Poll: Do you honestly believe that Shanahan having one less win than Zorn after 2 seasons means anything in the grand scheme?

[#98QBKiller]

It's only one indicator but another losing season in 2012 and it would be hard to justify a 2013 return for Shanahan. It will take a Cam Newtonish showing from the rookie QB IMO, and some promise from the D to earn him another return in that scenario.

[darrelgreenie]

It's only one indicator but another losing season in 2012 and it would be hard to justify a 2013 return for Shanahan. It will take a Cam Newtonish showing from the rookie QB IMO, and some promise from the D to earn him another return in that scenario.

I don't think well see another Cam Newtonesque rookie season for another few decades.

But, I see your point.

[Epochalypse]

The difference between the two was that Zorn was in win-now mode, and didn't have the leash to build up the team. Even Gibbs 2.0 was win-now. That's why our drafts were always thin and weak, we relied on vets to squeeze out one more shot at getting to the playoffs, and when we did we quickly bowed out. Years and years of that decimated our foundation as an organization. Shanahan, on th other hand, had the reputation to withstand the bad records while doing it the right way. So Zorn and Cerrato going for win-now achieved one more victory than Shanahan rebuilding.

Even if Shanahan fails (which I don't think he will and sincerely hope doesn't happen) Snyder will have proven to his replacement that he can give a head coach time. If we had fired Shanny after two seasons, who in their right mind would come in knowing they had to be playoff bound in two seasons or be gone, especially knowing a HOF coach and another 2 time Super Bowl winner couldn't do it?

[THEREALTOR1]

o Zorn actually elevated the play of his QB

You know i've actually been thinking about our fence post turtle (ie Zorn), and how when he was first hired he was touted as being this former NFL QB, with a great mind for scheming, but ultimately just a super smart guy that knows everything there is to know about "the NFL QB". Whats bothered me more than anything is why did he never draft his QB to mold? Sure he drafted he who shall not be named, and obviously attempted to work his magic on Soup, but for being such a QB guru, how come by the end of his first year, didn't he draft (or even bring in thru FA) a young impressionable supersmart QB in the mold of himself, who he could tutor and nurture and ultimately turn him into his(and the Redskins) saving grace. Already in year 2 (and even last year) many people are saying that if we don't grab a franchise QB, MS will at least bring in a QB project that he and KS can mold into their perfect system QB, yet this never seemed to be an issue back when Zorny was here? I just find it curious now in hindsigt. Any thoughts?

[Laxpunk2006]

You know i've actually been thinking about our fence post turtle (ie Zorn), and how when he was first hired he was touted as being this former NFL QB, with a great mind for scheming, but ultimately just a super smart guy that knows everything there is to know about "the NFL QB". Whats bothered me more than anything is why did he never draft his QB to mold? Sure he drafted he who shall not be named, and obviously attempted to work his magic on Soup, but for being such a QB guru, how come by the end of his first year, didn't he draft (or even bring in thru FA) a young impressionable supersmart QB in the mold of himself, who he could tutor and nurture and ultimately turn him into his(and the Redskins) saving grace. Already in year 2 (and even last year) many people are saying that if we don't grab a franchise QB, MS will at least bring in a QB project that he and KS can mold into their perfect system QB, yet this never seemed to be an issue back when Zorny was here? I just find it curious now in hindsigt. Any thoughts?

Zorn never had the leash to do so. He was hired under the conditions that he would work with Campbell, not that he would go and draft someone else. I believe that was one of the issues preventing Williams from getting the job.

[THEREALTOR1]

Zorn never had the leash to do so. He was hired under the conditions that he would work with Campbell, not that he would go and draft someone else. I believe that was one of the issues preventing Williams from getting the job.

Well then I'd say thats another good example of exactly how this team has done complete 180 from where we were just a few short years ago.

[Destino]

Comparing a Superbowl winner to a Zorn? He was a QB coach that came in expecting to run the offense and instead ended up as the hood ornament on Vinny's run away truck. He was a bad coach in an even worse situation. Plus, swinging gate.

Shanahan on the other hand is a gangsta. Snyder flew out to his ranch and essentially set about the task of convincing Mike to save his team. He demanded and received full control, a lucrative 5 year deal, and even secured his son a job that naturally leads to a head coaching opportunity if things work out.

One more win? Shanahan finished year two with a job. Game over.

