alexey Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 In case there are things you always wanted to ask but never got the chance... Going to start this off with some common topics that usually come up. What is an "atheist"? At a minimum, atheist is a person who, when asked "Do you believe that God exists?", answers "No I do not have that belief". Atheists may go further and have positive beliefs about nonexistence of gods, but that is not necessary. Does being an atheist mean that I am making an affirmative claim that no Gods exist? No, I am not making any claims. I simply do not accept claims that God/Gods exist. I am doing that without making any claims of my own. Some atheists do have an affirmative belief that no Gods exist, but one can be an atheist without that. Who banged the Big Bang, why does the Universe exist, how did life emerge from non-life? Some questions are meaningless (what is the purpose of mountains?), other questions can be answered with a simple "we do not yet know that". It is OK to say that we do not know something. As a matter of fact, it is preferable to say that, rather than make things up. Where do I get my morality? Evolution has no problem explaining emergence of morality in social animals. However, this should not be viewed as a blanket endorsement of our natural inclinations. What is natural is not necessarily what is good. What about evidence of design in the natural world? Indeed the natural world shows evidence of design. However, it does not show evidence of a designer. This can be counter-intuitive. There is a split between some atheists about whether it is more appropriate to call it merely "apparent design" (Richard Dawkins) or actual "design without a designer" (Daniel Dennett). What about people who say that religion fulfills a particular and necessary purpose? Consolation, social support, inspiration, charity, etc - these are all important and necessary things. It would be a difficult situation if religion were indeed the only way to get those. What about Stalin/Mao/Hitler/etc? While some of those those were self-professed atheists, they did not do bad things in the name of atheism. Hopefully we can all agree that any form of dogmatism is bad, including dogmatic atheism. Atheism is sometimes slandered as being inherently dogmatic; that is not the case. What do atheists believe about death, souls, etc? I suppose different atheists can have different opinions on that... but most atheists would probably say that your person-hood is entirely contained within your brain, and it faces annihilation when your brain dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Where do I get my morality?Evolution has no problem explaining emergence of morality in social animals. However, this should not be viewed as a blanket endorsement of our natural inclinations. What is natural is not necessarily what is good. What is good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 What is good? There are many different ways to answer that question. Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. Justice. General welfare. Well being and flourishing of conscious creatures. Reduction of suffering. Empathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfWashington Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Gas or charcoal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Gas or charcoal? Gas for convenience, charcoal for flavor. Haven't tried gas with a smoker box, but it sounds great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Well being and flourishing of conscious creatures. Is it good to raise animals for food? Is it better if you barbecue them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Is it good to raise animals for food? Is it better if you barbecue them? My view is that morality/goodness of eating animals depends on other options and those animals' ability to experience suffering. For example, I understand that cow's ability to experience suffering is more advanced than that of a chicken, and chicken's is in turn more advanced than shrimp's. From that perspective, I think that easting shrimp is more moral than eating chicken, and eating chicken is more moral than eating beef. If one eats chicken, I think it is more moral to eat chickens that were raised in a "cage free" environment, etc. Also, note that meat may be a necessary part of some people's nutritional needs. Meat eating, therefore, is more moral for those people over people who may go without it. Personally, I still eat meat even though I consider it to be somewhat immoral... although I am open to reducing or eliminating my meat intake down the road, as I become a more advanced moral agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d0ublestr0ker0ll Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Gas or charcoal? Charcoal. George Foreman grill sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Is it good to raise animals for food? Yes. I have a recipe for dodo bird braised in lager that would have encouraged responsible farming of the species, and its survival. Is it better if you barbecue them? When in doubt, ask yourself, WWJD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 My view is that morality/goodness of eating animals depends on other options and those animals' ability to experience suffering.For example, I understand that cow's ability to experience suffering is more advanced than that of a chicken, and