We need to draft 2 QBs

[Jumbo]

GHH, I appreciate that effort, though there were elements of my suggested condition not well addressed, but now people can take each of those and more extensively argue the quality of each specific assertion on either side. Right now it's still a premise (but much better defined) of "guessing" whether player x will turn out more useful down the road than player y, but we can still argue more intelligently (when actual players are provided as you have now done) as to likelihood.

Obviously, the FO knew of all those guys and thought differently. Burden is on we critics, not the proven pros (keeping in mind I mean this specific FO), who were utilizing very thorough and competent, experienced, professional methodology and with vastly more info and staff than out individual noggins contain (again, not an "appeal to authority" argument as in formal logic, but just plain old logic period--I never use the phrase "common sense" )

I.E., I had massie, and now think the FO made a better choice than I by a margin, as I knew far less of massie's potential shortcomings than ideal and I knew very little of Cousins and they knew of him and had him very positively rated. And the more I pursued the analysis the more I see it like the FO in this comparisons. I have been doing the same with some others we could have picked, just to sharpen my own game, including a couple you mentioned.

[Bang]

well i mean to edit that post but my point still stands. u need a elite qb now and your season is over if your top qb goes down

Joey T is my favorite Redskins QB and one of my favorite players. I just can't ever sit idly by and see him called mediocre.

~Bang

[SKINSFAN87]

I'm all for bring in a vet, but drafting another QB? nah.

We made it through 2011 with two QBs. I say bring back Rex to backup RG3.

You have to bring in someone else to back up rg3 for the future because rex has proven that he can't get it done. Rex is on a one year lease for tutoring and then will be cut after this season. If anything cousins will bring the skins some value should a another team want to trade for him.

[Jumbo]

Come on man. Everyone knows the fourth round is where all the starters are.

If you can't draft an all-pro in the 4th, you simply aren't doing your job.

~Bang

People who think I'm "tough" on posters as a mod would love to see what others (including themselves) would be like in the role, especially after a couple years.

[2cents]

A few examples Jumbo who went in the fourth after the Cousins pick at 102:

The Steelers took Alaneda Ta'amu at 109. The same Steelers who run the same D as ours take their NT for the next ten years. Not a desperate position of need, but a starter right there.

RGIII's center at Baylor Philip Blake went at 108 to Denver. A massive position of need, sweetened somewhat by the UFA pick-up but still relative.

Bobby Massie went at 112 to Arizona. Quality starting RT. another major area of concern, again sweetened by Compton, but all relative.

Corners, a serious area of need: We could of tried to trade up one spot with Denver for Omar Bolden. Coty Sensabaugh went at 115 to TN. Brandon Boykin at 123 to Philly. Btooks a pick after to Buffalo. We picked up two 7th round corners, but their chances of having an effect are obviously less than these. (Although Minnifield was a steal undrafted potentially.).

James-Michael Johnson at ILB.

All guys who could well of contributed greatly, if not potentially started this year.

Hail.

Sorry, but I think it is rather flip to just toss out that we made a mistake and point to the Steelers got "thier NT for the next 10 years with the pick". There is no reasonable way you can say one day after the draft that that guy will be thier NT for a decade. That is just a large large leap. Sorry.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

GHH, I appreciate that effort, though there were elements of my suggested condition not well addressed .....

True, I did take the liberty of presuming it went without saying the guys we currently have at positions like RT and corner who could be improved upon with perspective draftees, and the differences in ability therein.

My bad.

Hail.

[Jumbo]

True, I did take the liberty of presuming it went without saying the guys we currently have at positions like RT and corner who could be improved upon with perspective draftees.

My bad.

Hail.

Hey, though there's a little more to it than that, you stepped up to the plate, with zero spazzing, and did your part. I consider that a win for the board.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Sorry, but I think it is rather flip to just toss out that we made a mistake and point to the Steelers got "thier NT for the next 10 years with the pick". There is no reasonable way you can say one day after the draft that that guy will be thier NT for a decade. That is just a large large leap. Sorry.

That's what everyone's doing at this point isn't it, 'speculating?' Cousins being a solid back-up or better in the pro's is similar speculation.

But your points duly noted. How about I rephrase to the Steelers 'drafting a guy they think will potentially be their NT for the coming years?'

Hail.

[Chump Bailey]

But what trade value justify's a 4th rounder who won't contribute? All things being equal, he won't see any playing time outside of pre-season. And he was far from a stellar collegiate QB to start with. A lot of quality, but very inconsistent.

