"ask an atheist" thread

[Bang]

I just don't get it. if your godless and proud wouldn't you avoid anything to do with the supposed Son of G-d;s birthday. After all Jesus is nothing but a white guy on a stick to an atheist.

Lert me help yuou.

I'm not proud to be an atheist, it's what I am. I can't convince myself of the story. It's not a matter of pride or shame.. it just is. I'm not against another's belief.. i just don't share it.

I don't care if religion exists, and i don't care if people want to believe in some sort of savior. if it helps them be a decent person, who am i to say?

the reason I enjoy Christmas is just what i said.. it's nice. it's a time when everyone tries to be kind to one another, more or less. Their reasoning for it isn't really my business.

It's just nice that they do, and so I celebrate it.

I also don't see the harm in recognizing that Jesus stood for some fine principles, peace, love, respect... I don't have to believe he's the Son of god to think he made a lot of sense. I have no problem celbrating those ideals, and i do so by being nice and kind and happy to everyne around me. the Golden Rule, so to speak. It doesn't have to be religious to be good.

if people want to celebrate his day by being nice and kind, fine by me.

~Bang

[757SeanTaylor21]

What if you died and heaven and hell DID exist...and the God you didn't believe in asked you why you didn't believe, what would be your answer?

[alexey]

What if you died and heaven and hell DID exist...and the God you didn't believe in asked you why you didn't believe, what would be your answer?

I did the best that I could in evaluating the evidence that was available with mental faculties that I had.

Or, if I wanted to try and be funny, I'd answer "you already know that because you are all knowing"

Supposedly God knows in advance what I am going to do with the free will that i am given. I don't have a choice but to choose what he knows I will choose

[Jumbo]

What if you died and heaven and hell DID exist...and the God you didn't believe in asked you why you didn't believe, what would be your answer?

First I will again call attention to the fact that it matters "what/which God" you envision this conversation occurring with, since not all concepts/constructs of "god" are the same. But I will feel safe in assuming you mean the typical manifestations of the Bible/Christian God and answer that way, because that's what most people in this culture, in these conversations, will mean from the "believer side." It almost never seems (by the way they communicative) that they take active awareness that their framework of a God (capital G) isn't the only one on the table.

Mine would be something like "I really tried my whole life to honestly and open mindedly explore these matters and put in serious time to examine every argument on many related matters and no matter what, I always ended up unable to "get there" in terms of believing the Christian religion's framing of God and more. I even often wanted to, thought it would make life easier, and always hoped it was so even if I couldn't get there or have it make sense to me. I found many positive things, and things I could easily align with, and respected the belief (if not always all believers) but I sincerely couldn't "make myself" think the same."

Then the conversation would go wonderfully, amazingly, further in my fantasy.

[757SeanTaylor21]

Ok I wanna ask a series of questions if I may..

Why do you discredit the Bible?

[Koolblue13]

What if you died and heaven and hell DID exist...and the God you didn't believe in asked you why you didn't believe, what would be your answer?

I can not believe blindly in a God who wouldhave me blindly believe. -Jefferson (badly paraphrased)

[alexey]

Ok I wanna ask a series of questions if I may..

Why do you discredit the Bible?

This question takes on different meanings depending on whether we are talking about Bible's claims about reality, history, philosophy, divinity, etc.

In general, I think you may be asking why atheists do not give the Bible special treatment. I think the answer to that question is self-evident. We do not see the Bible as divine revelation.

[Jumbo]

Ok I wanna ask a series of questions if I may..

Why do you discredit the Bible?

Well, just my two cents, but I'd say your wording gets you off to a bad start (don't mean to be a hardass here).

You might want to pick something specific out of the Bible, since not even all Christians believe the same things about everything in the Bible (though they align mostly on The Really Big Stuff).

Not all people who claim they're Christians even believe the same in who is and isn't a Christian, for that matter, though I haven't felt much confusion on it.

I have my own question for the OP: your title leaves things pretty wide open (and it's a fine title). Since I have seen you already (and reasonably enough so far) ask for certain restrictions on tangents of discusssion in the thread, do you intend, or are ok with, this having much of the typical evolution into a "god v. no < Christian > god" argument that most threads of any religious focus become?

Because I can read the title and see a very different (and to me, much preferred---JMO) course being made available. Hopefully (to me) others can see such alternative courses, too.

---------- Post added January-8th-2013 at 10:32 AM ----------

In general, I think you may be asking why atheists do not give the Bible special treatment. I think the answer to that question is self-evident. We do not see the Bible as divine revelation.

I think that is a pretty good answer to such a broad question.

[No Excuses]

Why do you discredit the Bible?

I don't believe the claimed prophets of every religion (including those in the Bible) had access to the "divine".

[alexey]

...

