Poll: Do you honestly believe that Shanahan having one less win than Zorn after 2 seasons means anything in the grand scheme?

[Crazy Levi]

I can't wait for Shanny to start winning so I can stop defending his personnel moves. We just had the best offseason i can remember in decades, yet fans still want to talk about the McNabb trade. That's what losing does for you I guess.

On top of his great draft and pretty solid FA class he got a 4th for JC, a 5th (or is it a 4th?) for Fat Albert and a 6th for McNabb. Brilliant I tell ya!

Yes, THIS offseason was very good. LAST offseason sucked.

We'd be well ahead of the game if they'd just stuck with Campbell and didn't throw away those draft picks. I don't see why we are all supposed to pretend that this didn't happen.

Shanahan obviously didn't view this team as a complete rebuilding project - he's admitted as such, not just with his moves last year, but in the press this week.

That's a bit troubling. The writing was on the wall when Shanny came in that this team needed a complete rebuild and he's the only one who didn't seem to notice that.

[#98QBKiller]

I get your point but I disagree. I don't necessarily believe he needs a Newton-esque showing from his rookie qb. It seems the main perpetraters of this three year must win myth is the media. Why does Shanahan only deserve three years? I've seen coaches do worse and stay with their teams much longer.

I think Snyder wasn't bull****ting when he gave Shanny his 5 year contract. This team does not need another coaching change and anyone who thinks we do after 2-3 seasons is a idiot.

What coaches in the NFL have had three consecutive sub-.500 seasons and were allowed to come back for a fourth try? I am honestly having trouble thinking of any.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Yes, THIS offseason was very good. LAST offseason sucked.

We'd be well ahead of the game if they'd just stuck with Campbell and didn't throw away those draft picks. I don't see why we are all supposed to pretend that this didn't happen.

Shanahan obviously didn't view this team as a complete rebuilding project - he's admitted as such, not just with his moves last year, but in the press this week.

That's a bit troubling. The writing was on the wall when Shanny came in that this team needed a complete rebuild and he's the only one who didn't seem to notice that.

I see you are another one. Never said you should pretend the McNabb trade didn't happen. Just that you need to compare that bad move with all the good ones before passing judgement. EVERY personnel guy has made mistakes.

To claim that his first offseason wasn't good isn't totally fair. They had no cap room and there was basically no free agency. So you are going to kill him for not making more moves there? His first pick appears dicey in Trent Williams but that still has a good shot of working out. Vinny spent the 3rd on Jarmon but even with a less than full draft he still landed players in Perry Riley in the 4th, Carriker in a swap of 5th round picks, and later round guys like Capers and Cook. Not a great draft but considering what he had to work with not horrible either.

And for a guy who is supposed to have missed on every QB move he has madeShanny was obviously right on Jason Campbell. Keeping him may have lead to 1 or 2 more wins but Jason Campbell is the road to nowhere. I don't care about 1 or 2 more wins, I want to win big and I'm will to wait until it's done the right way. Jason Campbell by the way will be looking for a job as we decide who to draft with the pick we got for him.

[Mursilis]

I can't wait for Shanny to start winning!

Neither can I. Nothing proves you're making the right moves like winning a bunch of games. Until then, it's fair to question some of the moves Shanny's made in the last two years.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Neither can I. Nothing proves you're making the right moves like winning a bunch of games. Until then, it's fair to question some of the moves Shanny's made in the last two years.

Again McNabb and Jamal Brown were bad moves looking back. But you can look back at every team and find bad moves. What we need to do is compare the bad ones against the good ones and IMO he is way ahead on the scorecard. This team was a complete mess when he arrived. We are better, younger, and have a bit more depth than we did 2 years ago. Just look at the OL, and that is one of our weakest units. Remember the end of the '09 season, when we had similar injuries along the line. That line was a joke, Campbell went back and had 3 guys on him even with a 3 step drop. This year we are missing 3 of the 5 starters and they really havn't had much of a drop off at all.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

People seriously forget how BAD not only the 2009 team was, but how bad the teams they played were. Narrow wins against the Rams and Chiefs. Losses to the 3-13 Bucs, the Panthers starting Jake Delhomme who was 2-8 as a starter that year, the Lions who were coming off 0-16. We were lucky to get the Broncos at the beginning of their freefall. And of course we played the Raiders too. Just atrocious.

