Corcaigh Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Are AD's and Coaches saying that kids raising a hand for less than a second is a rampant problem in high school sports, because unless they are then they are not demanding THIS. You keep trying to change the argument by creating this straw man. Apparently the prohibition is on any form of celebration. BTW, how many other refs threw flags on that play? I have no idea, and I'm not sure it's relevant. The norm in most officiating is for officials to have a conference and if necessary pick up a flag if a rule has been incorrectly applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 and you've removed yourself from being taken seriously in this discussion Point taken, but that is how upset I am with this stuff. It is not just this but it is everything in all sports. People in the NFL gets fined for wearing the wrong color socks. MLB saying wearing bright colors while pitching is an unfair advantage. I think the people making theses rules are losing their marbles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 You keep trying to change the argument by creating this straw man. Apparently the prohibition is on any form of celebration. Well if coaches and AD's are calling for any and all forms of celebration to be a penalty...zero tolerance then they all need to be banned from sports, and again I hope that there was no one smiling as he was running in...dang can't have that. Stupid rule, stupid people for making the stupid rule, and stupid refs for enforcing that stupid rule. I have no idea, and I'm not sure it's relevant. The norm in most officiating is for officials to have a conference and if necessary pick up a flag if a rule has been incorrectly applied. Sure it's relevant, because if it truly was unsportsmanlike conduct through celebration then more than one ref should have flagged it. And I can imagine that conference went like this. Head ref: Why did you throw that flag Ed? Ed: Unsportsmanlike conduct in celebrating during the play. Head ref: He raised his hand for a second.... Ed: Yep and that was a celebration? Head ref: Whatever...you sure you want to be known as the jerk who made this call? Ed: That's the rule and we aren't paid to use our brains. Head ref: :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Well if coaches and AD's are calling for any and all forms of celebration to be a penalty...zero tolerance then they all need to be banned from sports, and again I hope that there was no one smiling as he was running in...dang can't have that. Stupid rule, stupid people for making the stupid rule, and stupid refs for enforcing that stupid rule.And I can imagine that conference went like this. Head ref: Why did you throw that flag Ed? Ed: Unsportsmanlike conduct in celebrating during the play. Head ref: He raised his hand for a second.... Ed: Yep and that was a celebration? Head ref: Whatever...you sure you want to be known as the jerk who made this call? Ed: That's the rule and we aren't paid to use our brains. Head ref: :doh: OK. You are reduced to creating ridiculous straw men and making stuff up. I think we're done here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 OK. You are reduced to creating ridiculous straw men and making stuff up. I think we're done here. We've been done for awhile, I was just seeing how long you'd defend this nonsense. :rotflmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I was just seeing how long you'd defend this nonsense. Strangely, you are the one creating straw men arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Some of the rules in sports today really make me not want to watch it anymore. Sad and pathetic what has become of sports in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacase Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I just want to know when and why celebration is now considered a bad thing. I understand taunting, but come on people do we seriously expect kids to score then walk stone faced back to the side line and site down and not be excited about their accomplishment. Football has to be the only sport in which you cannot ever get excited about scoring. Its really very sad. But its the administrators fault Admin 1: He bob, did you see the NFL game last night, Joe Horn scored a TD and pulled out a cell phone! Who does he think he is? Admin 2: Yeah Mike I saw it, we have to make sure that these high school kids never celebrate a TD like that, we can't have these little punks pulling out cell phones whenever they score a TD! Admin 1: Yeah, let's make a rule banning ALL celebration, that way that can't get around the rule like college players use to do when they took off their helmet. They don't need to be happy, they just need to score and go sit their butts down on the bench, this is a no fun zone! Admin 2: Sounds like a plan, we will teach them not to pull out their cell phones after they score! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Strangely, you are the one creating straw men arguments. What is a straw man about saying the rule as written, and as interpreted and as enforced is stupid? And you have yet to show me where the AD's, and coaches are all calling for the raising of a hand to be a penalty. You yourself agreed that it wasn't unsportsmanlike, so why defend it? Refs all the time ignore fouls and penalties, and like someone said, there is holding on EVERY play in football, so by the rules the refs need to call every holding on every play. I mean since we're talking about following the strict letter of the rulebook, right? Or can we please just agree that this is absurd and should have never happened, and that the rules have become more important than the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Asking the official to use his brain is a problem...got it. BTW, I want to know how many refs threw their flags on that play, because unless they all did then it was just the one ref. On most penalties, only one official will throw a flag because we are each looking at parts of the field. I'm not sure which official threw the flag in this case, but it's probably either the back judge or a lineman. To your point about officials using their brains: I think there are a lot of officials that would tell you that we hate some of the rules that are in place and we offer feedback, but the blame shouldn't be on the official, it should be on the state associations. We enforce the rules they create and if we don't, as I believe Corcaigh said, coaches are the first ones to send video tape evidence to the state about us not calling something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I just want to know when and why celebration is now considered a bad thing. I understand taunting, but come on people do we seriously expect kids to score then walk stone faced back to the side line and site down and not be excited about their accomplishment. Football has to be the only sport in which you cannot ever get excited about scoring. Its really very sad. That's exactly what they want. If a celebration is raising a hand, then so is smiling...and since we're going by the strict letter of the rule there will be no more smiling in football! queue the Tom Hanks video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 That's exactly what they want. If a celebration is raising a hand, then so is smiling...and since we're going by the strict letter of the rule