[Jumbo]

^^^ That's a great post

I'm just picturing Mike throwing up a sign

[wilco_holland]

Problem with Zorn is that he is a great guy only had limited experience. He was wearing way to many hats, Vinny and Dan should never have agreed with that.

If he would have stept in a Mike Tomlin type of situation (Off and D# already in place) then I think he could be a pretty solid HC. I believe that Dan and Vinny totally abused Zorn...that pisses me off because after Gibbs he is the coach I like the most.

...kinda helps that there isn´t a bingo caller in the booth ;P

[darrelgreenie]

Whats bothered me more than anything is why did he never draft his QB to mold?....yet this never seemed to be an issue back when Zorny was here? I just find it curious now in hindsigt. Any thoughts?

Taking an objective view of the QB situation, which might be difficult for someone that refers to Jason Campbell as 'soup', the QB play wasn't the major issue with Zorn's team.

In fact the QB play has gotten worse each season Zorn has been gone if you recall Campbell was a top 15 QB by QB rating. (these other metrics have dropped: RZ/3rd down conversion/turnovers)

The obvious answer is that there were much more pressing needs like OL, OL, OL, RB and WR that Vinnie/Snyder still failed to address.

[HigSkin]

Gibbs era - bring in older, high character vets with average talent and sprinkle in a few rooks.

Shanny era - bring in high character youngins' with leadership qualities, above average talent, develop them from PS>ST's and then let them play.

I'll take the Shanny era.

[Epochalypse]

Taking an objective view of the QB situation, which might be difficult for someone that refers to Jason Campbell as 'soup', the QB play wasn't the major issue with Zorn's team.

In fact the QB play has gotten worse each season Zorn has been gone if you recall Campbell was a top 15 QB by QB rating. (these other metrics have dropped: RZ/3rd down conversion/turnovers)

The obvious answer is that there were much more pressing needs like OL, OL, OL, RB and WR that Vinnie/Snyder still failed to address.

The more obvious answer is that taking a highly rated QB would have bought Zorn more time and Cerrato wasn't going to allow Zorn that opportunity. Plus drafting a QB high would not have been a win now move, and Cerrato don't play that.

[balonywolf]

I think it's important that Mike's just had his worst season ever. I don't know that it means anything as the OP intended, but it does mean something. Like so many have said, Shanny's still dealing with the residual effects of not just Zorn, not just Gibbs, but Dan Snyder's entire tenure as owner and all the s**t that's come with it. Not to mention the injuries this season. Looking at the point margins for some of our losses (only a combined 7 pts for both Dallas games puts us at 4-2 in NFC East), our season could've been quite different. What I see the most out of this season is Mike weeding out all of the crap. That was evident the first time he laid down the law with Haynesworth at camp in 2010.

I hope this post is somewhat coherent. It's early and I just got out of the gym, so I'm a little jittery. I guess the bottom line point I'm trying to make is, yes, the record after two years is important, but not for Shanny. It's significant of the crap he's inherited, and the turnaround we're about to see coming.

[Wyvern]

Under Shanahan/Allen, the Redskins have been run along the more traditional NFL franchise lines. (Maybe with more power than usual concentrated in the Head Coach). Shanahan gets to pick his players, coaches, system, drafts, etc

In contrast, Zorn was dropped into a Snyder/Cerrato front office that was racked with major power-fluctuations after Gibbs retired,

Unexpectedly elevated to Head Coach, Zorn was denied the power needed to fulfill that role properly. He inherited the Gibbs coaching staff and Gibbs' players and was asked to make it all fit into a WCO. The front office never really supported him --rather they contributed to the unraveling of what little authority Zorn had as Head Coach.

The front office probably viewed Zorn as a transitional solution at best. (Strangely, with the right circumstances (and QB), he could have been a decent offensive coordinator, and maybe one day ...a Head Coach). In contrast, Shanahan already is the unquestioned Head Coach of the Redskins, and has been given the power he needs to drive the rebuild of the franchise.

It's not about the number of wins and losses.

[Darrell Green Fan]

I am so sick of the record comparisons. Zorn inherited a playoff team. Shanny inherited a 4-12 team that was the oldest in the league, had no young talent, a horrible cap situation and lacking draft picks.

