Tom Brady runs a college offense

[illone]

I cant imagine how efficient this offense will be once we are running 90 plays per game. We'll be scoring 50+ per game.

RG3 will be so deadly running the no-huddle type tempo, I cant wait to see it through an entire game.

[MustangSteve]

I never knew the run&shoot was a college offense and thats what the Pats turned to 4 years ago. Thats was the offense that took them 18-0 till the loss to NY. This same offense would thrive in Washington with the field wide open and a back who could bust chunks of yards through the middle. And it makes defenses stay on their heals, but so does our pistol and I love this offense we got!

[omarm]

Offense is offense if it works people need to shutup

[Die Hard]

Wildcat got adapted to rather quickly because the amount of teams running it.

(1) To address the original content of your post... one could take away then, that the real genius in coaching is NOT to have a specific system... but to implement a system that maximizes the talent on your roster.

(2) Misdirection is misdirection. The reason why teams got away from the Single Wing (ie. Wildcat) was because NOBODY has an athlete that was good enough to throw it with any consistency. So it turned into a limited running game which benefited defenses greatly once they figured it out. How many passing TD`s did you see out of the wildcat after Ronnie Brown thrown a couple early on.

The problem with running the Single Wing or the Read Option in the NFL are the same. It`s nearly impossible to find an athlete that can be a primary running back but also a legitimate passer to keep the defenses honest. And then when you finally do... you don`t want to run it as your primary offense because you have a once-in-a-generation athlete and your exposing him to a pounding (ie. greater risk of injury).

Which is why teams include the offense in certain packages... but they`d never run it full-time.

At the end of the day... having a QB that is an athlete and a legitimate threat to run the ball makes every offensive scheme better. That`s just 1 more player defenses have to defend.... and most NFL defenses haven`t had to adjust to that extra player for a long time because NFL offenses were favoring a drop-back passer which is much easier to defend (right Justin Tuck).

The extra playmaker on offense... in addition to pulling offensive linemen (outnumber your opponent at the POA)... is why the Single Wing is deadly. But you have to have a legitimate passing game when you play better defenses (with better athletes than yours).

[CoolHandLuke]

If 10 years down the road offenses have switched to these types of "college" spread option game plans, and defensive players get smaller with more stamina to keep up against no-huddle attacks, some coach is going to go back to running full house backfields and power running plays. And be called a genious.

Oregon runs a similar "hurry up/no huddle" offense, but choked against Stanford. Anyone think Derek Mason, their DC, will transition well in the NFL to stop teams running those offenses? It's also noteworthy that he comes from a DB background. He was the Vikings DB coach for a couple years, Stanfords DB coach for a year, and now he's the Defensive Coordinator/Assistant Head Coach/DB's coach. We have a guy similar to that in Raheem Morris, minus the AssistantHC/DC title.

[JMUSkins]

I cant imagine how efficient this offense will be once we are running 90 plays per game. We'll be scoring 50+ per game.

RG3 will be so deadly running the no-huddle type tempo, I cant wait to see it through an entire game.

This is very exciting, I agree. This is only the FIRST YEAR... and the offense is no where near as "gimmicky" as the Wildcat. That **** never really did work, except in specific situations. Our O is designed to be run at all times.

[Oldfan]

If you take a step back and look at what Harbaugh did to essentially copy the success we are having on offense, it's almost unprecedented. He shook up a team that had gone to (and probably should have won) the NFC Championship Game last year and was steamrolling again this year just to introduce elements of our offense.

That's quite the compliment.

I'm not so sure -- since the Niners drafted Kapernick, he of Nevada/Pistol fame, in 2011, I suspect Harbaugh was already thinking ahead.

[Mahons21]

I'm not so sure -- since the Niners drafted Kapernick, he of Nevada/Pistol fame, in 2011, I suspect Harbaugh was already thinking ahead.