That's also why the idea of Jason Campbell being a top 15 QB in 2009 (the same idiotic distortion that certain people continue to repeat over and over and over again) is absolutely inane. Zorn, to his credit, designed an offense that could make a severely limited QB look good statistically (more like limit his errors) by having him throw short, safe passes that resulted in relatively few negative plays, while allowing our WRs to turn 4 yard throws into 12 yard gains, 6 yard throws into 15 yard gains, 1 yard throws into 5 yard gains, et cetera. If he were in the Shanahan offense, he'd be terrible, because he'd be incapable of running it. That's why Shanahan got rid of him. He had a few good games in the Oakland offense where he has an elite run game and a solid O-Line, as well as speedy recievers that can make him look like a better QB than he actually is.

That is what Shanahan had to work with. The 2009 team was in reality a 1-15 or so team that got a few lucky breaks. He started with *absolutely* nothing at several key positions, because of the necessity of having to cut older, but semi-contributing players to overhaul the roster.

Also, this team is an 8-8 team if Grossman starts all 16 games, and we get even league average ST play (and it does disturb me that Danny Smith is still coaching here btw). 2 made FGs (or better coverage on Dez Bryant) takes us from 5-11 to 7-9. Grossman instead of Beck probably beats the Bills, and maybe changes the dynamic of the Panthers game enough to win. I'd also venture to think that the Dolphins game would have gone better if Grossman hadn't missed 4 weeks.

[Crazy Levi]

To claim that his first offseason wasn't good isn't totally fair. They had no cap room and there was basically no free agency. So you are going to kill him for not making more moves there?

And for a guy who is supposed to have missed on every QB move he has madeShanny was obviously right on Jason Campbell. Keeping him may have lead to 1 or 2 more wins but Jason Campbell is the road to nowhere. I don't care about 1 or 2 more wins, I want to win big and I'm will to wait until it's done the right way. Jason Campbell by the way will be looking for a job as we decide who to draft with the pick we got for him.

Uhh...did you read what I said? Keeping Jason Campbell may or may not have given us "1 or 2" more wins, that is NOT the point. We would have saved a second round draft pick.

And I am not criticizing the moves Shanny DIDN'T make, I'm criticizing some of the ones he did. Drafting Williams and Acquiring Carriker were decent moves. Wasting draft picks on McNabb and Brown were not. They were win-now moves on a team that had no business thinking win-now, and that was a terrible mistake and has helped set back this rebuilding process a year.

I'm happy with the last offseason. But yes, "in the grand scheme" clearly things did not turn out how Shannahn expected them to. Like I said, you don't waste picks on vets like McNabb and Brown expecting to only get 11 wins your first 2 years.

---------- Post added January-5th-2012 at 02:04 PM ----------

Again McNabb and Jamal Brown were bad moves looking back. But you can look back at every team and find bad moves. .

But it's more than that; it shows a complete lack of understanding about how bad the team was. It was a complete philosophical blunder about the direction of the franchise.

---------- Post added January-5th-2012 at 02:06 PM ----------

Also, this team is an 8-8 team if Grossman starts all 16 games, and we get even league average ST play (and it does disturb me that Danny Smith is still coaching here btw). 2 made FGs (or better coverage on Dez Bryant) takes us from 5-11 to 7-9. Grossman instead of Beck probably beats the Bills, and maybe changes the dynamic of the Panthers game enough to win. I'd also venture to think that the Dolphins game would have gone better if Grossman hadn't missed 4 weeks.

So what you are saying is that if things had turned out completely differently, we would have been 8-8 or 7-9.

Sweet.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Uhh...did you read what I said? Keeping Jason Campbell may or may not have given us "1 or 2" more wins, that is NOT the point. We would have saved a second round draft pick.

And I am not criticizing the moves Shanny DIDN'T make, I'm criticizing some of the ones he did. Drafting Williams and Acquiring Carriker were decent moves. Wasting draft picks on McNabb and Brown were not. They were win-now moves on a team that had no business thinking win-now, and that was a terrible mistake and has helped set back this rebuilding process a year.

I'm happy with the last offseason. But yes, "in the grand scheme" clearly things did not turn out how Shannahn expected them to. Like I said, you don't waste picks on vets like McNabb and Brown expecting to only get 11 wins your first 2 years.

---------- Post added January-5th-2012 at 02:04 PM ----------

But it's more than that; it shows a complete lack of understanding about how bad the team was. It was a complete philosophical blunder about the direction of the franchise.

---------- Post added January-5th-2012 at 02:06 PM ----------

So what you are saying is that if things had turned out completely differently, we would have been 8-8 or 7-9.

Sweet.

Yeah I saw what you said. And again you appear to be putting too much blame for our entire situation on 2 bad moves while totally disregarding all the good moves he made. I agree that the moves were not made with a complete rebuild in mind. But IMO he saw 2 glaring holes and did his best to fill them FOR THE TIME BEING while he searched for long term answers. He dismissed Campbell because he rightfully decided that Jason Campbell sucks. He traded for a 32 year old former Pro Bowl QB with the justifiable understanding that he could keep the team competitive for a few years while he continued the rebuild. He traded for Brown because the team had no RT.