Honestly haven't seen one compelling argument that justify's this pick for this team.

Hail.

I'm just thinking perhaps there might be a QB needy team next season that had a decent grade on Cousins. We may be able to move him. I'm just spitballing.

[HailGreen28]

I am finding the Cousins pick interesting in that it's serving as another kind of half-assed litmus test.

Most of the posters I see energetically upset about the pick are either using rather unintelligent to outright stupid arguments (whether worded well or poorly) and some are also among the people I tend to not think much of football-opinion-wise anyway.

It gives me that sense many of us get I imagine under similar circumstance--the one of when noting someone whose posts you usually don't think much of, take an opposing side to you, it confirms you must be on the right track. :pfft:

I think people who really want to make a solid case the pick was such an obviously bad move should name the player that was available that they think should have taken, then argue the likely value of that guy at that position vs. who's currently on the team against the idea of Cousins @ QB, and then compare the two choices. That would be the proper way to make that argument, and then see if it passes muster as "better thinking than what the FO showed."

It's fairly easy to make a case for the pick, shocking as though that must read to some of the critics. It wasn't my choice at the time, but I quickly saw the value to it, especially after getting deeper into the info on Cousins.

In tournament chess there's a term called "potzers"--the term has been generalized from its earliest form to often describe guys who have never proved themselves as competent in the tournament-level game, but do play at it, read and talk about it, and are known to regularly stand around and kibitz oh-so-assuredly over the games and players who are competing at the top level.

Tossing around cliche-based "arguments" and bromides, and even doing that in an often misused manner, is not making a solid argument, nor is emotionally-driven ranting. Nor is taking cliches and low-grade "reasoning" and dressing them up in a well-worded post (though at least those show some appreciated effort in construction). This all, however, is a staple of message boards. And much of it is the work of potzers.

OK, let's go down the list of guys taken immediately after Kirk "kissing" Cousins. I bolded the guys who based on the same generic ratings everybody is looking at, would be better picks than Cousins. Would appreciate the more knowledgeable posters correcting me for or against certain players.

Alexander Frank DE Oklahoma - said to be more of a 4-3 DE, probably not a good alternative for us.

Joe Adams WR Arkansas - with all the WR we have, not good pick either

Nigel Brandham OLB FSU - Now we have someone better than Cousins. A project, but could see playing time behind Rak and Kerrigan now, and we have depth where we should build it, and eventually WOULD be a starter. Unlike Cousins who if all goes well will hold nothing but a clipboard for us.

Robert Turbin RB Utah St - Also a better pick. If Shanny's going to get an RB sometime, why not spend a 4th rder here for a guy that could actually earn playing time unlike Cousins?

Devon Wiley WR Frenso St - pass like previous WR

Phillip Blake C Baylor - Hey, RG3's center! Maybe start for us right away, maybe not over Montgomery, but we need interior OL depth anyways.

Alameda Ta'amu NT Washington(U) - OK we could have him with our #109 instead of #102, but he'd still be a better pick if we really run a Steeler type D rather than a Phillips type D. Big guy, maybe too big, immobile guy that eats the center and a guard every play. If Haslett has been wanting a blob in the middle, he's definitely a better pick than Cousins. If not, maybe not.

Other worthy of mention. Robinson was a better pick for us than Cousins, so I'm saying take Robinson at #102 and a guy like the guys below at #109.

Bobby Massie - big OT over backup QB? Yes, please! Look how we struggled to fill that spot last season, and did little to address it since.

Kyle Wilber - Taken by the Cowpukes before Robinson. Projected OLB but quick guy who actually sheds blocks at 2nd level, could move him inside like Robinson. Or one of them could be OLB.

Brandon Boykin - A small CB with great technique and speed? Yes, please! Haven't we been begging for a CB that won't get flat out burned?

So I count 6 guys that would be a better pick than Cousins, 7 if Haslett could use a blob in the middle. Anybody think Cousins is the best pick we could have made there?

[Jumbo]

You're a couple posts behind there, HG28, but we're moving in a better direction discussion wise.

We're getting closer to a "our FO picked Cousins but I think "x" (and then name ONE specific guy--your #1 there @ 102--and why) would be better based on my analysis."

Certainly when you run down a whole list as the "alternative choice" it "sounds" like a stronger point is being made, but its really unfairly arguing how a whole group of people should be counted (and they are considered individually) when you only can take one of them. It's one of the "mental errors" I see occuring in many "anti" arguments (not necessarily yours).

