that "roughing the passer" on vick was teh worst call i have EVER seen(Do your venting here. MET).

[Tarpon75]

First off, it doesn't matter if you played football or not. I did as well. But that's irrelevant to this discussion.

The bottom line is, that play happened on the very first series of the game. Plus it was the right call. So all the Eagles did was benefit from a stupid penalty by Orakpo. Yeah, we were down 7-0 early. But the Eagles only scored 13 more points after that. We scored 13 pts in the game. So, like I've said all along, GROSSMAN'S 4 picks are what cost us the game.

You are wrong on 2 accounts.The play happened on the Eagle's 2nd series and Orakpo's hit should not have been a penalty.You are right that Grossman cost the team dearly but the momentum went with the Eagles at that point.

[mbws]

I know skinzwiz, these people are just making excuses for getting outplayed. You know they say its crazy to conversate with yourself...but everyone else seems to be acting crazier so...

Conversate is not a word.

[Redskin4ever]

My wife said at the time "that we should put dresses on the players rather than uniforms."

I'm proud of her; she is leaning the game.

My wife said that she doesn't want to ever hear Vick complain about not getting calls. She's not a big football fan, but even she knew that was a ridiculous call.

[Rocky21]

Originally Posted by Westbrook36

The pocket is not defined by the tackle to the tackle as announcers normally say. He was 20 yards behind the line of scrimmage. Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't make it any less true.

And just because you say it and you feel it in your heart doesn't make it true either. As posted by edelbeb:

From the NFL Rule Digest:

"Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion.

Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line)."

Definition of Pocket Area: "Applies from a point two yards outside of either offensive tackle and includes the tight end if he drops off the line of scrimmage to pass protect. Pocket extends longitudinally behind the line back to offensive team’s own end line." (That's the "normal" tackle position, not where the tackle happens to be at any one moment.)

Care to admit that you're flat out DEAD wrong here?

Westbrook pwned.

[Dan T.]

And it wasn't intentional grounding because he was outside the pocket. You must have been at the game. One of the many reasons why I rarely go to the games. You don't really know what's going on there.

Bubble Screen wrong again:

From the NFL Rule Digest:

"Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion.

Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line)."

Definition of Pocket Area: "Applies from a point two yards outside of either offensive tackle and includes the tight end if he drops off the line of scrimmage to pass protect. Pocket extends longitudinally behind the line back to offensive team’s own end line." Vick was far behind the line of scrimmage (He was on the 1/2 yard line. The LOS was about the 18 if I recall correctly). He was inside of the pocket area as defined by the NFL. .

The roughing the passer call was borderline at best. And for a referee in that situation, if it's a borderline call, game management dictates that you don't bail out a team and reward them for crappy play. Let the teams decide the outcome of the game. Bad officiating all the way around on that play.

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

The game has been wussified almost beyond recognition, but any time a player (in the eyes of the ref) "launches" or makes any contact to the head area it is going to get a flag. This one was a killer because the ball was getting thrown out of bounds anyhow.

[Tarpon75]

The game has been wussified almost beyond recognition, but any time a player (in the eyes of the ref) "launches" or makes any contact to the head area it is going to get a flag. This one was a killer because the ball was getting thrown out of bounds anyhow.

No, they don't always call it,evidence much worse hit on Helu later in game. His helmet was ripped off his head and he was hit while defenseless laying on the ground with his helmet off.No penalty called.

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

No, they don't always call it,evidence much worse hit on Helu later in game. His helmet was ripped off his head and he was hit while defenseless laying on the ground with his helmet off.No penalty called.

Helu is running the ball and not a (QB WR). In the context of the thread, referring to roughing the passer, not general personal foul. In that play he was although was hit on the ground, not a launch or helmet to helmet leading tackle.

That could have been called a personal foul, unesessary roughness.

[sportjunkie07]

First off, it doesn't matter if you played football or not. I did as well. But that's irrelevant to this discussion.

The bottom line is, that play happened on the very first series of the game. Plus it was the right call. So all the Eagles did was benefit from a stupid penalty by Orakpo. Yeah, we were down 7-0 early. But the Eagles only scored 13 more points after that. We scored 13 pts in the game. So, like I've said all along, GROSSMAN'S 4 picks are what cost us the game.

while i disagree that the play was the right call, id agree that it is not the reason we lost the game.

like it or not, youve got to play above the opposition and the ref's fallibility in order to win in the nfl. blaming a loss on the ref's is the most lame excuse ever.

[Tarpon75]

Helu is running the ball and not a (QB WR). In the context of the thread, referring to roughing the passer, not general personal foul. In that play he was although was hit on the ground, not a launch or helmet to helmet leading tackle.

That could have been called a personal foul, unesessary roughness.