Again looking back it backfired. But my position remains people need to look past those moves and look at the big picture. Jeez how many high picks did Joe Gibbs piss away for the likes of TJ Duckett etc? It was WAY more picks. Yet Shanny gets grilled much more than Gibbs did.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

So what you are saying is that if things had turned out completely differently, we would have been 8-8 or 7-9.

Sweet.

8-8 2 years removed from one of the worst teams ever assembled. The Lions went 6-10 in Schwartz's second year, and 2-14 the year before. It's called MAKING PROGRESS. Which is a part of rebuilding.

I think you long for the heady days of 2000 when we thought we were Super Bowl contenders after a Shanny spending spree.

[Crazy Levi]

Yeah I saw what you said. And again you appear to be putting too much blame for our entire situation on 2 bad moves while totally disregarding all the good moves he made.

I'm not doing that all.

I'm simply trying to answer a poll question. Not debate Shanahan's moves en masse, nor discuss Gibbs or any of that other stuff.

"Do you honestly believe that Shanahn having one less win than Zorn after 2 seasons means something in the grand scheme of things?"

Yes.

[TheTotalPackage]

i agree with this

Its a fact Zorn had 1 more win then Mike Shanahan.

I think what you're trying to ask is whether the win/loss record implies anything about the quality of their coaching.

Which is an interesting question which I'll get to below.

But first I want to address the reactionary pigeon holing going on lately.

Some fans are honest and critical of some the decisions and result under the Shanahan regime.

For some reason the fans that hold this view are unfairly and wrongly lumped in with the fans that dislike or want Shanahan gone.

Being critical doesn't equal dislike.

Back to Zorn.

I find the comparison to Zorn interesting because:

o Zorn was working with less talent

o Zorn had no say in with the coaching staff (in year 1)

o Zorn's personnel decisions were made by read hamstrung by the FO=Vincent Cerratto (as a

proxy) for Dan Synder; and in year 2 Zorn was actively being undermined by the 'FO'

o Zorn actually elevated the play of his QB

o Despite the above handicaps the Zorn/Sherm offense has been better in the important metrics RZ scoring/3rd down conversions/fewer turnovers

overall, i think that Zorn was actually a much better coach than he is being given credit for; largely because of the above sentiments.

now, as for shanahan, i don't think many of his supporters on here are holding him accountable for why the record is what it is. he made many bad and or questionable coaching decisions this year that may have affected our record.

i said this in the bill simmons thread

shanahan has pretty much the same or worse record than zorn had at this point yet zorn is vilified for being horrible although it was agreed that he had zero talent. people say that the talent is FAR better now with shanahan than in zorn's era. so why haven't we won more? people are not holding shanahan accountable for his poor coaching decisions either. waiting until midseason to start Helu and give Royster playing time? benching rex after five games when we had a 3-2 record might have been what ruined our season. furthermore there have been games when we seem to be playing well only to have the offense stagnate due to questionable playcalling. (abandoning or ignoring the run? calling "pretty" plays?) we all know that mike doesn't call the plays but since he's the HC, he needs to be accountable for everything; and if there comes to a point where kyle seems to have lost it, then he needs to step up and say wtf are you doing; or sit down with kyle and discuss what kinds of plays he'd like to see called in given situations instead of giving kyle full and unquestioned autonomy. shanahan set us back in trading for mcnabb when he could've just kept campbell and the draft pick(s) he gave up for mcd5 then dealt with jc later if he saw fit. shanahan's career in washington is definitely not beyond reproach and far from it.

summary: zorn was a better coach than he's being given credit for; and shanahan isn't doing as good a coaching job as folks are saying he is.

[Mursilis]

8-8 2 years removed from one of the worst teams ever assembled. The Lions went 6-10 in Schwartz's second year, and 2-14 the year before. It's called MAKING PROGRESS. Which is a part of rebuilding.

I think you long for the heady days of 2000 when we thought we were Super Bowl contenders after a Shanny spending spree.

Speaking of Schwartz's rebuild of the 0-16 Lions, he had them in the playoffs by Year 3, in a division with the defending SB champs, and the losing team in the NFC Championship game. I'm expecting something similar of Shanahan.