So ya pick your best single candidate and explain why it trumps the choice of Cousins.

I understand you were actually claiming any of the six would be a better choice so the FO must have had its head way up its ass to miss six (at minimum in your view) better choices, so I got that.

Mine had been Massie, but I conceded I like this pick better (and have previously stated why) even though he wasn't even on my list.

For now, I'll leave the other 5 to people who feel differently than you and have the desire to respond. A couple of them I would have to look at more than I did earlier before arguing more against them (if I felt that was appropriate).

[Epochalypse]

I went back and looked at the three drafts prior to this year, 2009, 2010, and 2011.

I looked at all the DBs taken fourth round and later.

I looked at all the QBs taken fourth round and later.

There are a lot more QBs that stuck with their team and played significant roles on their teams then DBs percentage wise. By a long shot.

[HailGreen28]

You're a couple posts behind there, HG28, but we're moving in a better direction discussion wise.

We're getting closer to a "our FO picked Cousins but I think "x" (and then name ONE specific guy--your #1 there @ 102--and why) would be better based on my analysis."

Certainly when you run down a whole list as the "alternative choice" it "sounds" like a stronger point is being made, but its really unfairly arguing how a whole group of people should be counted (and they are considered individually) when you only can take one of them. It's one of then many "mental errors" I see occuring in many "anti" arguments.

So ya pick your best single candidate and explain why it trumps the choice of Cousins.

Mine had been Massie, but I conceded I like this pick better (and have previously stated why) even though he wasn't even on my list.

Appreciate it. My point is that ANY of the 6-7 guys I listed would be better than Cousins. Seriously, EACH of them is better, and I said why in my post.

One assumption I made is that we would take Robinson with our #102, and not trade down with the Steelers with our #109. So I'm saying any one of the guys I listed and Robinson (before or after my guy) would have been much better than Cousins and Robinson.

OK. How about Nigel Brandham. A guy who gets playing time now, at maybe the premier position in our defense, and has +++ chances of getting a starting job over Cousins.

[Duckus]

While I also question taking a QB in the 4th round over other positions (OT or DB), lets not pretend like we know which players in the 4th round will have any impact in the NFL. We are all speculating wildly.

I see posts every year on ES that list out dozens of players we missed taking in later rounds. 99% of those players are out of the league in 1-2 years.

[Jumbo]

Appreciate it. My point is that ANY of the 6-7 guys I listed would be better than Cousins. Seriously, EACH of them is better, and I said why in my post.

One assumption I made is that we would take Robinson with our #102, and not trade down with the Steelers with our #109. So I'm saying any one of the guys I listed and Robinson (before or after my guy) would have been much better than Cousins and Robinson.

I did edit my post, too, amigo, to make it more carefully and properly applicable to yours.

[Bang]

People who think I'm "tough" on posters as a mod would love to see what others (including themselves) would be like in the role, especially after a couple years.

Get the hell offa my lawn, pinhead!

This is why I am not ever to be considered for modship.

Your fuse is much longer than mine. (And as a shrink, i'm sure that comment alone is worth it's weight in gold.)

~Bang

[PCS]

Get the hell offa my lawn, pinhead!

This is why I am not ever to be considered for modship.

Your fuse is much longer than mine. (And as a shrink, i'm sure that comment alone is worth it's weight in gold.)

~Bang

Things would be quiet on here at times like this,as about 87% of the board would be banned.

[Jumbo]

While I also question taking a QB in the 4th round over other positions (OT or DB), lets not pretend like we know which players in the 4th round will have any impact in the NFL. We are all speculating wildly.

I see posts every year on ES that list out dozens of players we missed taking in later rounds. 99% of those players are out of the league in 1-2 years.

It's one reason I claim we critics have the burden. When you get an inside look at what an FO like ours and other quality FOs bring to a draft board and then compare it to our personal vast and awesome wisdom, the healthy personality feels a bit more humble and open-minded.

Not that being glandular and self-inflating doesn't have its place on a message board, and we all know that either by brains, happenstance, or blind luck, we do sometimes turn out to be smarter than those pro guys.

I am usually much more confident going up against other football-savvy mb posters than the pros, because in one turff I have a long and well established track record of being pretty successful and in the other...not. :pfft:

[HailGreen28]

I did edit my post, too, amigo, to make it more carefully and properly applicable to yours.

You're cool, I had to remember what I'm trying to learn in Remedial Reading Comprehension 101 and edit again to actually pick one player to debate.