I have my own question for the OP: your title leaves things pretty wide open (and it's a fine title). Since I have seen you already (and reasonably enough so far) ask for certain restrictions on tangents of discusssion in the thread, do you intend, or are ok with, this having much of the typical evolution into a "god v. no < Christian > god" argument that most threads of any religious focus become?

Because I can read the title and see a very different (and to me, much preferred---JMO) course being made available. Hopefully (to me) others can see such alternative courses, too.

...

I imagined this being about answering questions from an atheist perspective, clarifying things in a positive and non-confrontational way... avoiding familiar tangents seemed like a good idea

[The Sisko]

Why do Atheists celebrate Christmas?

This question always baffles me. Christians stole ....'er "adapted" Christmas from pagan celebrations so why should anyone else need to provide an explanation for doing the same? Ultimately it's just a good time to be with family and friends since everyone else is celebrating, off from work, etc. Besides, who in their right mind could turn down any excuse to enjoy an open bar at company expense? *DOOK* *DOOK* *DOOK* :40oz: :2drunks:

As an agnostic, my problem with religion is usually two fold.

...2) I am familiar with too many people who believe that religion is a prerequisite for morality, and this hurts me on a personal level. A coworker of mine, a young woman in her first year of college, often likes to talk with me about dorm life and boys. One day she asked me how many women I slept with in college. I told her only one, because I was happy in my relationship and felt no need to sleep with dozens of women purely for the fun of doing so. This was a concept impossible for her to understand. In her eyes, there were only two kinds of men. The religious, moral, christian men who waited until they were married, and the heathen womanizers who were out to pillage as many girls as they could. She could not grasp that someone could choose one partner on moral grounds that were not religious. Now, I attribute this to her being quite young still, but I have met too many others with similar view points.

I once mentioned to a former co-worker that I was an agnostic and it was truly amusing to see the gears grinding in her head. She kept asking upon what would I base my morality, how would I "ground" my life, how I'd know I was correct in my assessment of right and wrong, where would I find meaning and so on and then suggesting different faiths I might try for the "answers".

I think it's just inconceivable to some that there are those of us who are perfectly fine with deriving all of the answers to those questions from within ourselves. In fact, I had a much harder time trying to reconcile all the contradictions religion throws into the mix. For me, accepting that everything is mostly just random chance made a lot more sense and is a lot more comforting.

[757SeanTaylor21]

To not believe in somethin to me means that that statement is false;

Ie: the sky is green...if I don't believe that, I'm saying that's false or I'm discrediting that source.

The bible claims that God made the world in 6 days and rested on the seventh. He also made all the creatures and made Adam and Eve. What makes you discredit it, as in not true?

[SWFLSkins]

The stench of humanity will always serve to interrupt the intended relationship with the "Creator".

I can't tell you, but you could learn on your own what that relationship should be.

[alexey]

To not believe in somethin to me means that that statement is false;

Ie: the sky is green...if I don't believe that, I'm saying that's false or I'm discrediting that source.

The bible claims that God made the world in 6 days and rested on the seventh. He also made all the creatures and made Adam and Eve. What makes you discredit it, as in not true?

For me, the initial state is not believing. Then we add statements and supporting evidence:

1) If the evidence for a statement is good, I may accept the statement as true.

2) If the evidence against a statement is good, I may accept the statement as false.

3) If the evidence is not convincing either way, I may remain in the initial state of not believing the statement.

For an atheist, evidence from the Bible is not a convincing way to support statements from the Bible.

[The Sisko]

To not believe in somethin to me means that that statement is false...

Not so. As an agnostic I accept that even though the chances are slim, there might in fact be a God. However even if God does exist I'm not impressed with his handling of things so I don't really have any desire to have anything to do with such a God anyway.

...Ie: the sky is green...if I don't believe that, I'm saying that's false or I'm discrediting that source.

The bible claims that God made the world in 6 days and rested on the seventh. He also made all the creatures and made Adam and Eve. What makes you discredit it, as in not true?

Geological and paleontological reality maybe? In other words, science has proven the claims regarding the creation of the earth not to be true. Likewise the assertion that the sky is green is false by examination, assuming none of the observers are colorblind. As for God "resting" the very concept of an omnipotent deity assumes that it has no need for rest.

[alexey]

The stench of humanity will always serve to interrupt the intended relationship with the "Creator".

...

Atheists generally do not believe in a Creator, but the dynamic is similar - work hard and have the good parts overcome the bad parts.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I once mentioned to a former co-worker that I was an agnostic and it was truly amusing to see the gears grinding in her head. She kept asking upon what would I base my morality, how would I "ground" my life, how I'd know I was correct in my assessment of right and wrong, where would I find meaning and so on and then suggesting different faiths I might try for the "answers".