[Skinzfever2010]

So now we can't compare Super Bowl winning coaches to other coaches in the NFL? Its funny I don't ever recall that being a rule. There were tons of experts and fans who compared Gibbs to several coaches who were ringless during his second campaign as head coach.

What about when Mike Ditka came back to coach the woful New Orleans Saints in 1997? When things weren't working out he was compared to other coaches who were having success at the time that hadn't won anything.

These frivolous double standards should be reexamined. You won the Super Bowl 14 years ago with Hall of Fame QB play, RB play, and TE play. These are different days and times.

[Mursilis]

I want to know how many of you honestly believe that Shanahan having one less win than Zorn did after 2 years is any kind of indicator of his abilities as coach of the this team over the long-term.

So I got to thinking about this point, and I remembered - you know who else had 1 more win than Shanahan after two seasons? Spurrier. Of course, after he finished 5-11 in his second year, it was pretty clear he had lost the team, and seemed to be in way over his head without any clue as to how to fix things. At the end of the 2003 season, I remember feeling as dejected as a fan as I'd ever felt about this team in a long, long time, thinking they were going to be as bad or worse in 2004 as they had been in 2003. Luckily, the Ol' Ball Coach also himself realized that he wasn't fit for the pro game, and resigned. Coming off this 5-11 season, I'm disappointed, but I honestly think that if Shanahan can find a good-to-great QB, this team can be a playoff contender next year. I'm cautiously optimistic following this season, whereas I was completely pessimistic following the 2003 debacle.

---------- Post added January-5th-2012 at 07:57 AM ----------

I am so sick of the record comparisons. Zorn inherited a playoff team. Shanny inherited a 4-12 team that was the oldest in the league, had no young talent, a horrible cap situation and lacking draft picks.

Orakpo, Rogers, Landry, and Davis weren't young talent? Heck, even though Campbell was only average, his 2009 year was better than any QB brought in by Shanahan so far. I'm so sick of people pretending Shanahan took over the 2008 Lions.

[THEREALTOR1]

Taking an objective view of the QB situation, which might be difficult for someone that refers to Jason Campbell as 'soup', the QB play wasn't the major issue with Zorn's team.

In fact the QB play has gotten worse each season Zorn has been gone if you recall Campbell was a top 15 QB by QB rating. (these other metrics have dropped: RZ/3rd down conversion/turnovers)

The obvious answer is that there were much more pressing needs like OL, OL, OL, RB and WR that Vinnie/Snyder still failed to address.

Well I'll try to respond coherently, but uh, duh, I don't know if I can or not being I referred to a former QB by his nickname instead of his given birthname. Its obvious you've spent to much time in the JC -vs - anyone? threads that its jaded you, and unless you're related to Mike Greenberg, I'd prefer not to hear **** about nicknames from somebody with the username "Darrelgreenie". Fact of the matter is, you still haven't answered my question. Are you saying that a QB guru, as Zorn was touted to be, felt that his 15th ranked QB was sufficient enough to be succesful with, and that his "project QB" was CB15 (is that alright, or do I have to refer to him by his name as well as i'd prefer not to type that in)? He's wasn't touted as a offensive genius, or creator of great RB's, he was touted as a QB genius, so why didn't he at least try to bring in someone who could operate his WCO more effectively? Even if he brought in someone like Rex, he would've probably had more success than he did with Mr. Jason Campbell (better?).

As far as your theory about the other positions on the O that required so much attention, here's the draft list for 08' & 09':

08'

2 3 34 Devin Thomas WR Michigan State

2 17 48 Fred Davis TE Southern California

2 20 51 Malcolm Kelly WR Oklahoma

3 33 96 Chad Rinehart G Northern Iowa

4 25 124 Justin Tryon CB Arizona State

6 2 168 Durant Brooks P Georgia Tech

6 14 180 Kareem Moore S Nicholls State

6 20 186 Colt Brennan QB Hawaii

7 35 242 Rob Jackson DE Kansas State

7 42 249 Chris Horton S UCLA

09'

1 13 13 Brian Orakpo DE Texas

3 16 80 Kevin Barnes CB Maryland

5 22 158 Cody Glenn LB Nebraska

6 13 186 Robert Henson LB Texas Christian

7 12 221 Eddie Williams TE Idaho

7 34 243 Marko Mitchell WR Nevada

As far JC's QB ranking and the play since then, fine i'll give you all of that whatever you want to hear or believe, i'm not going to turn this thread into anymore of a JC thread than it already has, but you know as well as I do that a 2 yd completion on 1st,2nd,3rd, (and saddly sometimes 4th down), still shows up as 4 for 4 on the stat sheet. So much as I catch **** for using stats to try to emphasize a point on here, i'm going to turn the tables on you on this one (no offense), and simply say that JC isn't a QB that was built and designed to run a WCO effectively.

