Poll: Do you honestly believe that Shanahan having one less win than Zorn after 2 seasons means anything in the grand scheme?

[justice98]

I think people forget that Zorn took over a playoff team.

They weren't a good team though. A 5-7 team that made a run at the end to squeak in at 9-7, coming off 5-11 the year before. Most people could see that playoff appearance was fool's gold.

[Forever21]

Zorn did not one thing to improve the team. He also had less than no influence on personelle.

Shanahan has shut the owner up. Improved the culture. and improved the roster.

The 8 of you who voted 'Yes' have serious issues.

[Darrell Green Fan]

I think people forget that Zorn took over a playoff team.

Not me.

I am so sick of the record comparisons. Zorn inherited a playoff team. Shanny inherited a 4-12 team that was the oldest in the league, had no young talent, a horrible cap situation and lacking draft picks.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Pretty sure Shanny will not call back to back fake punts TWICE. Everyone remembers the failed one against the Giants but earlier in the year he did one against the Broncos that failed but he got another play due to a Denver penalty. So he calls ANOTHER fake punt and it worked. I was very vocal on just how stupid that move was but it was swept under the rug because it worked.

At one point Zorn called running plays on 18 of 21 first and tens. He was terrible, period.

[Henry]

If you want to look strictly at wins and losses:

In Zorn's first year his team played a game worse than the year before.

In Zorn's second year his team played four games worse than the year before.

After two years Zorn's team was five games worse than when he took over.

In Shanahan's first year his team played two games better.

In Shanahan's second year his team played one game worse.

After two years Shanahan's team is one game better than when he took over.

... and I can't believe anyone thinks Shanahan had more talent to work with than Zorn. Wow.

[Redskindon2]

I don't know, but I'm scared it might. If he flames out, we'll look back and say we should have known after two seasons. On the other hand if he starts winning next season, we'll say no.

what I haven't liked about Shanny is his stubborness to admit he was wrong or to make Kyle call different plays at times. There were games where he just abandoned the run game all together when we could have won if we had not been so pass happy. And the John Beck experiment. Rex moved the ball more throwing interceptions than Beck ever did. Change the playcalling a little bit and no Beck is there 4 more wins we coulda squeaked out. How many games were given away because of no running? 1st Dallas loss hightower had 41 yards rushing, 1st philly loss Torrain had 22 yards rushing, Buffalo loss 14 yards rushing, SF loss 41 yards rushing, Miami loss 41 yards, 2nd Dallas loss 35 yards rushing (although I blame that loss on the kicker and Shanny... he should have punted ball instead of 52 yard FG). Do you see a pattern in all the losses besides turnovers? We were way to pass happy with a QB that likes to turn it over. And our OLine as bad as it is could have still helped us with a run game. we just didnt run it. Shanny better get a QB this season in the draft or Flynn...us fans are tired of losing. Why are the ravens always winning and redskins aren't? How come SF has #2 seed and no change except coach? Skins fans are tired of losing. Have you noticed that there isnt a waiting list anymore for season tickets?. I wonder why?

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

And I'll bet you that Shanny doesn't give a hoot in hell what the press or fan base currently think about his rebuilding plan so far.

And if I were in his shoes? I wouldn't either.

I guarantee he doesn't! As long as the 'lil general is placated..he is fine. Leave the touchy feely stuff to Bruce.

[RSimports]

I voted no based solely on the fact that for once I can see a clear youth movement and actually building a team to win in the future vs now. For once in the past ten years I actually excited to watch the draft because we have picks vs trading them away! Just my quick thought.

[Botched]

I am so sick of the record comparisons. Zorn inherited a playoff team. Shanny inherited a 4-12 team that was the oldest in the league, had no young talent, a horrible cap situation and lacking draft picks.

Good call.

They weren't a good team though. A 5-7 team that made a run at the end to squeak in at 9-7, coming off 5-11 the year before. Most people could see that playoff appearance was fool's gold.

The 2007 team was a QB away from being legitimate contenders. Fools gold was going 6-2 the next year.

[WorshiptheMonk81]

This information is not something I would even consider if media blowhards wouldn’t keep bringing it up. 2 totally different teams at completely different times. It seems the Zorn era was built to "win now" and Vinny was still running the franchise into the ground. The Shanny/Allen era has been more about following a discipline plan and building for the future, while trying to maintain the "win now" feeling. Although the win/loss column isn’t what we all want it to be, I like the Shanaplan better than the Zorn era (and I hope we find a serviceable QB because I believe that to be the difference at this point.) I believe Zorn and his record are irrelevant in the grand scheme

[SlinginSammy HOF '63]

Zorn inherited a wildcard team. Shanahan inherited a mess that came off some bad drafts(aside a couple of players) and dumb personel decisions by Zorneratto. If we draft in 2012 and 2013 like we did this last season we are going to have a fantastic team.