I think it's just inconceivable to some that there are those of us who are perfectly fine with deriving all of the answers to those questions from within ourselves. In fact, I had a much harder time trying to reconcile all the contradictions religion throws into the mix. For me, accepting that everything is mostly just random chance made a lot more sense and is a lot more comforting.

All I could do to explain to her was ask "Why don't you kill a person every time they say something mean? Why don't you steal something every time someone has something that you covet?" I certainly hope the answer isn't only "because God would be mad/told me not to/I'll go to hell". I hope you can derive your morality out of some other, intrinsic location.

To not believe in somethin to me means that that statement is false;

Ie: the sky is green...if I don't believe that, I'm saying that's false or I'm discrediting that source.

The bible claims that God made the world in 6 days and rested on the seventh. He also made all the creatures and made Adam and Eve. What makes you discredit it, as in not true?

We can play this game all day. Why should I believe the bible over any other piece of literature? Greek cuniform claims that Zeus created the lesser gods and gave each of them a realm to rule over. They claim that Poseidon rules our seas and Aphrodite on manners of love, etc. What would make you discredit them, as in not true?

The combined works of J.R.R. Tolkien claim that Elves left middle earth following the third age and that man rose steadily following this, resulting in the fall of Dwarves, Hobbits, Ents, and other sentient creatures. What makes you discredit this, as in not true?

There are many things in the bible that I DO believe. I find the bible, notably the old testament, as a fabulous account of historical information. In many cases, the events in the bible can be cross references with other, non biblical historical documents, leading to their historical credibility. But lending some credibility to come parts of the bible does not make all aspects of it true and infallible.

[PeterMP]

All I could do to explain to her was ask "Why don't you kill a person every time they say something mean? Why don't you steal something every time someone has something that you covet?" I certainly hope the answer isn't only "because God would be mad/told me not to/I'll go to hell". I hope you can derive your morality out of some other, intrinsic location.

Why don't you?

Do you believe you have a choice (i.e. free will)?

Does she?

Is it right to put people in prison for things you think are wrong if they don't have a choice, and you don't have a choice (in your thinking)?

[SWFLSkins]

Atheists generally do not believe in a Creator, but the dynamic is similar - work hard and have the good parts overcome the bad parts.

But that stench came from somewhere, it came from other humans. I studied some American Indian culture, and I think many could learn from their insight. Ever listen to Bob Marley, Collective Soul? etc. etc. etc? Do you just listen or do the words resonant.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Why don't you?

Do you believe you have a choice (i.e. free will)?

Does she?

Is it right to put people in prison for things you think are wrong if they don't have a choice, and you don't have a choice (in your thinking)?

I certainly am not comfortable with the notion that we live in a world without free will. I don't kill people who piss me off (even if I want to ) or steal things I want because I believe that it would suck to live in a world if people all had that attitude. I'd like to be able to own nice things and have a bad day occasionally without worrying about someone stealing my stuff or insulting the wrong person. I don't need religion to tell me it's wrong to commit those crimes.

Free will is something that I've always had an issue with, especially when it comes to the bible. Christians love to tell me that we have free will, but God is omnipotent and thus knows what my decision will be, even if it was mine to make it. They also love to tell me that it's okay if I don't understand this, because it is one of the hardest parts of faith (which I've already stated I'm not comfortable with.) I'm not pretending to know all the answers or to have even thought out (let alone through) all the questions myself.

But for me, personally, when I read about Moses arguing with Pharaoh. And Pharaoh is considering letting his people go, and over and over and over and over again the bible uses the phrase "But God hardened Pharaoh's heart" I see only God being an a-hole. The bible writes the book of Exodus in such a way as to imply that Pharaoh would have decided to let Moses go, and God, knowing this, purposefully makes him a bitter dick just to both prolong the enslavement of Moses's people and to exact greater retribution on Pharaoh and the Egyptians. And people read all this and they are comfortable with the way Christianity answers the "free will" debate? I see a God who superseded a man's free will purely to prevent that man from making a good decision just so that he could then punish that man for making a bad decision. Forgive me if I want no part of the book of Exodus as it is written.

[Bang]

What if you died and heaven and hell DID exist...and the God you didn't believe in asked you why you didn't believe, what would be your answer?

"What does it matter? I've lived my life well, i've been good, kind and generous, i have not stolen, killed, raped or coveted. I don't lie or cheat, i keep my promises, and take care of my family.

My only sin was using my brain to question your existence.

Why is that bad?"

and if that damns me, then frankly, I don't want it anyway.

Why would an all powerful being be SO needy of my belief to judge me properly?

he can't look past that one thing to the rest?

if he can't, the problem resides with him.

And so if it is true, and i am one day faced with such judgment, i'd prefer to believe that if there were such an all powerful being, it would not be so insecure.