chicken's is in turn more advanced than shrimp's. From that perspective, I think that easting shrimp is more moral than eating chicken, and eating chicken is more moral than eating beef. By "more advanced" you mean more human-like? Does more complexity necessarily imply a more advanced ability to experience suffering? Or are we limited by our ability to understand a shrimp's suffering?If one eats chicken, I think it is more moral to eat chickens that were raised in a "cage free" environment, etc.I'm not really sure whether it's better for the chicken to give it a taste of sweet sweet freedom before slaughtering it, or if ignorance is bliss for chickens raised in a factory environment. I'm pretty sure that free range chickens taste better though because they get more exercise and variety in their diet.Also, note that meat may be a necessary part of some people's nutritional needs. Meat eating, therefore, is more moral for those people over people who may go without it.Personally, I still eat meat even though I consider it to be somewhat immoral... although I am open to reducing or eliminating my meat intake down the road, as I become a more advanced moral agent. Your (lack of) religion seems to have a complicated sliding scale...When in doubt, ask yourself, WWJD? When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” NIV Luke 24:40-44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Beer, wine, or liquor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 They gave him a piece of broiled fish Of course, "That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I'm not really sure whether it's better for the chicken to give it a taste of sweet sweet freedom before slaughtering it, or if ignorance is bliss for chickens raised in a factory environment. I'm pretty sure that free range chickens taste better though because they get more exercise and variety in their diet. Depends how you cook it. Connective tissues are DELICIOUS if you slow cook the bird and that stuff turns into reticulin. If you are just grilling up skinless boneless, then it's just more expensive and has a bit more gristle (and will be smaller). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Do you think there are different degrees of being an atheist. If so rate yourself from 1-10, then rate Corcaigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Do you think there are different degrees of being an atheist. If so rate yourself from 1-10, then rate Corcaigh. I'm so ready for the swimsuit portion of the contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I'm so ready for the swimsuit portion of the contest. Oh, lord! There's a swimsuit portion? Maybe there isn't a God after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 By "more advanced" you mean more human-like? Does more complexity necessarily imply a more advanced ability to experience suffering? Or are we limited by our ability to understand a shrimp's suffering? Our understanding of suffering is grounded in our understanding of neurobiology. I'm not really sure whether it's better for the chicken to give it a taste of sweet sweet freedom before slaughtering it, or if ignorance is bliss for chickens raised in a factory environment. I'm pretty sure that free range chickens taste better though because they get more exercise and variety in their diet. I think that chickens that are raised in an unnatural, dark, and crowded environment suffer more compared to chickens that are raised in a more natural cage-free environment. Your (lack of) religion seems to have a complicated sliding scale... I'm not sure what this has to do with religion. Are you suggesting that I have a religion or something like it? Are you saying that based on me describing how I try to discover my moral shortcomings and work on them? ---------- Post added January-7th-2013 at 07:11 PM ---------- Do you think there are different degrees of being an atheist. If so rate yourself from 1-10, then rate Corcaigh. I think being an atheist is a true/false type of thing. Do you believe that God(s) exists? If you answer no, you are an atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Are all beliefs true/false, or do you have varying degrees of belief for different propositions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 Are all beliefs true/false, or do you have varying degrees of belief for different propositions I think there are true/false beliefs and statements, but there are a lot of linguistic and philosophical traps and confusions. For example, does a bird know how to fly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter44 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 What about Stalin/Mao/Hitler/etc? While some of those those were self-professed atheists, they did not do bad things in the name of atheism. Hopefully we can all agree that any form of dogmatism is bad, including dogmatic atheism. Atheism is sometimes slandered as being inherently dogmatic; that is not the case. When did Hitler claim to be an atheist? From what I know he was a professed Christian and his movement was a Christian movement. We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 I've always had my doubts about Hitler being a Christian. From what I understand, he was really into mysticism and doesn't exactly vibe with mainline Christian ideals. Besides, politicians will say damn near anything to get elected. He was probably trying to appeal to