To quote your earlier post," the game had been wussified and that any time a player launches or makes any contact to the head area". That is a pretty general statement within a specific thread, I responded in kind. The problem I have with the Helu play was that his helmet was wrestled off his head and while laying on the ground was hit by a 2nd Eagle player.He was in a much more prone position than Vick was.Granted Vick is a qb and and they are going to protect the qb but any player's health should be important.I don't disagree with you that a personal foul should have been called.Don't want to argue but that sequence early in the game seemed to start a downward spiral,so I am a little touchy about it.Still believe that in a worst case scenario offsetting fouls should have been called.

[mcsluggo]

does the existence of a "pocket" disappear once there was a fumble? (simlar to there being no interference on an tipped ball)

[Popeman38]

does the existence of a "pocket" disappear once there was a fumble? (simlar to there being no interference on an tipped ball)

If the pocket disappears because he is so far back, the QB is no longer a QB and has to be considered a runner. Therefore, there is no "helmet to helmet" rule nor rules protecting him. Any means necessary is applied to taking down a runner.

Also, the NFL can not have it both ways. DL lose a sack when they tackle a QB 20 yds behind the line after a bad snap, as it is considered a "fumble recovery" and the DL is taking down a runner recovering a fumble (the very reason Kerrigan lost a sack against Romo sits to pee in Dallas, as explained by the NFL). Using this logic, Vick was not a QB, and should not be afforded the "protection" rules applied to a QB in the pocket after a good snap. He is either a runner (no protection), or a QB (intentional grounding, sack applicable, go back and award Kerrigan 1.5 sacks for Dallas/StLouis). Otherwise, you need to install a voting booth where a DL can stop on his way to the QB to be informed whether or not he is allowed to actually touch the QB on this play.

[mcsluggo]

i found this:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/oct/16/roughing-the-passer-on-redskins-was-tough-call/

while looking for a clip of the play... (according to this, the call was for a late hit, and NOT for a helmet to helmet... which is even MORE bogus)

does anyone have a link to a clip?

[SWO-tarious]

This call was pathetic and it is just one in a long line of BS calls made this year to prevent any QB's from getting their uniforms dirty. Anyone want to know why most offenses are putting up huge numbers (except ours, of course)? Scare the defenses, leave the QB's standing and there you have it.

Remember baseball's steroid era? Chicks dig the longball, right? Well, everybody digs offense in football. It plays well on TV and for the casual fan it's more exciting live. With the way things are going, my personal favorite style of football, ground game and defense, is starting to become extinct.

[MumboSauce]

This isn't some emotional, because I'm a skins fan thing...it was a bad call. period.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

This isn't some emotional, because I'm a skins fan thing...it was a bad call. period.

You may not like the rule, but I think it was called correctly.

[SkinsFTW]

With the way things are going, my personal favorite style of football, ground game and defense, is starting to become extinct.

Starting? Those days have been over for a long time now, the recent idiotic rules aren't going to help. They may as well put flags on QB's and now receivers.

[Enzo]

he wasnt behind the line of scrimmage on a broken play, how the hell can it be intentional grounding? he could throw it anywhere he wanted. Then the hit to the head (presumably that didnt happen? jeezuz).

He was between the tackles & watch the play again you actually see Orakpo push Vick away with his hands. BTW, the intentional grounding rules are stupid also. It should be a penalty no matter where the QB is if he throws the ball away to avoid a sack.

[gbear]

I justfound it telling that we haven't heard of any fines assessed. I thought these plays were always fined now...unless apon review the NFL doesn't like the call. I think that may be as close as the Skins will ever get to an admission of error and apology.

Now we have to move on. We had other chances to win the game. Yes, it completely changed the momentum and amounted to a 9 point swing...but that was so last week. Next up Carolina.

[skinzwiz]

Conversate is not a word.

Wow shocking one of you caught that...it was part of the jk:)

[GoDeep81]

One helmet hit another helmet. Automatic penalty

That's the thing, if he takes off running the ball it's not a penalty if your hat makes contact with his.. And with a QB like Vick, that's exactly what you'd expect him to do once he scoops up an errant snap.. The NFL has gone in the toilet with all these specialized rules that have different meaning according to what a player is doing and when.. That series most certainly shaped the tone for the 1st part of the game..

[skins67]

I think this call changed the game completely.

[RandyHolt]

Rock got to him first, lowering vicks head. Rak there can't even raise his arms since he may hit Vick in the head. Is he supposed to run with his arms down, head up, to not draw a penalty? How can he aim with his shoulder, as rock is changing where Vick is; that would risk a neck injury, if Vicks torso moves over, Rak is leading with his head. The league is over thinking it. Back to leather helmuts.

Should have been grounding damnit, I dont care if he was barely out of the pocket or not.

[In The Barrel]

Skins would have won the game if it wasn't for that 1 bad call.

[GoDeep81]

And who's brilliant idea was it, that if a QB steps out of the pocket, they can then throw the ball away to avoid being sacked?? Dumbest damn rule I've ever heard.. Why even have a grounding rule if all ya need to do is take 3 steps to the right or left and just wing the thing 30 yards off the sideline to avoid loosing 20 yards on a sack?? Just crazy stupid imo..