The more obvious answer is that taking a highly rated QB would have bought Zorn more time and Cerrato wasn't going to allow Zorn that opportunity. Plus drafting a QB high would not have been a win now move, and Cerrato don't play that.

Now this I can buy. I can see this, to an extent, maybe Zorn said to them, "hey I need a QB I can mold and fit into my system, but its going to take some time", and the response was "well I hope he looks good in brown and orange cause thats the uniform he'll be wearing"

Zorn was a transitional solution at best -- and with the right circumstances (and QB), he could have been a decent offensive coordinator, and maybe one day a Head Coach. In contrast, Shanahan already is the unquestioned Head Coachof the Redskins, and has been given the power he needs to drive the rebuild of the franchise.

I agree Wyvern, hence the fence post turtle reference (which ironically doesn't seem to push some peoples' buttons as opposed to other nicknames being thrown around )

I have to wonder that even if Zorn wasn't allowed to draft a QB to mold, that even if he'd gone after a free agent (even if he had to sell it to the FO as a backup QB to replace TC), but someone more familiar and built to fit in his WCO, if he wouldn't have had more success, and who knows possibly even bought himself some more time. I don't know those cards might have already been dealt, but it would've been curious to see how even an RG would've perhaps run a Jim Zorn offense :whoknows:

[Redskins Life]

I agree Wyvern, hence the fence post turtle reference (which ironically doesn't seem to push some peoples' buttons as opposed to other nicknames being thrown around )

I have to wonder that even if Zorn wasn't allowed to draft a QB to mold, that even if he'd gone after a free agent (even if he had to sell it to the FO as a backup QB to replace TC), but someone more familiar and built to fit in his WCO, if he wouldn't have had more success, and who knows possibly even bought himself some more time. I don't know those cards might have already been dealt, but it would've been curious to see how even an RG would've perhaps run a Jim Zorn offense :whoknows:

I do think that Zorn was smart enough to realize that he was hired specifically to get the Jason Campbell project to work, and that he didn't have much of a choice in the matter or time. Though, it is interesting that the team did go after Cutler the way it is reported that they did. It does make one think that Zorn, and even Vinny and Snyder at that point, knew they were limited with Jason Campbell. I would have to assume that with Cutler, Vinny saw his win now plan coming to fruition, whereas allowing Zorn to bring in a rookie was not part of the plan; it would take too long. So, with the Bears getting Cutler, Campbell was the only option they had.

[wildbill1952]

I guess you could count me as a member of the "Zorn wasn't really that bad" crowd. Zorn was hamstrung by whoever it was that was responsible for the 2008 draft. (I think it was Vinny, but I don't want to go into that argument again.) After the "collapse" of the first season, going from 6-2 to 2-6 over the remainder of the season, the entire coaching staff agreed it was the lack of depth as well as talent on the Oline. The next year, nothing was done in the draft or FA to address it. Nothing other than accidentally getting Dockery back. The results were the 4-12 2009 season. Predicted by everyone but the people responsible for a draft where needs of the team and pleas of the coaches went ignored by the personnel department. To "fix" it, the same department hamstrung their coach and screwed up anything that might have been salvaged from a team with no OLine. It wasn't Zorn. It was whoever decided to put that travesty of managerial incompetence on the field. Again, not naming names to avoid re-hashing old arguments.

When Shanahan came in, it wasn't a lot different from a personnel standpoint, although at least his presence fixed the managerial debacle. His first pick had to be left tackle. The team was old, did not have a full complement of draft picks and few options but to rebuild. It's not a matter of him being worse. It's a matter of what Shanahan, and Zorn, had to work with. Almost nothing.