religious voters. To be frank, I think Hitler's religion was Hitler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 First, aside from whatever one's positions on any of it, I think the OP was well-crafted given the norm in this venue (football message board side-forum). Also, I applaud the mainly good-natured and reasonable tone so far, especially the humor. Let's work to keep it that way. That's not a friendly suggestion. I have no friends. Posted by Corgaich---I'm so ready for the swimsuit portion of the contest. I see a picture of some middle-aged ginger in a speedo and I will make you believe in Hell. :evilg: Posted by Djtj---Your (lack of) religion seems to have a complicated sliding scale... Mine sure does. But then I find most matters more inherently complex than not, and "simplicity" often being more an illusion or misrepresentation (by various reasons). I also think that complicated sliding scale seems to apply to many believers of different faiths I've known, once we're past the basic God v. No God, and My Religion v. Another's Religion deal. One such element in my own case, if someone I know is Muslim or Christian asks me if I believe in god, the most meaningful short answer I could give them is "no", because I know "which God" or "what God" they're asking me about and I don't believe "that god" exists (just as I don't believe Poseidon exists). Now that sounds like an "atheist answer" to many, but I label myself as an agnostic. I always start the conversation (when serious) with defining what the concept of "god" means to those involved. i.e. (for the agnostic, or someone not of a particular religious belief already) Does "God" mean some scale of organizing force that may or may not be operating within some form of what we call sentience? If yes, do you think such organizing force has sentience (whatever your reasons are), then the question becomes is this sentience such that concepts common to our human perception, thinking, and understanding, are similar for it, and if so, to what degree? If you envision a sentient God of a nature having such similarity, what do you envision of the involvement with humans in every aspect of such (degree, nature, range, etc etc) imaginable? Regarding impacting humans daily lives (as just one area), does this being do a-m, but not n-t, and pick up again at u-z, or what? Within just those three steps lies much pondering for someone not of a particular religion, where all of that is already decided, even though details (some mattering to life and death levels for many humans) may vary not only within religions, but also within smaller groups (sects, denominations) and individuals within specific religions, of course. So, for instance, as an agnostic, I might allow for some organizing force as a "being" to possibly exist, and maybe even go the next step and say that it may have sentience as we know it. And then on to it even is such that it "gets us", and maybe even figure it might have some actual level of involvement with us. Likely just that much is a lot for many such folk to "allow" without "belief." Truth is I have met many agnostics who don't seem to have thought it out even this much--and this is nothing. But even if one gets all the way there, they still can say they certainly don't believe the Christian God of the Bible and related OT and NT material etc. They may allow for this possible being with all the "demanded" human-linked qualifications described, and still think that the Bible (for example) as all man-made stuff applied to explaining our experience of existence (among other purposes) and find all the material offered as evidence to support that faith, conclusively unsatisfying. So someone like this can say "I don't believe in God" when talking to a Christian (or Muslim etc) and it be not only meaningfully accurate, but also really getting to the heart of the matter as far as a Christian should be concerned (IMV), but the same person can still be open to a possibility that some sentient force of some type may indeed exist. BTW, I always though it a bit directionless for Christians (or Muslims etc) to argue "god or no god" with someone versus arguing "Christian or not Christian", which to them should be the real topic (IMV). And I get the "first things first" play on that angle, but I don't have time or interest--nor do you---to get into my other thoughts on that . Have fun. I have to go rub my crystals. :pfft: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 I am 100% atheist in that i believe no god or devil or deity of any kind exists.. no creator, no guiding hand, no all powerful. But I believe in Karma. not necessarily as a metaphysical truth, but in that the balance can be kept. But it's not like I believe it's an active force.. it's just a manner of guiding myself. If i do good, maybe the vibes I put out bring good back. What does that say? ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 why embrace a absolute of no gods/beings? to me not embracing means you are no true atheist.... having the form of atheism and denying the power thereof, so to speak a agnostic in denial :pfft: :evilg: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 why embrace a absolute of no gods/beings? cause it's absurd and don't make no sense, no way nor matter I think bout it. But I'm spiritual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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