---------- Post added January-5th-2012 at 02:49 PM ----------

People seriously forget how BAD not only the 2009 team was, but how bad the teams they played were. Narrow wins against the Rams and Chiefs. Losses to the 3-13 Bucs, the Panthers starting Jake Delhomme who was 2-8 as a starter that year, the Lions who were coming off 0-16. We were lucky to get the Broncos at the beginning of their freefall. And of course we played the Raiders too. Just atrocious.

If you're going to play that game, you should mention the narrow losses, too. They took the SB Champion Saints into overtime, among other things. The 2009 team wasn't very good by any measure, but wasn't epically awful like many pretend it to be. Shanahan certainly thought they were close to contending when he got here, which is why he traded for McNabb.

Also, this team is an 8-8 team if Grossman starts all 16 games, and we get even league average ST play (and it does disturb me that Danny Smith is still coaching here btw). 2 made FGs (or better coverage on Dez Bryant) takes us from 5-11 to 7-9. Grossman instead of Beck probably beats the Bills, and maybe changes the dynamic of the Panthers game enough to win. I'd also venture to think that the Dolphins game would have gone better if Grossman hadn't missed 4 weeks.

What a bunch of wishful thinking. Fact is, Grossman remains a turnover machine - he managed to be third in the league in interceptions despite missing 3 games, and being benched for the second half of the Eagles game. I don't think a full season of Grossman would've changed much this year. Maybe 6-10. Maybe.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

If you're going to play that game, you should mention the narrow losses, too. They took the SB Champion Saints into overtime, among other things. The 2009 team wasn't very good by any measure, but wasn't epically awful like many pretend it to be. Shanahan certainly thought they were close to contending when he got here, which is why he traded for McNabb.

Flukes happen, especially late in the year when a team that's clinched looks past an apparent bottom feeder. When the games actually mattered, we were historically bad.

The 4-12 Bucs BEAT the record-breaking Saints this year. What does that mean? Nothing.

What a bunch of wishful thinking. Fact is, Grossman remains a turnover machine - he managed to be third in the league in interceptions despite missing 3 games, and being benched for the second half of the Eagles game. I don't think a full season of Grossman would've changed much this year. Maybe 6-10. Maybe.

If Gano makes a 49 yarder and doesn't get a 45 yarder blocked, we're 7-9. Simple as that. And Grossman is 5-8 (not 5-7 as I said before) as a starter, and two special teams failures from being 7-6. Why is it out of the question that he couldn't get 1 of those 2 games against the Bills and Panthers?

[darrelgreenie]

The more obvious answer is that taking a highly rated QB would have bought Zorn more time and Cerrato wasn't going to allow Zorn that opportunity. Plus drafting a QB high would not have been a win now move, and Cerrato don't play that.

CerratoSnyder did try to get a QB twice: Sanchez and Cutler.

[Crazy Levi]

If Gano makes a 49 yarder and doesn't get a 45 yarder blocked, we're 7-9. Simple as that. And Grossman is 5-8 (not 5-7 as I said before) as a starter, and two special teams failures from being 7-6. Why is it out of the question that he couldn't get 1 of those 2 games against the Bills and Panthers?

Do we have to play this game EVERY year?

And if a couple things don't break our way in the Cardinals game, we lose that one. If Armstrong drops a catch in the Seattle game, we lose that one too.

We could be 2-14. We could be 7-9. Big whoop. Bad is bad and if you are gonna put the close losses into play, you gotta put the close wins into play too. About the only 2 wins that don't count are the ones against the Giants.

[Crazy Levi]

I remember there was talk we were trying to get Cutler, which was a win-now move. I don't know if I remember the Sanchez talk, but if that's the case I'm wrong on that. You're talking the year Sanchez came out we were trying to get him?

Yeah, first we wanted Cutler, then Sanchez...either way it was certainly not the time and we'd have about 2 first round picks in the next 5 years now if they'd have succeeded.

[Epochalypse]

CerratoSnyder did try to get a QB twice: Sanchez and Cutler.

I remember there was talk we were trying to get Cutler, which was a win-now move. I don't know if I remember the Sanchez talk, but if that's the case I'm wrong on that. You're talking the year Sanchez came out we were trying to get him?

[Birdlives]

This whole thing is ridiculous.

1. Zorn took Gibbs' team and went 6-2, when they were still high on Gibbs. Then he proceeded to go 6-18 the rest of the way. He didn't just go downhill, he went into freefall.

2. Swinging gate.

[gatorskin77]

What coaches in the NFL have had three consecutive sub-.500 seasons and were allowed to come back for a fourth try? I am honestly having trouble thinking of any.

I may be wrong but I think Bill Belichick was under .500 his first 3 years with the Browns and he was there 5 or 6 years.

