Poll: Do you honestly believe that Shanahan having one less win than Zorn after 2 seasons means anything in the grand scheme?

[skins island connection]

one; ok, maybe 3 words; Swinging Gate Debacle. When Mike decides to use Gano, Doughty, and Cooley on a triple reverse option pass, then I'll put him in the same catagory as Zorn...

[SAP_Pete]

I do think Shanahan is better than Zorn, but I also think that having less wins than Zorn means something. It means that the team was in a more sorry state than most thought, and I'm not just talking QBs. I hope Shanny is given the time it takes to rebuild the team. I am encouraged with the process, but there are a lot of gaps still to be filled.

[justice98]

one; ok, maybe 3 words; Swinging Gate Debacle. When Mike decides to use Gano, Doughty, and Cooley on a triple reverse option pass, then I'll put him in the same catagory as Zorn...

I don't know what the single worst play in NFL history is, but Swinging Gate has to be in the top couple.

[Commander PK]

I won't vote because I don't like how the choices are worded. That said, while I think this team is getting better, it is taking longer (and is going to continue to take longer) than I thought. Some teams seem able to turn it around in a year or two, sometimes in significant ways. As for us, well, it's frustratingly slow.

I would have worded it a bit different, but I tend to make threads like this when I'm irritated. (something you shouldn't do) Basically, don't read into the question.

The intend of the thread was to gauge how many people honestly think that Zorn's tenure is any kind of measuring stick for Shanahan's tenure. No more no less. For me, Zorn's record shouldn't even be brought up by way of comparison with Shanahan, because the situations are completely different. The expectations are completely different. (or at least they should be) Shanahan and Allen were brought in to rebuild the organization.

Zorn was made head coach because nobody more qualified wanted to deal with Snyderatto. Zorn inherited a team that had made the playoffs twice in the last three years. A team that had managed to do this with arguably the greatest leader of men that the game has ever seen, save Lombardi and a few others, despite the worst "GM" in football.

Shanahan inherited that same team 2 years older, coming off a 4-12 record, and easily the worst managed front office in Football without Gibbs to offset the damage.

[bedlamVR]

Are you really trying to have a discussion or is this just another rhetorical question before you launch into whatever you want to say anyway?

^^I'm being serious, because I'll gladly answer but I already know you're gonna disagree so I kinda don't see the point.

We both like Shanahan and have hope that he can lead this franchise where we want to go.

I'm just more of a bottom line guy.

I'm dissatisified with the bottom line but I never said I didn't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I think everyone is dissatisfied with the bottom line (even the suck for luck people because i mean 6th in the draft that will set us back decades) .

What i like in the team is the fight and the passion and in the Giants games the swagger they had .. thats what i saw in 2011 that i have not seen in a long time ... thats why to me the bottom line is not as important as the direction it is great to see that without exception each and every player on the roster is buying into the Shahan plan . But the moral victories and signs and attitude only go so far ..

I do expect more and going forward we need to put up the Ws ....even with a rookie QB and yes i expect more, but you said you already expected more and the last two years are no better than Zorns tenure ...that is what i want to find out why you think that ... seriously i am asking a genuine question . I am interested to get your opinions .

[Passizle]

After Zorn failed, I fully realized that this team would not contend for at least 5 years. They need to be built from the ground up. So far. I like what I see outside the losses. A few more O and D line and a good QB... 3 more years to go.

[darrelgreenie]

but you said you already expected more and the last two years are no better than Zorns tenure ...that is what i want to find out why you think that ... seriously i am asking a genuine question . I am interested to get your opinions .

Well, I've stated my reasons already.

And whenever I do you make rationalizations for the results.

I think Mike Shanahan is a great coach, a far better coach then Jim Zorn.

But at this juncture the product on the field, specifically the offense, is no better.

I'm not talking about the counting stats and metrics that get thrown around that are largely empty 'stats'.

But, the important metrics that indicate the qaulity of an offensive unit are all down under this regime compared to Zorns.

[8181]

to add onto darrelgreenie, aside from the seahawks game and cowboys game, the redskins looked downright horrible versus the patriots and jets and vikings and eagles...

...in all three phases - Offense, Defense, and Special Teams.

Those games do not show an upward trend, the Redskins continued to lose and lost big....

If it wasn't Mike Shanahan, no one would have hope for next year, myself included. I only am being patient for Year 3 because it is Mike Shanahan

[grego]

the redskins looked downright horrible versus the patriots

i agree with the other 3, but i recall being impressed with their effort vs the pats. outside of the sack/fumble by carter, we outplayed them. not a win, granted, but a respectable showing.

[8181]

i agree with the other 3, but i recall being impressed with their effort vs the pats. outside of the sack/fumble by carter, we outplayed them. not a win, granted, but a respectable showing.

you are right, i think I should clarify myself as I made it sound like the special teams, offense, defense were all bad all the time. Offense was excellent versus the Patriots. I meant each phase has several bad showings throughout the games and defense was one of them versus the Patriots

[bedlamVR]

to add onto darrelgreenie, aside from the seahawks game and cowboys game, the redskins looked downright horrible versus the patriots and jets and vikings and eagles...

...in all three phases - Offense, Defense, and Special Teams.

Those games do not show an upward trend, the Redskins continued to lose and lost big....

