numbers in terms of people believing they've interacted with something:http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/29/my-take-if-you-hear-god-speak-audibly-you-usually-arent-crazy/ "There’s an old joke: When you talk to God, we call it prayer, but when God talks to you, we call it schizophrenia." "Hearing a voice when alone, or seeing something no one else can see, is pretty common. At least one in 10 people will say they’ve had such an experience if you ask them bluntly. About four in 10 say they have unusual perceptual experiences between sleep and awareness if you interview them about their sleeping habits." "And if you ask them in a way that allows them to admit they made a mistake, the rate climbs even higher. By contrast, schizophrenia, the most debilitating of all mental disorders, is pretty rare. Only about one in 100 people can be diagnosed with the disorder." "Indeed, in 1999, Gallup reported that 23% of all Americans had heard a voice or seen a vision in response to prayer." Now, there might be non-god explanations for all of this, but I do think it is interesting that the number of "normal" people that have had God talk to them or experienced something they would say was not "natural", even today with our focus on the "naturalistic" world. It isn't a "belief" that something intervened, it's a fact lol. A voice told me to pull back into my lane and I adhered to it. Whose voice was it? How did I hear this warning? This wasn't between a sleeping and awareness habit. This was fresh of of work and I'm driving so I'm wide awake. What one may think is just whatever they think due to their own beliefs...with my faith which is believing of things that's not seen and having that HAPPEN to me which gave me more faith there is a higher power..is just that. But science can not prove not explain what intervened...and i strongly doubt that it ever will...because it was supernatural Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 ... Now, there might be non-god explanations for all of this, but I do think it is interesting that the number of "normal" people that have had God talk to them or experienced something they would say was not "natural", even today with our focus on the "naturalistic" world. What do you mean there might be a "non-god" explanation for this? This is well explained and completely accounted for by neurobiology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
757SeanTaylor21 Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I don't think anybody would have ignored almost getting killed in a traffic accident.You may mean to say that other people may have interpreted this event differently. Stuff like this is actually pretty common, not the truck part, of course, but the "making a good decision without knowing why" part. Some information that you percieve may not make it into awareness, but it can still influence your decisions. In your case, you probably did see something strange, something moving, etc, but did not realize that you did. When starting the merge, that information ended up changing your mind (thankfully). More over, this subconscious important information about a strange moving object, once percieved, could have taken different routes into your awareness. For you, it turned into an angel wispering in your head because you believe in angels. Somebody else simply felt a trange uncomfortable feeling, etc. ---------- Post added February-20th-2013 at 10:02 AM ---------- This is a vulgar construct, in my view. What about all those people who failed to recieve divine intervention? What about milions and milllions of people dying in strange, horrible, unnecessary, cruel ways throughout history? Well I didn't see anything..I seen pitch black darkness. I checked everything. How did I know that something was gonna happen? It's either you listen to that voice that I heard or you don't. If you don't, you would have ended up on the news. You can say "maybe I seem something strange" well I didn't. As the person who went through the ordeal..there was nothin to be seen. The road was completely blacked out and I had my windows up with my jazz playing. You may try to make sense of everything because you may not believe in supernatural events or miracles...but me being on the other end of the spectrum, I do. What about people that didn't recieve divine intervention is steering away from the topic at hand. But it does t happen to everybody..if something like that was to happen to you...would that be divine intervention to you? A supernatural event? Or you just happen to be lucky and try to research scientific articles that try their best to explain what possibly caused this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 Well I didn't see anything..I seen pitch black darkness. I checked everything. How did I know that something was gonna happen? It's either you listen to that voice that I heard or you don't. If you don't, you would have ended up on the news. You can say "maybe I seem something strange" well I didn't. As the person who went through the ordeal..there was nothin to be seen. The road was completely blacked out and I had my windows up with my jazz playing. You may try to make sense of everything because you may not believe in supernatural events or miracles...but me being on the other end of the spectrum, I do. You are saying that you did not become consciously aware of seeing anything. I am saying that you could have seen something without becoming aware of it. Note that your nice, smooth, seemingly fully aware consciousness is actually an illusion. You are not aware of vast majority of information that you percieve. I don't think it would be appropriate for me to try and convince you of anything regarding this event. Let me just say that options are: 1) You were subconsciously aware of the truck. 2) You were subconsciously aware that you did not have sufficiently reliable information to merge. 3) You were completely unaware of the danger and got a lucky feeling at the right time. 4) Miracle. What about people that didn't recieve divine intervention is steering away from the topic at hand. But it does t happen to everybody..if something like that was to happen to you...would that be divine intervention to you? A supernatural event? Or you just happen to be lucky? I think people tend to underestimate the role of intuitions (subconscious processing of information), etc, but if no brains are involved then yes I think its luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
757SeanTaylor21 Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 What exactly is a subconscious mind state and how is it measures? What is luck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 What exactly is a subconscious mind state and how is it measures? What is luck? Found a good diagram - subconscious mind is everything below the topmost triangle: I think different people mean different things when they use the word "luck". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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