[Epochalypse]

Robert Turbin RB Utah St - I wasn't sold on taking any RBs especially not in the fourth, and I like Turbin. But we got Alfred Morris later in the draft, similar makeup. Had two redshirt years due to injuries, not good at the RB spot. Worth keeping an eye on.

Phillip Blake C Baylor - He'll be 27 yrs old this year. He is more of a power scheme C, not a ZBS.

Alameda Ta'amu NT Washington(U) - This is one to keep an eye on going forward. I like Cofield and think he'll be even better with a full offseason working at being a 3-4 NT as opposed to spending the lockout expecting to be signed to play as a 4-3 DT.

Bobby Massie - As others pointed out, Massie was a horrible fit for our ZBS. No lateral quickness.

Kyle Wilber - Not sure backup OLB is more important than backup QB. Could be worth watching to see if he develops into something. Hope he doesn't since he's a Cowboy now.

Brandon Boykin - Jumbo has his Massie, this was my guy I would have preferred. I'm really hoping he doesn't pan out since he's an Eagle now, but I really thought we'd do well taking a slot CB. Shanny felt otherwise. Again I hope I was wrong about him.

[NavyDave]

I still do not understand the whining about drafting a QB to replace Gross, man as RG3's backup when he is unable to play all 16 games. Didn't RG3 have only one season in college where he played the entire season?

Drafting a franchise QB and a backup QB so the team doesn't suffer like the Colts did when Peyton went down should be seen as a smart move.

[NOtoDC]

Didn't see this posted, but Don Banks says the move makes no sense:

"The Redskins simply aren't in the position to take that sort of nonessential gamble at this point in the Mike Shanahan coaching era, and I don't care how highly they had Cousins graded, it's at best sending a confusing and mixed message just when Washington seemed to at last have a clarity of vision. This was going to be RG3's team, RG3's town, and RG3's time. Case closed. Or not." He also notes that when the Falcons drafted Schaub Vick was an entrenched starter for 4 yrs.

Link:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/don_banks/04/28/nfl.draft.day3/index.html#ixzz1tS1wDmTo

[Est.1974]

This move may even free up a roster spot from 2013 onwards.

Rex sticks around this year until RG3 and Cousins are one year into life in DC.

Then, Shanny goes back to his known liking for 2 QB's in the 53, safe in the knowledge he has those 2 guys in here for the meduim term.

Hey, maybe he drafts another QB next year later in the draft to stash on the PS in 2013

[Epochalypse]

Didn't see this posted, but Don Banks says the move makes no sense:

"The Redskins simply aren't in the position to take that sort of nonessential gamble at this point in the Mike Shanahan coaching era, and I don't care how highly they had Cousins graded, it's at best sending a confusing and mixed message just when Washington seemed to at last have a clarity of vision. This was going to be RG3's team, RG3's town, and RG3's time. Case closed. Or not." He also notes that when the Falcons drafted Schaub Vick was an entrenched starter for 4 yrs.

Link:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/don_banks/04/28/nfl.draft.day3/index.html#ixzz1tS1wDmTo

Don Banks is a writer. Don Banks frankly has no clue how to build an NFL team.

[Mad Mike]

Obviously, the FO knew of all those guys and thought differently. Burden is on we critics, not the proven pros (keeping in mind I mean this specific FO), who were utilizing very thorough and competent, experienced, professional methodology and with vastly more info and staff than out individual noggins contain (again, not an "appeal to authority" argument as in formal logic, but just plain old logic period--I never use the phrase "common sense" )

I.E., I had massie, and now think the FO made a better choice than I by a margin, as I knew far less of massie's potential shortcomings than ideal and I knew very little of Cousins and they knew of him and had him very positively rated. And the more I pursued the analysis the more I see it like the FO in this comparisons. I have been doing the same with some others we could have picked, just to sharpen my own game, including a couple you mentioned.

Well put though a bit verbose.

Translation for those who don't speak Jumboese... (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Jumbo)

Shanahan and company have FAR more resources than we as fans to grade potential picks and if we can be open minded, it usually shows once all of the chips are on the table.

___________________________________

As for drafting Cousins, for those who dont "get it"... look at the complete collapse Indi had without Manning. As Casserly put it... "What is the most important position on the team? Quarterback. What is the second most important position on your team? Backup Quarterback."

As much as we should improve this year, our real run at a superbowl wont come until the following season, at which time we may be very thankful to have someone like Cousins on board with a year under his belt should RG3 go down for a game or two.