ESPN Boston: Celebration penalty costs title

[Henry]

This is from the statement from the league regarding the call:

At the start of the season the MIAA and football officials took comprehensive measures to ensure that everyone understood this rule. In fact, the officials at this game reminded the captains and coaches that there would be zero tolerance for any unsportsmanlike actions. Likewise, this message was communicated in the pre-playoff game administrative meeting, as well as the MIAA’s Super Bowl Breakfast with coaches and captains.

Them's the rules. If you don't like the rules, complain about them before the game, not after.

[Teller]

They are there to use their judgment.

Write the rules well enough to minimize judgment calls as much as possible. If the rule says "no celebration" (which is idiotic, btw) then that's what the rule is. It's like having two feet down in the NFL. There's no gray area. They're down or they're not.

[Corcaigh]

They are there to use their judgment.

That's an oversimplification. Usually there are interpretations briefings before each season at which attendance is mandatory for officials and coaches so that everyone is on the same page. And as celebration is not a new topic in high school football I'd be surprised if this topic hasn't been covered before.

Again, the opposing AD's reaction shows the standard he expects to be applied. And if that is consistent with the local rules briefings, whether you like the standard or not really isn't material here.

[Henry]

Oh I know what it is born out of, but the problem with trying to "nip it in the bud" is that they make more technicalities to the point now that refs have to be physics majors to determine if a ball was caught. Refs need to use their brains, and any rule that is zero tolerance is stupid because it requires zero brains. If league officials cannot tell the difference between a hand raised and turning around backstepping into the endzone then they need not be around sports.

By these stupid rules, this touchdown would have been negated.

I would have embedded but it has a pop up tag that violates TOS.

(Video)

ASF, in the pros we see TDs negated all the time when, for example, a return man makes an awesome play and some idiot away from the entire thing blocks someone in the back. Nothing to do with the play at all. No effect on the outcome.

But it's a penalty. No TD. Ten yards from the spot of the foul.

Happens ALL the time in the pros.

This isn't any different.

[AsburySkinsFan]

This is from the statement from the league regarding the call:

Them's the rules. If you don't like the rules, complain about them before the game, not after.

Raising your hand is now unsportsmanlike.... Maybe he was just sure?!

---------- Post added December-8th-2011 at 09:50 AM ----------

Ash, in the pros we see TDs negated all the time when, for example, a return man makes an awesome play and some idiot away from the entire thing blocks someone in the back. Nothing to do with the play at all. No effect on the outcome.

But it's a penalty. No TD. Ten yards from the spot of the foul.

Happens ALL the time in the pros.

This isn't any different.

See the video I linked...it is different. Because it wasn't taunting, it isn't unsportsmanlike, it wasn't going to injure another player.

Oh and it is AsBurySkinsFan.

[Major Harris]

By these stupid rules, this touchdown would have been negated. And Santana is no showboat.

i can't watch youtube at work...but like henry said, we don't know all of it either. see, i assumed this was the end of the game. 6 minutes left. what was the penalty? 15 yards from the spot,....so now they have 1st down at the opponents 35 yard line. lots of football left.

are you seriously saying santana isn't a showboater? dude catches a 4 yard pass, spins the ball on the ground and signals first down every friggin time. i get sick of him and hall.

[AsburySkinsFan]

That's an oversimplification. Usually there are interpretations briefings before each season at which attendance is mandatory for officials and coaches so that everyone is on the same page. And as celebration is not a new topic in high school football I'd be surprised if this topic hasn't been covered before.

When it comes to determining what a "celebration" is then yeah judgment is entirely applicable. What if he smiled too big while he was running, he's celebrating...flag that unsportsmanlike behavior!

Again, the opposing AD's reaction shows the standard he expects to be applied. And if that is consistent with the local rules briefings, whether you like the standard or not really isn't material here.

Whether I like or others like the standard has every bearing because this nonsense needs to stop.

[Corcaigh]

Oh please that happens every game. How many times during tight NCAA games do you hear the announcers saying, "The refs are just letting them play this out" when they are referring to ticky-tack calls that could be made but aren't because the refs deplore the idea that they might be the one's to determine the outcome of a game on a ticky-tack call. Well that's just what this was, and the ref's job is to use his/her JUDGMENT when making a call.

Oh come on. Announcers now as a source of rules interpretation? Officiating which isn't consistent with the interpretation guidelines is not officials using good judgement.

[AsburySkinsFan]

i can't watch youtube at work...but like henry said, we don't know all of it either. see, i assumed this was the end of the game. 6 minutes left. what was the penalty? 15 yards from the spot,....so now they have 1st down at the opponents 35 yard line. lots of football left.

The refs took points off the board because a hand went over the head, doesn't matter that there were 6 minutes left, we all know that every point counts in football. And to say, well they had plenty of time left to recover from that bad call is nonsense, refs shouldn't be making bad calls because there is still time on the clock.