Oh and as for the poll question no it's completely different Shanahan is completely rebuilding the team, who the hell knows what Zorn was trying to accomplish.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

We didn't have a clue with Zorn...We have one now....Rome wasn't built in a day, I think the guy is doing a good job. Yes he's missed on the QB but he's hit on most other things. I have faith he will get it right, hopefully come April.

[hail2skins]

This whole thing is ridiculous.

1. Zorn took Gibbs' team and went 6-2, when they were still high on Gibbs. Then he proceeded to go 6-18 the rest of the way. He didn't just go downhill, he went into freefall.

You do know that Shanny started 2010 with a 4-3 record,,,,,,,and is 7-18 since then. By your logic, that would also be freefall.

[darrelgreenie]

Fact of the matter is, you still haven't answered my question. Are you saying that a QB guru, as Zorn was touted to be, felt that his 15th ranked QB was sufficient enough to be succesful with,

Actually I answered your question directly:

the QB play wasn't the major issue with Zorn's team.In fact the QB play has gotten worse each season Zorn has been gone if you recall Campbell was a top 15 QB by QB rating. (these other metrics have dropped: RZ/3rd down conversion/turnovers)

I highlighted my response since you apparently missed it because you were just too busy getting all touchy and confusing my statement about your lack of objectivity for lack of coherence.

He's wasn't touted as a offensive genius, or creator of great RB's, he was touted as a QB genius, so why didn't he at least try to bring in someone who could operate his WCO more effectively? Even if he brought in someone like Rex, he would've probably had more success than he did with Mr. Jason Campbell (better?).

Actually Zorn was touted as a QB expert not an offensive genius there's a difference.

Campbell improved under Zorn and like I said before I doubt if Zorn saw Campbell as the problem and all the important metric support this fact.

Not only QB rating, but RZ scoring, 3rd down conversions, turnovers.

Bringing in Rex would be a step backwards from Campbell but again it would take objectivity to understand this fact.

As far as your theory about the other positions on the O that required so much attention, here's the draft list for 08' & 09':

I don't need to argue that other positions required attention because anyone that understands football knows that when your bookend OTs are Stephon Heyer and Levi Jones and your center is Casey Rabach there are serious issues on the OL, our second best WR went to another team (ARE) and can't sniff the field, our RB is out of the league (Portis).

So yeah like I was saying there QB was far from the most pressing need for the team.

As far JC's QB ranking and the play since then, fine i'll give you all of that whatever you want to hear or believe,

You don't have to 'give' me anything because its the truth.

And although you have invented a pleasant fiction about Campbell its exactly that a fiction you can't find anything to support your feeling: not QB rating, not DVOA, not RZ QB rating, not 3rd down conversion rate, not turnovers.

Not PFF: http://www.hogshaven.com/2010/1/26/1270571/break-it-down-jason-campbells-2009

Not even ESPN's new QBR which rated Campbell higher in 2009 with a 49.4* then Rex Grossman this year: 42.2. (Campbell this year? 58.1)

*http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6834507/nfl-peyton-manning-top-two-qbr-seasons

So you can scoff at QB rating but DVOA, PFF and ESPN QBR are meaningful QB metrics designed to eliminate garbage time and other irrelevant production stats and they don't support your opinion about Campbell; neither does his RZ production or 3rd downs or low INT% etc.

but you know as well as I do that a 2 yd completion on 1st,2nd,3rd, (and saddly sometimes 4th down), still shows up as 4 for 4 on the stat sheet.

I don't deal with fiction.

[#98QBKiller]

I may be wrong but I think Bill Belichick was under .500 his first 3 years with the Browns and he was there 5 or 6 years.

You are correct, someone brought this to my attention in another thread but it doesn't seem like there are many others.

[CM916]

I'm always hoping for the surprise division title but I'm expecting at least one more godawful season before things turn around at all. I look forward to all the excitement around drafting a rookie QB turning into weekly "worse than Shuler" arguments when he wins four games the first year. Im sure someone will pine after Campbell too before it's all said and done. My only concern is if Danny will tollerate one more crappy year to get our rookie ready for primetime.

[hail2skins]

I'm always hoping for the surprise division title but I'm expecting at least one more godawful season before things turn around at all. I look forward to all the excitement around drafting a rookie QB turning into weekly "worse than Shuler" arguments when he wins four games the first year. Im sure someone will pine after Campbell too before it's all said and done. My only concern is if Danny will tollerate one more crappy year to get our rookie ready for primetime.

I agree with this. The question is how crappy a year will Danny tolerate.......I think he keeps Shanny with 6 wins and a rookie. Anything below that and it gets dicey. And if we go the Flynn route, .500 will have to be achieved....IMO.