Shanahan/Allen take no blame for the last two seasons' records. They had to clean a very dysfunctional and messy house. I have 100% trust in these two gentlemen.

[justice98]

If you want to look strictly at wins and losses:

In Zorn's first year his team played a game worse than the year before.

In Zorn's second year his team played four games worse than the year before.

After two years Zorn's team was five games worse than when he took over.

In Shanahan's first year his team played two games better.

In Shanahan's second year his team played one game worse.

After two years Shanahan's team is one game better than when he took over.

... and I can't believe anyone thinks Shanahan had more talent to work with than Zorn. Wow.

People wanted Zorn's talent run outta here on rail. Now all the sudden, Vinny stacked Zorn's teams with good players.

But I agree, it's deeper than the record. In his last year, Zorn lost 7 games by a TD or less, meaning they were competitive with at least some semblance of a chance to win more often than not. If he weren't such a knucklehead, he'd probably have been a .500 coach for his tenure. I know Sheehan liked to give Shanny credit for last year's team being competitive down the stretch. But Shanny's team is getting LESS competitive, not more. The scoreboard doesn't lie. They're not playing closer games, they're getting rolled more frequently. They're better on paper, but paper eventually needs to turn into something substantial.

[Redskindon2]

Obviously it is much better under Shanny. No doubt about it. However a 11-21 record in his first two years will bring him a few changes moving forward when dealing with the media and some of the fanbase. Mainly, the media will stop throwing softball questions and writing about the Mastermind who coached the Broncos to Super Bowls, had great QBs, made RBs from tree branches,etc,etc. He got that in his first year and even maybe going into his second. We started to see it change right after the 3-1 start. Why it pisses people off, or surprises anyone that certain media types are no longer giving him that treatment is beyond me. Listen, you can talk all you want about what has changed for the better. Fans, a few reporters, and team officials are suppose to point out those "bright spots". However, its a glaring stat when you see a Skins team that starts 3-1 and finishes the remaining 3/4's of the season at an abysmal 2-10. Why the heck wouldn't some of the media point out that it's a horrendous stat? Why shouldn't the some of the fans?

It is what it is. As fans, some of us have the "glass is half full" mentality. We point out all the upside, and tend to ignore, even excuse most of the downside. It's our right, as fans, to do so. As fans, some would prefer to state the obvious, like our 5-11 record and point out that "you are what your record says you are". It's our right, as fans, to do so. The same thing goes for the media. Some would choose to write an article or blog about how the Redskins are a better team moving forward into 2012. Others will question how our record of 2-10 down the stretch could possibly be progress while the glaring deficiency on the team is the same as it was a year before. QB play. I don't think either argument is necessarily wrong.

I'm not going to call out a Redskins fan for making a statement like - We are 5-11 and that gives Shanny one less win than Zorn had before being fired. Why? Because he or she is probably tired of losing. Year after year after year. Their vision gets glossy, and all they see is another disappointing season, despite some of the flashes of great play this season. It's tough to always be optimistic. And just because, they're a fan.

I'm not going to call out a Redskins fan for making statements like - We are SO much better than we were 2 years ago, regardless of record. Look at that great game Hankerson had, now that's talent! Just imagine what we would have been with Jenkins all year, or if only we managed wins against the Cowboys, we'd be 4-2 in the division instead of 2-4. We are just that close. A QB away from turning it around. Why? Because he or she is probably tired of losing. Year after year after year. Their vision gets glossy, but yet they can't help but see all the good things the Skins did this season, regardless of the obvious bad. It's tough to always be pessimistic. And just because, they're a fan.