If it wasn't Mike Shanahan, no one would have hope for next year, myself included. I only am being patient for Year 3 because it is Mike Shanahan

I completely disagree with you on some of the examples of the games you gave , The Vikings and the Eagles games yes the team came out and came out flat . For some reason we went backwards against the Vikes and the Eagles seem to have our number .

Versus the Pats I thought we played very well, we hung with one of the best offenses in the NFL and it was two back to back bad plays by Moss (though I still say there were some very poor referee decisions) ... The Dallas games we played very close both coming to last minute plays, the Jets well i am not sure what happened with the jets but a collective brain fart in the last 5 minutes ...

Had you said we looked terrible against the Bills, Dolphins, and Carolina then yes I would agree we did look terrible ... but then given we are in full on rebuild mode did you really expect us to be better ?

it totally sucks to be in this situation ... it really does..... but this is (hopefully) the medicine we have needed for the last decade of ignoring the draft and putting 90% of the money and resources into 10% of the players an essentially stuffing uniforms for depth ...

[TankRizzo]

This thread is silly. Zorn can barely hold a QB coach position. If we fired Shanahan today, he'd be a head coach again somewhere else next season.

[justice98]

This thread is silly. Zorn can barely hold a QB coach position. If we fired Shanahan today, he'd be a head coach again somewhere else next season.

The second part is true, but let's be fair, Zorn's more than proved he can coach QBs. Maybe he can't coach anyone else, but he knows how to make a better QB. Pretty much every QB he's coached has either made strides or had his best season under him.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Zorn was made head coach because nobody more qualified wanted to deal with Snyderatto. Zorn inherited a team that had made the playoffs twice in the last three years..

I don't know about that. Greg Williams spent 2 days holed up with Snyder interviewing for the job. Jim Fassell also wanted it. And these are just 2 that I know of, I'm sure there were others.

Not claiiming these guys are Vince Lombardi or anything but they surely were more qualified than Jim Zorn. Hell YOU were more qualified than Jim Zorn.

[Riggodrill44]

It is a public poll. (The answer is daveakl)

No. Zorn inherited a Gibbs roster coming off a playoff season. Shanahan inherited a Zorn roster coming off a 4-12 "season." If Shanny was fired today like Zorn was after 2 years, the next coach coming in would have a much better situation to work with. He still needs a franchise QB, but this roster is much better off than Zorn's was at this point.

Who's fault is that roster?Don't act like Zorn was in charge of building that team.Zorn had no say on any part of the roster.Shanahan is building a better team but that doesn't make him a better coach

[justice98]

I don't know about that. Greg Williams spent 2 days holed up with Snyder interviewing for the job. Jim Fassell also wanted it. And these are just 2 that I know of, I'm sure there were others.

Not claiiming these guys are Vince Lombardi or anything but they surely were more qualified than Jim Zorn. Hell YOU were more qualified than Jim Zorn.

Yeah, I distinctly recall that. Because everybody was underwhelmed that Fassel was being interviewed. I actually thought Fassel would've been a halfway decent choice under the circumstances. Alas, Snyder thought Zorn was a better choice.

[Commander PK]

I don't know about that. Greg Williams spent 2 days holed up with Snyder interviewing for the job. Jim Fassell also wanted it. And these are just 2 that I know of, I'm sure there were others.

Not claiiming these guys are Vince Lombardi or anything but they surely were more qualified than Jim Zorn. Hell YOU were more qualified than Jim Zorn.

well in hindsight Fassell could have done no worse. Williams probably wasn't going to be a "team player."

cough Cerratto cough cough

---------- Post added January-10th-2012 at 04:22 PM ----------

This thread is silly. Zorn can barely hold a QB coach position. If we fired Shanahan today, he'd be a head coach again somewhere else next season.

the premise behind it is yes, but for many reasons I felt what should be obvious needed a resounding understatement. In other words, the public ain't buying what some in the media are selling. Here is some non-scientific proof.

[LD0506]

Hardly a fair comparison, no one could have succeeded with Wormtongue involved. There will always be the doomsayers that cling to their negativity in spite of all evidence to the contrary, no season will ever fix that, therapy might but that is a another question entirely.

Objectively looking at the overall picture, we have gotten better and are on an upward path, it is mindbogglingly hard to dispute that. If and when the FO fixes the QB position, a lot of the other parts will suddenly be revealed not to suck as much as people think.

[KokoMike]

Zorm had his "keep it medium" approach. Shanahan has his "my way or the highway" approach. To this point, comparatively, they have been equally unsuccessful.

Zorn tried to be flexible. Shanahan has shown great tendencies for inflexibliity. Both with the same actual result to date.

I agree with this comment which appeared in an NBCWashington article today:

"With fewer options than originally anticipated at the quarterback position this offseason, Shanahan may be forced to tweak his offense to fit the skillset of whatever signal caller is made available to him. Considering the my-way-or-the-highway approach he’s taken with the Redskins, the odds of that happening aren’t good.

That’s a problem."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45955838/ns/local_news-washington_dc/#.Tw3AU5hNnlc

My point is that Shanahan needs to change for the better. i know a lot of you believe that everybody around him needs to change because he is so great and right. I think Shanahan has great potential. It will either be his way or the highway (for him) or a more let's win the game approach (for all of us). It is up to him.

P.S. If he leaves the Redskins, he will not be a quarterbacks coach. Another difference from Zorn.