As for the video I linked, it was Santana Moss running an 80 yard punt return against Detroit and 5 yards out he pumps his fist in the air twice...call that back for unsportsmanlike behavior.

are you seriously saying santana isn't a showboater? dude catches a 4 yard pass, spins the ball on the ground and signals first down every friggin time. i get sick of him and hall.

Showboaters are Deion Sanders, Chad Johnson, T.O. et al, Santana is downright subdued next to them.

---------- Post added December-8th-2011 at 10:02 AM ----------

Oh come on. Announcers now as a source of rules interpretation?

That doesn't even make sense, all the announcers are saying is what they see, and what they see are refs who are letting the players play when it is obvious that ticky tack fouls could be called, refereeing is all about judgment, not brain-dead lawyer balling.

Officiating which isn't consistent with the interpretation guidelines is not officials using good judgement.

Interpretation requires judgment, and an official who sees a kid raise his hand over his head and throws a flag has used bad judgment. Are you seriously going to suggest that if the runner with the ball does everything right (doesn't smile too big, doesn't raise his arm even for half a second) and a lineman gets excited and puts his arm up in celebration of the touchdown before the runner crosses the endzone, you're going to tell me that a flag should be thrown? Seriously, ya'll want to drain every ounce of enjoyment from sports.

[Corcaigh]

When it comes to determining what a "celebration" is then yeah judgment is entirely applicable. What if he smiled too big while he was running, he's celebrating...flag that unsportsmanlike behavior!

Now you are just inventing straw men.

And the nonsense will stop when they revise the rules and interpretations. As you keep focusing on the terrible official and that he should have used judgement, I'll repeat ... blaming one official for doing what the ADs and the rest of the league wants is completely misguided. Fix the rule and interpretation. Given that bad behavior and taunting is a serious problem in high school football in some areas, do not ask a lone official to determine how long a kid had his hand in the air, or whether it could have been considered taunting or provocative given the situation in the game. The ADs and coaches absolutely do not want officials to use judgement. They want the game enforced according to the rules and official interpretations. Note again the comment by the opposing AD.

[Teller]

As for the video I linked, it was Santana Moss running an 80 yard punt return against Detroit and 5 yards out he pumps his fist in the air twice...call that back for unsportsmanlike behavior.

Well, as long as you're comparing different sets of rules, does 'Tana only need one foot in bounds when he makes a catch? And can the Skins get some damned rouges for gosh sakes? The rules aren't the same. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Well, as long as you're comparing different sets of rules, does 'Tana only need one foot in bounds when he makes a catch? And can the Skins get some damned rouges for gosh sakes? The rules aren't the same. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

Was Santana being unsportsmanlike when he pumped his fist after running 80 yards? That's the issue.

[Major Harris]

oopsie double post

[Teller]

Was Santana being unsportsmanlike when he pumped his fist after running 80 yards? That's the issue.

It's absolutely not the issue, unless they're playing under the same rules; and they're not.

[Major Harris]

The refs took points off the board because a hand went over the head, doesn't matter that there were 6 minutes left, we all know that every point counts in football. And to say, well they had plenty of time left to recover from that bad call is nonsense, refs shouldn't be making bad calls because there is still time on the clock.

As for the video I linked, it was Santana Moss running an 80 yard punt return against Detroit and 5 yards out he pumps his fist in the air twice...call that back for unsportsmanlike behavior.

you do realize that there are MANY football rules that are different in the pros than in high school / college? you can cover the tight end in high school. you can't report a lineman as eligible in high school.

Showboaters are Deion Sanders, Chad Johnson, T.O. et al, Santana is downright subdued next to them.

so now you're either deion sanders or barry sanders?

Seriously, ya'll want to drain every ounce of enjoyment from sports.

save the drama dude.

[KDawg]

In the end, these are still kids.

And that gesture, from a seemingly excited kid, done in innocence and a sense of utter triumph and happiness is to be expected.

The referee making that call is a poor decision, regardless of the rule.

Now, that kid has to deal with being the reason his team lost the game for the rest of his life. Because a ref doesn't like a kid's arm in the air. It's absurd.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It's absolutely not the issue, unless they're playing under the same rules; and they're not.

It TOTALLY is the issue...because if raising a hand over the head is bad sportsmanship for one then it is the same for all, this doesn't have anything to do with the rules, the rules are there to create guidelines for ideas that exist about the game. Is raising your hand over your head as you are running in for a touchdown unsportsmanlike?

No

/thread

---------- Post added December-8th-2011 at 10:15 AM ----------

you do realize that there are MANY football rules that are different in the pros than in high school / college? you can cover the tight end in high school. you can't report a lineman as eligible in high school.