You are absolutely right in just about everything you've said. I am a diehard fan but i'm fn tired of losing. I want Shanny to turn it around but 11-21 sucks. part of the losing is the coaching. Injuries killed us this year. no doubt about it. we should have won both dallas games but instead our coaching gave them away. No running in the 1st one and kicking a 52 yard FG with "Miss all the time GANO" instead of punting and letting our defense hold them. I can't believe after starting 3-1 that we finished 5 - 11. that totally sucks and I'm sick of the bleeding. if i wasn't as diehard as i am i would have dumped the skins a became a ravens fan. they better get a QB now!!! this year. it better be LUCK, RG3 or Flynn or im not going to watch em lose anymore. I'm tired of clutching my Rypien Jersey and watching a old superbowl to remember how great we were. People make fun of me for being a skins fan. It's embarrassing to tell people i'm a skins fan. The one thing you can say about every other nfc east team is that they have a QB. maybe not the successes but a QB that can win. last place is unacceptable. and i won't accept it anymore. if they don't change something next year i think i'm done with em....

[justice98]

Zorn inherited a wildcard team. Shanahan inherited a mess that came off some bad drafts(aside a couple of players) and dumb personel decisions by Zorneratto. If we draft in 2012 and 2013 like we did this last season we are going to have a fantastic team.

Shanahan/Allen take no blame for the last two seasons' records. They had to clean a very dysfunctional and messy house. I have 100% trust in these two gentlemen.

But Zorn inherited a well drafted team? So you're giving Vinny credit for overseeing good drafts then?

People need to forget that the '07 team made the playoffs' date=' that team WASN'T GOOD and had no chance for any long term success.

---------- Post added January-5th-2012 at 10:19 AM ----------

Good call.

The 2007 team was a QB away from being legitimate contenders. Fools gold was going 6-2 the next year.

We'll have to disagree on that, I don't think starters consisting of ARE at WR, Casey Rabach, Todd Wade, I could go on and on. And they had NO depth anywhere.

[tds]

Sometimes you have to take a few steps back to move forward. You can't expect a turn around in two seasons after 10 years of Cerrato ignoring the trenches. I believe in Shanny. I think we'll be a playoff team if we have another offseason/draft like we did in 2011. We're also in a great position in terms of Cap space. What's crazy is we were only a few missed field goals away from being in the playoffs this year.

Some notable moves off the top of my head...

Two trades the we got the better end of.. Holiday for Hightower & Jarmon for Gaffney.

Bowen & Cofield were nice (young) free agency acquisitions. We only have one starter on our front 7 over the age of 27.

Our 2011 draft was a huge success on many different levels... parlaying 6 or 7 picks into a selection in each round... Kerrigan is the real deal. A stable full of stud RB's. Jenkins will be a huge addition to an already solid front 3. Hankerson showed promise before his injury.

[SlinginSammy HOF '63]

But Zorn inherited a well drafted team? So you're giving Vinny credit for overseeing good drafts then?

Zorn did not inherit a well drafted team at all, but for the record, he did inherit a 9-7 team. Bad drafts, combined with his inability to lead, is what led to the 4-12 season. 2009 just proved that Vinny and Zorn neither one had any idea what they were doing. If Snyder ever gets his silly itch to bring back Vinny this franchise is doomed. We are on the right track right now coming off of a great draft and cleaning the clutter and overpaid dinosaurs from the roster.

[TaylorPickSix]

Watch this team play. There is no way this team is as bad as the Zorn squads, regardless of records.

If you don't believe me, go root for the Cowboys.

[HeluCopter29]

We're comparing **** records to **** records. The difference is how the team has been handled and this establishment is handling it better.

[VinnyIsThatYou?]

No, it doesn't matter. All it does is give fodder for bums like Jason Reid to ***** and moan about every terrible opinion piece they write. I like the culture change and the cleaning up of the majority of the terrible contracts.

Zorn was put into a bad situation and I'm not giving credit to the roster Vinny constructed for him, but it did have more talent and was more geared to "winning now" than the roster is now. The roster still sucked when considering the terrible cap management and the age of the roster, but it definitely had more potential to get Ws than the current roster.

That said, Shanny needs to show tangible progress next year. Certain positions (e.g.; QB, WR/playmaker) need to be addressed and the teams needs to at least be considered up and coming after the season is done. However, Shanny's contract is huge so even if he blows it next year he'll probably stick around for year 4 regardless. I doubt Dan fires Shanny after next year while still owing him $14M.

[justice98]

Zorn did not inherit a well drafted team at all' date=' but for the record, he did inherit a 9-7 team. Bad drafts, combined with his inability to lead, is what led to the 4-12 season. 2009 just proved that Vinny and Zorn neither one had any idea what they were doing. If Snyder ever gets his silly itch to bring back Vinny this franchise is doomed. We are on the right track right now coming off of a great draft and cleaning the clutter and overpaid dinosaurs from the roster.[/quote']

Zorn's teams played closer games, just for the record. Two year point differential for Zorn was -101. Two year point differential for Shanahan is -154. The record in games decided by 7pts or less was the same at 9-11. Which kind tells you that Shanny's teams get blown out more often. Now if someone wants to say Shanny and Allen is a better front office than Cerrato and Snyder, that's a different conversation.