there will be no more smiling in football! queue the Tom Hanks video. Smiling is often an involuntary reaction. If you raise your hand involuntarily, you ought to see a doctor. ASF, no one is arguing with the stupidity of the rule...or at least I'm not. I just think the rules should be enforced as written. If it's a bad rule, and I believe this is, then change it. But this wasn't the refs' fault, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 ^If I was the ref I would have swallowed my whistle before calling that a penalty. They could then blame me for not calling something that is not unsportsmanlike conduct, the same way 1,000 holding calls per year go uncalled. But, we certainly wouldn't be talking about this absurdity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 So anyone find that rule that says you can't raise your Arm in the air at the 25yd line? I found a rule that says if you raise your arm receiving the ball its called a 'fair catch'. I haven't found a ruling on which arm or arms you're allowed to raise if you want to catch the ball at the 25yd line. I haven't found a ruling on which arms the defenders can raise when batting at the ball or after a sack. I haven't found a ruling on the QB raising his arm to throw a forward pass at the 25yd line. Is the QB allowed to raise an arm in the air if the receiver catches the ball quietly in the endzone if he threw it from the 25yd line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 ^If I was the ref I would have swallowed my whistle before calling that a penalty. They could then blame me for not calling something that is not unsportsmanlike conduct, the same way 1,000 holding calls per year go uncalled. But, we certainly wouldn't be talking about this absurdity. you really can't compare holding to this. things like this are out in the open. holding usually occurs in a mass of 10 to 12 grown men each weighing 250+ pounds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 you really can't compare holding to this. things like this are out in the open. holding usually occurs in a mass of 10 to 12 grown men each weighing 250+ pounds But I can compare a ref seeing holding and not calling it because he knows it happens on every play, and so he instead swallows his whistle until he sees an incidence of holding that is flagrant. Now, the equivalent would be that the ref swallows the whistle here because this wasn't a flagrant celebration. I don't see how they aren't comparable. Ya'll keep talking about following the rules and refs not using their judgment, yet we all know that when it comes to holding calls refs routinely use their judgment when they do or do not make certain holding calls, so why should it be different here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 But I can compare a ref seeing holding and not calling it because he knows it happens on every play, and so he instead swallows his whistle until he sees an incidence of holding that is flagrant. Now, the equivalent would be that the ref swallows the whistle here because this wasn't a flagrant celebration. I don't see how they aren't comparable. Ya'll keep talking about following the rules and refs not using their judgment, yet we all know that when it comes to holding calls refs routinely use their judgment when they do or do not make certain holding calls, so why should it be different here? refs don't always SEE it. it isn't easy to see in a mass of 3000 lbs of grown men. it is very easy to miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 refs don't always SEE it. it isn't easy to see in a mass of 3000 lbs of grown men. it is very easy to miss. But even if they do, it's not always called a hold if it's not flagrant. I know you coach, and I know you know that. Happens all the time. Both for us and against us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I see an analogy between this and the no tolerance policy for drugs or weapons in schools - where all common sense gets thrown out the window and kids get busted because they have an Advil or a spork in their backpack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 refs don't always SEE it. it isn't easy to see in a mass of 3000 lbs of grown men. it is very easy to miss. So you're saying that refs call EVERY holding they see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 "To the victims go the spoils" used to right wing joke. Not anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Is the QB allowed to raise an arm in the air if the receiver catches the ball quietly in the endzone if he threw it from the 25yd line? That's my question as well, if a lineman jumps with his hands up in the air when he sees that the QB, RB or WR is going to score will that be penalized too? If they want to penalize unsportsmanlike conduct then do so, but this ain't. ---------- Post added December-9th-2011 at 04:34 PM ---------- Is the QB allowed to raise an arm in the air if the receiver catches the ball quietly in the endzone if he threw it from the 25yd line? Exactly my question as well, if a lineman seeing his QB, WR or RB is about to score, jumps with his hands up can that be penalized under this rule? After all it says NO CELEBRATIONS. Refs need to use their brains, and rules like this always cause more harm than they do good. If they want to stop unsportsmanlike conduct then penalize something that is actually unsportsmanlike...but this ain't. Ref should have swallowed his whistle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 But even if they do, it's not always called a hold if it's not flagrant. I know you coach, and I know you know that. Happens all the time. Both for us and against us. actually, it's never happened for my team. So you're saying that refs call EVERY holding they see? no, i'm not. and i'm pretty sure that if holding were emphasized, gone over at the pre-game breakfast, with the coaches, with the captains, etc....it probably would be. by nature, holding calls are subjective. when a league emphasizes a rule like this, it intends to make it not subjective. cut and dry. again, i don't agree with the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 If they want to stop unsportsmanlike conduct then penalize something that is actually unsportsmanlike...but this ain't. It's not a difficult concept. The rules committee is prohibiting any form of celebration. Right or wrong, that's what they are doing. They are not arguing that a kid raising his arm for a second is going to spark a riot, no matter how many straw men you try to construct. Arguing why you think they are prohibiting harmless celebration is about as pointless as arguing why the numbers on a shirt are the size they are. The celebration prohibition is a rule. It's a dumb rule. But until they change the rule the ref doesn't get to make **** up if he is going to officiate in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 no, i'm not. and i'm pretty sure that if holding were emphasized, gone over at the pre-game breakfast, with the coaches, with the captains, etc....it probably would be. by nature, holding calls are subjective. when a league emphasizes a rule like this, it intends to make it not subjective. cut and dry. again, i don't agree with the rule. It still isn't cut and dry, otherwise there wouldn't be such a disagreement about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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