I'm not so sure of that. Alex Smith came from the spread option offense himself. Though I can't remember if there was much pistol used in the varation in Utah. Either way, one would think through Harbaugh's tenure there he would have used some form of that offense with Smith if he had plan on implementing it all along.

I don't doubt that the thought may have crossed Harbough's mind at some point. However I do believe the high level of success the Redskins have had, has contributed to his decision to implement the pistol in the 49ers current offense.

[Darth Tater]

My only disagreement here comes with one exception. When an offense becomes successful in the copy cat league, teams typically add some type of that offense. In order to run this, you need to have a very athletic QB at this level. This eliminates about 20 some odd teams. Being that RG3 is the God of this offense in the NFL, there's barely any Pro QB that could run this, and sell out as well as RG3. His play action fakes, hand offs, pitches, pumps, moves, spins, and speed is on a sickening level. It'll be very difficult for people to COPY this, and therefore difficult for defenses to adapt as quickly as they would if the whole league runs it.

That's what barely anyone is taking into account.

And they Redskins have been adapting since week 1. In fact they've adapted far better than any team we've had in a LONG time.

To avoid confusion with my opinion, I only disagreed because I took your words as one NFL offense does something, the NFL defenses adapt. I think it goes more so year by year and how many teams run things. Wildcat got adapted to rather quickly because the amount of teams running it.

In 1948 Shaugnessy (the guy who designed and implemented the t-formation at Chicago, Stanford, Maryland and our own Washington Redskins) developed the new three-end formation as coach of the Rams. Following the success of this formation (including the most yards passing in a single game which still stands), almost all NFL teams (and many college teams) copied this concept which became known as the pro-set despite sentiments similar to the ones in your post.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 07:50 PM ----------

(1) To address the original content of your post... one could take away then, that the real genius in coaching is NOT to have a specific system... but to implement a system that maximizes the talent on your roster.

(2) Misdirection is misdirection. The reason why teams got away from the Single Wing (ie. Wildcat) was because NOBODY has an athlete that was good enough to throw it with any consistency. So it turned into a limited running game which benefited defenses greatly once they figured it out. How many passing TD`s did you see out of the wildcat after Ronnie Brown thrown a couple early on.

The problem with running the Single Wing or the Read Option in the NFL are the same. It`s nearly impossible to find an athlete that can be a primary running back but also a legitimate passer to keep the defenses honest. And then when you finally do... you don`t want to run it as your primary offense because you have a once-in-a-generation athlete and your exposing him to a pounding (ie. greater risk of injury).

Which is why teams include the offense in certain packages... but they`d never run it full-time.

At the end of the day... having a QB that is an athlete and a legitimate threat to run the ball makes every offensive scheme better. That`s just 1 more player defenses have to defend.... and most NFL defenses haven`t had to adjust to that extra player for a long time because NFL offenses were favoring a drop-back passer which is much easier to defend (right Justin Tuck).

The extra playmaker on offense... in addition to pulling offensive linemen (outnumber your opponent at the POA)... is why the Single Wing is deadly. But you have to have a legitimate passing game when you play better defenses (with better athletes than yours).

But in the pistol, there is no reason the QB has to be the guy running the off-tackle option, your HB can while the FB runs the dive option.

[Rocky52Mc]

(1) To address the original content of your post... one could take away then, that the real genius in coaching is NOT to have a specific system... but to implement a system that maximizes the talent on your roster.

(2) Misdirection is misdirection. The reason why teams got away from the Single Wing (ie. Wildcat) was because NOBODY has an athlete that was good enough to throw it with any consistency. So it turned into a limited running game which benefited defenses greatly once they figured it out. How many passing TD`s did you see out of the wildcat after Ronnie Brown thrown a couple early on.

The problem with running the Single Wing or the Read Option in the NFL are the same. It`s nearly impossible to find an athlete that can be a primary running back but also a legitimate passer to keep the defenses honest. And then when you finally do... you don`t want to run it as your primary offense because you have a once-in-a-generation athlete and your exposing him to a pounding (ie. greater risk of injury).