But one year to the next doesn't carry over, look at the Rams and Bucs, last year they were up and coming, this year, they're two of the worst in the league. So it's not necessarily applicable to try to give Zorn extra credit for inheriting a fraudulent team. I can't believe people actually think that team was decent. They terrible and pulled it together enough to beat one winning team down the stretch and a Cowboys team that'd clinched and didn't care in the last game to get into the playoffs. But Zorn inherited a good squad, get outta here. lol

---------- Post added January-5th-2012 at 11:57 AM ----------

We're comparing **** records to **** records. The difference is how the team has been handled and this establishment is handling it better.

Now that I can agree with.

[Skinsfan4life83]

It's only one indicator but another losing season in 2012 and it would be hard to justify a 2013 return for Shanahan. It will take a Cam Newtonish showing from the rookie QB IMO, and some promise from the D to earn him another return in that scenario.

I get your point but I disagree. I don't necessarily believe he needs a Newton-esque showing from his rookie qb. It seems the main perpetraters of this three year must win myth is the media. Why does Shanahan only deserve three years? I've seen coaches do worse and stay with their teams much longer.

I think Snyder wasn't bull****ting when he gave Shanny his 5 year contract. This team does not need another coaching change and anyone who thinks we do after 2-3 seasons is a idiot.

[frommd]

In two years without a normal free-agency and with limited draft picks, we've managed to; get much younger, clean up our cap situation, get rid of several malcontents, and compile extra draft picks and depth.

This will be the first full off-season this regime has gotten and I expect next year we will take a big step forward.

[Crazy Levi]

One again, the poll question and the poll answers vary wildly, which makes it impossible to answer correctly. However, I went with A , not meaning he's "no better than Zorn," but meaning that YES, it does mean something in the "grand scheme."

Shannahn brought in McNabb and Brown, and he traded away a couple high draft picks to do it. He obviously didn't to it to win 11 games in his first two seasons. These were win-now moves which backfired. And now we are rebuilding - a year late and down several draft picks because of it.

So yeah, in the scheme of things it does mean something - which was the poll question, if not one of the poll answers.

[Skinsfan4life83]

Zorn's teams played closer games, just for the record. Two year point differential for Zorn was -101. Two year point differential for Shanahan is -154. The record in games decided by 7pts or less was the same at 9-11. Which kind tells you that Shanny's teams get blown out more often. Now if someone wants to say Shanny and Allen is a better front office than Cerrato and Snyder, that's a different conversation.

But one year to the next doesn't carry over, look at the Rams and Bucs, last year they were up and coming, this year, they're two of the worst in the league. So it's not necessarily applicable to try to give Zorn extra credit for inheriting a fraudulent team. I can't believe people actually think that team was decent. They terrible and pulled it together enough to beat one winning team down the stretch and a Cowboys team that'd clinched and didn't care in the last game to get into the playoffs. But Zorn inherited a good squad, get outta here. lol

---------- Post added January-5th-2012 at 11:57 AM ----------

Not that I can agree with.

Shanny and Zorn cannot be compared. Shanny gutted this roster. Zorn had a bunch of vets. The injury bug has killed us this year. Zorn team stayed healthy for the most part. Two completely different scenarios that should not be compared ever.

---------- Post added January-5th-2012 at 12:38 PM ----------

In two years without a normal free-agency and with limited draft picks, we've managed to; get much younger, clean up our cap situation, get rid of several malcontents, and compile extra draft picks and depth.

This will be the first full off-season this regime has gotten and I expect next year we will take a big step forward.

^^^ This

I don't think people realize the true effect the lockout had on this team.

---------- Post added January-5th-2012 at 12:35 PM ----------

It means absolutely NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.

[Darrell Green Fan]

I can't wait for Shanny to start winning so I can stop defending his personnel moves. We just had the best offseason i can remember in decades, yet fans still want to talk about the McNabb trade. That's what losing does for you I guess.

On top of his great draft and pretty solid FA class he got a 4th for JC, a 5th (or is it a 4th?) for Fat Albert and a 6th for McNabb. Brilliant I tell ya!