~Bang

[alexey]

But that stench came from somewhere, it came from other humans. I studied some American Indian culture, and I think many could learn from their insight. Ever listen to Bob Marley, Collective Soul? etc. etc. etc? Do you just listen or do the words resonant.

I am not sure how to respond to this. As an atheist I think that humans arose through evolution and natural selection, with cultural evolution playing an ever-increasing role. We behave accordingly.

[DjTj]

All I could do to explain to her was ask "Why don't you kill a person every time they say something mean? Why don't you steal something every time someone has something that you covet?" I certainly hope the answer isn't only "because God would be mad/told me not to/I'll go to hell". I hope you can derive your morality out of some other, intrinsic location.

alexey seems to want to define his morality with extrinsic considerations.

There are many different ways to answer that question. Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. Justice. General welfare. Well being and flourishing of conscious creatures. Reduction of suffering. Empathy.

I believe that Christian morality is actually more intrinsic than extrinsic. A Christian doesn't decide not to lie/cheat/steal because of a fear of God's punishment or to avoid going to Hell; it is out of a personal sense of duty/honor/respect for God and thankfulness for God's grace and forgiveness.

We can play this game all day. Why should I believe the bible over any other piece of literature? Greek cuniform claims that Zeus created the lesser gods and gave each of them a realm to rule over. They claim that Poseidon rules our seas and Aphrodite on manners of love, etc. What would make you discredit them, as in not true?

Well, it looks like people have climbed Mount Olympus, and Zeus isn't up there.

http://www.aroundtheworld.org/greece/climbing-mt-olympus

The combined works of J.R.R. Tolkien claim that Elves left middle earth following the third age and that man rose steadily following this, resulting in the fall of Dwarves, Hobbits, Ents, and other sentient creatures. What makes you discredit this, as in not true?

Tolkien describes his own work as fiction, and doesn't claim it to be true.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/writers/12237.shtml

If you're going to play a game with other possible religions, at least try to stick to ones that people actually believe.

[PeterMP]

I certainly am not comfortable with the notion that we live in a world without free will.

Do you know of a biological/chemical mechanism by which free will (and not just the illusion of free will) could come about?

If not, then shouldn't be equally agnostic/athestic with respect to that?

I don't kill people who piss me off (even if I want to ) or steal things I want because I believe that it would suck to live in a world if people all had that attitude. I'd like to be able to own nice things and have a bad day occasionally without worrying about someone stealing my stuff or insulting the wrong person. I don't need religion to tell me it's wrong to commit those crimes.

Is there any reason to believe you not doing these things prevents other people from doing these things?

Christians love to tell me that we have free will, but God is omnipotent and thus knows what my decision will be, even if it was mine to make it. They also love to tell me that it's okay if I don't understand this, because it is one of the hardest parts of faith (which I've already stated I'm not comfortable with.) I'm not pretending to know all the answers or to have even thought out (let alone through) all the questions myself.

There is a concept called middle knowledge that many Christian philosphers are quite comfortable with and even seems consistent with much of the Bible.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/middlekn/

Generally, it is the idea that God knows of all of the possibilites and out comes, but you get to actually choose the possibility.

Forgive me if I want no part of the book of Exodus as it is written.

That's fine, but that isn't really a reason to be atheist, is it?

---------- Post added January-8th-2013 at 02:43 PM ----------

avoiding familiar tangents seemed like a good idea

I just want to point out that you didn't actually do that. The familiar tangents are right there in the OP where talk about the famous killers of society and how dogmatism is bad.

You wanted to make the assertions you are comfortable making based on your beliefs, but not go any further.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

My apologies Dj; I was not quite clear enough. I deliberately used religions that people don't actually believe because the intention was to show how fickle we are with what we would willingly believe "out of faith" and what we don't. Nobody believes Tolkien's history, as you said, it is a self described work of fiction. Nobody curses Poseidon everytime a hurricane rolls through. Aside from having climbed the mountain and proven no Zeus up there, it is generally believed to be an antiquated ideal. Nobody believes that the earth is all one landmass floating on the back of a giant turtle, or sitting on the shoulders of some giant guy. We've been to space and seen what our planet looks like.

And yet, when if I say these words, many are likely to nod in agreement.

"In the beginning, there was nothing. Nothing at all. No time, no darkness, no absence of nothing, because there was just nothing. Except for this one thing. This one thing, let's call it stuff. It wasn't nothing, like everything else (which was nothing). It was something, it was stuff. And one day that stuff got bored (even though there was nothing, and therefore no boredom or amusement whatsoever) and decided to make something. So it gathered up all the nothing and made it into something. But not like stuff itself, totally different somethings. And when stuff was done, it was so tired, that it took a good long break and watched its something, which it made out of nothing for no reason whatsoever other than that it got tired of being in nothing".