Which is why teams include the offense in certain packages... but they`d never run it full-time.

At the end of the day... having a QB that is an athlete and a legitimate threat to run the ball makes every offensive scheme better. That`s just 1 more player defenses have to defend.... and most NFL defenses haven`t had to adjust to that extra player for a long time because NFL offenses were favoring a drop-back passer which is much easier to defend (right Justin Tuck).

The extra playmaker on offense... in addition to pulling offensive linemen (outnumber your opponent at the POA)... is why the Single Wing is deadly. But you have to have a legitimate passing game when you play better defenses (with better athletes than yours).

I think you hit that on the head. To be honest I didn't see a legitimate pass out of the wildcat in quite some time until the Bengals did it against us for that TD. I remember when Orakpo first came into the league, and our major argument on here was debating whether he should start at OLB or End and the risks of teaching him certain things right away vs the long haul of his career.

I think a similar case is presented here with not a lot of people worrying about the long term of this stuff on RG3. While I think he's an intelligent enough guy to learn a different offense every year, I can see the argument of why some people think Luck will be extremely better off later in his career as long as he's learning the struggles of mid to deep passing in his rookie year vs later.

That being said, RG3 has really grown minute by minute on the football field. He's really the exception to the rule. Blowing the league up in passing rating, TD to INT ratio, decision making, and completion percentage. He's also benefited extremely by a good offense design, coaching, and the play action which leaves some receivers entirely left alone. It's really an awesome thing to experience. My previous comment was really geared towards everything I've learned thus far in the NFL, but then again RG3 brings a whole different element with him. He also has a coaches wisdom of witnessing the rise and fall of players who had a similar skill set. Certainly a blast to witness as a fan!

I mean it's almost been surreal this whole experience.. following him in college, winning the heisman, praying to god we trade up, trading up, the long wait and debate of if the Colts take him instead of Luck, seeing him in training camp. I mean it's like watching a baby grow to age 18 in a matter of months.

[Bang]

I'm not so sure -- since the Niners drafted Kapernick, he of Nevada/Pistol fame, in 2011, I suspect Harbaugh was already thinking ahead.

I agree, I think he most certainly was, and seeing the success RG3 has had with it, I would bet my back teeth that it is 100% of the reason why he's now starting.

~Bang

[darrelgreenie]

I'm not so sure -- since the Niners drafted Kapernick, he of Nevada/Pistol fame, in 2011, I suspect Harbaugh was already thinking ahead.

I agree that Harbaugh had this in mind since he drafted Kaep and I bet he's probably pissed that he didn't have the cajones to do it first.

[Oldfan]

I agree that Harbaugh had this in mind since he drafted Kaep and I bet he's probably pissed that he didn't have the cajones to do it first.

I would not be surprised.

On the other hand, maybe he was waiting for some other NFL coach to be the first to give the pistol a severe test. In Business, innovation is risky. I think it's smarter to be an early adapter.

These are interesting times for football strategists. I think the pistol will make QBs going under center obsolete.

What's your guess?

[#BgMase76#]

Since football began it has followed a pattern.

Offense innovates.

defense adapts.

Offense must innovate again.

Predicting our offense won't last is like predicting I'll die someday.

eventually there will be a defense that is developed that will stop this. And then the cycle begins anew.

This is pro football. There's no such thing in pro football as a college offense. if it works against pros, it's a pro offense.

As with any defense, the challenge is simple. Stop it, or shut up. Calling it a 'college offense' after it beats you doesn't change the result

~Bang

I think you said it best in your last sentence. Degrading it after it beats is still a loss. This is list evident by two games against NYG and one w/ dallass. No one in NY will tell you its a gimmicky college scheme after he took them to the wall in the first game and vested them a second game. Rob Ryan mentioned it initially before the game. Afterwards, not so much. Maybe the fact that we put up 28 in the first half looked like a early Saturday snoozer. Besides, Morris's numbers can't be denied or disputed.