Was it or was it not unsportsmanlike? You don't seriously need a rulebook to determine that do you?

[KDawg]

you can cover the tight end in high school.

If you cover him in NYS, he's not an eligible receiver... Not that our officials would notice

you can't report a lineman as eligible in high school.

We did several times last year

[Henry]

Raising your hand is now unsportsmanlike.... Maybe he was just sure?!

It's celebratory behavior. And the rule is no celebratory or unsportsmanlike conduct. And the rule is to be applied with zero-tolerance. And if they sat the coaches and captains down before the game to remind them that the rule is zero-tolerance, there's really no excuse.

Even with the limited information we've been given it's pretty darn clear.

If it's a dumb rule that's another issue. Get it changed. Maybe this incident will be the catalyst for that change (personally I think it makes more sense to enforce the rule on the kickoff in a case like that ... if you are going to have a no-tolerance, no celebrating rule which I think is a little much). But within the framework of the rules for that particular game, the refs did what they were supposed to do, and that kid should have known better than to put his arm up.

Oh and it is AsBurySkinsFan.

Yeah yeah yeah. I already fixed it.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It's celebratory behavior. And the rule is no celebratory or unsportsmanlike conduct. And the rule is to be applied with zero-tolerance. And if they sat the coaches and captains down before the game to remind them that the rule is zero-tolerance, there's really no excuse.

Smiling is celebratory behavior.

Yeah yeah yeah. I already fixed it.

Just a pet peeve, I know why it happens though.

[KDawg]

It's celebratory behavior. And the rule is no celebratory or unsportsmanlike conduct. And the rule is to be applied with zero-tolerance. And if they sat the coaches and captains down before the game to remind them that the rule is zero-tolerance, there's really no excuse

Here's the problem with rules in athletics, though, Henry. I can guarantee you. 100%. Completely... That rule wasn't called consistently for the entire season. Guaranteed. It happens every where. Do I know this for a fact as in I have evidence? No. So I suppose I can't be 100% sure. So I'll say 99.9% sure.

[Major Harris]

It TOTALLY is the issue...because if raising a hand over the head is bad sportsmanship for one then it is the same for all, this doesn't have anything to do with the rules, the rules are there to create guidelines for ideas that exist about the game. Is raising your hand over your head as you are running in for a touchdown unsportsmanlike?

No

/thread

---------- Post added December-8th-2011 at 10:15 AM ----------

Was it or was it not unsportsmanlike? You don't seriously need a rulebook to determine that do you?

yes, in this league, it is a rule apparently.

i've already said i don't agree with the RULE. but you're way overboard with your rationale and bashing of the official.

---------- Post added December-8th-2011 at 10:26 AM ----------

If you cover him in NYS, he's not an eligible receiver... Not that our officials would notice

i know. we do it all the time by lining a WR up on the TE side. creates an unbalanced line that is really hard to deal with.

We did several times last year

well, maybe your league has modified that rule from the nfhs rule book. just like this league has done.

[Teller]

It TOTALLY is the issue...because if raising a hand over the head is bad sportsmanship for one then it is the same for all, this doesn't have anything to do with the rules, the rules are there to create guidelines for ideas that exist about the game. Is raising your hand over your head as you are running in for a touchdown unsportsmanlike?

No

/thread

Rules aren't guidelines. They're rules. Going back to my earlier example, if a guy gets one foot down in the endzone in the NFL, it's not a catch. It doesn't matter whether that grab would win them the Super Bowl or not. ("You cost my team the Super Bowl over one toe???") I'd hate to play Monopoly with you. "The rule says I owe you big for landing on your Boardwalk, with a hotel, but since that would bankrupt me, I'm going to consider that a guideline, and pay you $50."

I agree with you that the RULE should be changed; 100%. But until then, it should be enforced as written, and as explained to the coaches. It really is that simple.

And BTW, you can't "/thread" your own post.

[Henry]

Smiling is celebratory behavior.

I don't think you see a lot of kids smiling during a play because they are concentrating on the game (and they wear helmets ). I suspect in the right circumstances, with a zero tolerance policy in place, a kid could get flagged for smiling at an opposing player during a play.

[Henry]

Here's the problem with rules in athletics, though, Henry. I can guarantee you. 100%. Completely... That rule wasn't called consistently for the entire season. Guaranteed. It happens every where. Do I know this for a fact as in I have evidence? No. So I suppose I can't be 100% sure. So I'll say 99.9% sure.

You could be right. And if the coach of the losing team had said 'this happens all the time and nobody cares' or something I'd be more sympathetic. Even so, we all know players get away with holding all the time in football but when a player gets called for it, and he clearly held, we don't complain that it shouldn't have been called.

What I'm saying is if all we hear is 'it's a dumb rule and I don't like it,' well ... get the rule changed or play something else.