[paloosa]

I voted no because Zorn was Snyder's Sparano. He gave him the reins because he didn't have the guy he wanted at the time. But he also had a bad GM in Cerrato pulling the strings. So Zorn was not going to suceed because of Cerrato. So when Cerrato was fired and Allen hired it was the start of the end of Zorn because the agreement for Allen to be hired was that Zorn be fired and Shanahan be his successor after the season. Zorn could have won the rest of his games after the Allen hiring and he still would have been replaced. So Allen and Shanahan inherited a badly run organization with some ME first players and guys just coming to games to collect paychecks. Shanahan didn't think his roster was as bad as it was and he didn't weed out all the "bad apples" as he thought. This offseason will consist of more changes and some that may be surprising. Allen and Shanahan have drafted or brought in their core players.After this offseason and draft the players Shanahan wants will be complete. So I see this team with some newly added pieces in the right area will make this team a contender. So the records of Zorn vs Shanahan is not an indicator of anything but a lack of confidence in Zorn

[justice98]

Back to Zorn.

I find the comparison to Zorn interesting because:

o Zorn was working with less talent

o Zorn had no say in with the coaching staff (in year 1)

o Zorn's personnel decisions were made by read hamstrung by the FO=Vincent Cerratto (as a

proxy) for Dan Synder; and in year 2 Zorn was actively being undermined by the 'FO'

o Zorn actually elevated the play of his QB

o Despite the above handicaps the Zorn/Sherm offense has been better in the important metrics RZ scoring/3rd down conversions/fewer turnovers

I agree with this, Zorn really had more reason to not be successful, IMO.

[oldskoolskins]

Eight people voted yes, Really!!! Are you not paying attention at all to what has transpired in the past two years? The roster has turned over almost completely, we are younger at almost every position, yes we need a QB and another good draft and a full offseason, but this team is lightyears ahead of Zorns 4-12 debacle of a team.

Btw, do you really think that a 2 time Super Bowl champion coach is no better than Zorn who couldn't even keep his job with the Ravens as a position coach.

Man i'm glad that the people who think Shanny=Zorn are not the Skins GM. They would make Vinny look like a Genius...:doh:

[Aghar]

Obviously it is much better under Shanny. No doubt about it. However a 11-21 record in his first two years will bring him a few changes moving forward when dealing with the media and some of the fanbase. Mainly, the media will stop throwing softball questions and writing about the Mastermind who coached the Broncos to Super Bowls, had great QBs, made RBs from tree branches,etc,etc. He got that in his first year and even maybe going into his second. We started to see it change right after the 3-1 start. Why it pisses people off, or surprises anyone that certain media types are no longer giving him that treatment is beyond me. Listen, you can talk all you want about what has changed for the better. Fans, a few reporters, and team officials are suppose to point out those "bright spots". However, its a glaring stat when you see a Skins team that starts 3-1 and finishes the remaining 3/4's of the season at an abysmal 2-10. Why the heck wouldn't some of the media point out that it's a horrendous stat? Why shouldn't the some of the fans?

It is what it is. As fans, some of us have the "glass is half full" mentality. We point out all the upside, and tend to ignore, even excuse most of the downside. It's our right, as fans, to do so. As fans, some would prefer to state the obvious, like our 5-11 record and point out that "you are what your record says you are". It's our right, as fans, to do so. The same thing goes for the media. Some would choose to write an article or blog about how the Redskins are a better team moving forward into 2012. Others will question how our record of 2-10 down the stretch could possibly be progress while the glaring deficiency on the team is the same as it was a year before. QB play. I don't think either argument is necessarily wrong.

I'm not going to call out a Redskins fan for making a statement like - We are 5-11 and that gives Shanny one less win than Zorn had before being fired. Why? Because he or she is probably tired of losing. Year after year after year. Their vision gets glossy, and all they see is another disappointing season, despite some of the flashes of great play this season. It's tough to always be optimistic. And just because, they're a fan.

I'm not going to call out a Redskins fan for making statements like - We are SO much better than we were 2 years ago, regardless of record. Look at that great game Hankerson had, now that's talent! Just imagine what we would have been with Jenkins all year, or if only we managed wins against the Cowboys, we'd be 4-2 in the division instead of 2-4. We are just that close. A QB away from turning it around. Why? Because he or she is probably tired of losing. Year after year after year. Their vision gets glossy, but yet they can't help but see all the good things the Skins did this season, regardless of the obvious bad. It's tough to always be pessimistic. And just because, they're a fan.

[Botched]

I agree with this, Zorn really had more reason to not be successful, IMO.

I think people forget that Zorn took over a playoff team.