[Thiebear]

I can understand with the Redskins as the coach/analysts have described a system nobody uses with a QB that is perfect for it.

Even if you took the same sentence for Tom he's throwing 50 touchdowns after defense' had years to adapt

Seems easy to me: You can pick the Great teams by their QBR and media interaction (the Greatest do both). even Baugh at 91 was a great interview.

[skinny21]

One of the things I took from this article (and a discussion of Chip Kelly in a different thread) is the practice tempo. If we were able to add a bunch of practice reps by increasing the tempo, we could afford to give Cousins more reps.

I recall Michael Lombardi on one of the first HTTR podcasts talking about the fact that having two rookies and limited reps to go around meant Cousins development would be 'stunted' (or something along those lines). I'm not sure of the difficulties involved with the increased tempo, but it seems like it could be hugely beneficial to our team, particularly since our team has a bunch of youngsters (Griffin and Cousins being the most notable of course).

[SteveFromYellowstone]

The "college offense" and " can't make reads" arguments against RG3 are just code words for he is not white. Notice how Andrew Luck is always portrayed as "hardworking" and "he is asked to do more" (which he isn't, just because you refuse to throw dump off passes doesn't mean you 'do more') and all these other bs excuses.

Also our offense is going to be more difficult to adapt to than most innovative offenses. The defense cannot tell what we are doing and have to play on their heels until they figure out whats going on. Unless they find a cue to tell them if RG3 is faking or not, I don't see how they can decide if they should commit to the run or pass. With Brady's offense, you often know exactly what he is doing but it's just so damn difficult to stop. That's the key difference between both of our offenses

[Riggo-toni]

The "college offense" and " can't make reads" arguments against RG3 are just code words for he is not white.

Wait, that can't be it...I mean, ESPN is reporting he's not even a real brother.

Gibbs Counter-Trey play which won Superbowls was copied from a play one of the Skins coaches saw run by some small town college.

[zoony]

Wait, that can't be it...I mean, ESPN is reporting he's not even a real brother.

Gibbs Counter-Trey play which won Superbowls was copied from a play one of the Skins coaches saw run by some small town college.

I thought it was Nebraska or Oklahoma

Anyways, Peyton Manning built an entire nfl career based on a play action fake followed by a pass over top of the linebackers. Guess he's a college guy too

[Oldfan]

I thought it was Nebraska or Oklahoma...

Tom Osborne, Nebraska

[Riggo-toni]

Tom Osborne, Nebraska

Okay....isn't U of Nebraska in some small town?

[zoony]

Okay....isn't U of Nebraska in some small town?

Yah but it's a university not a college. :nutkick:

[darrelgreenie]

I would not be surprised.

On the other hand, maybe he was waiting for some other NFL coach to be the first to give the pistol a severe test. In Business, innovation is risky. I think it's smarter to be an early adapter.

These are interesting times for football strategists. I think the pistol will make QBs going under center obsolete.

What's your guess?

I think its essential to a maintian a semblance of run/pass balance in any formation. Without the benefit of a mobile QB I think its difficult for shotgun offenses, especially when the score or other factors force them into must pass situations, to maintain that balance. I believe the Pistol will help former shotgun offenses maintain some run/pass balance.

Awhile back you had a thread about the future of NFL offenses. And I think we're seeing college concepts like read-option, Pistol and no-huddle using 1-word terminology make their way into the NFL as the QBs schooled on the concepts matriculate into the NFL.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I'm not so sure -- since the Niners drafted Kapernick, he of Nevada/Pistol fame, in 2011, I suspect Harbaugh was already thinking ahead.

Oh I have no doubts that Harbaugh was intrigued by what CK could do running the ball. In fact, unless I'm making this up, I believe he got some snaps last year. But, Harbaugh wasn't confident enough to bench his QB and play Kaepernick until the Redskins were having ridiculous, sustained success with the zone read this season.

[Riggo-toni]

Yah but it's a university not a college. :nutkick:

Dammit!!! Got me!