Two things about our quarterbacks, including one point of worry on Rex.

[s0crates]

Well HDF561, I have a couple points for you that I think you are missing:

1) Beck's interception was not a bad throw. Stallworth slowed down on the route. As I said before, and as others said, you are supposed to throw a jump ball when you have a one-on-one situation like that.

2) Grossman's TD was not that spectacular. Moss was wide open due to a blown coverage.

Of course, there is much more to base our evaluation on then just these two throws, but since you keep posting things about those two plays that are at best half-true, I thought I would correct you.

[jivelikenice]

Well HDF561, I have a couple points for you that I think you are missing:

1) Beck's interception was not a bad throw. Stallworth slowed down on the route. As I said before, and as others said, you are supposed to throw a jump ball when you have a one-on-one situation like that.

2) Grossman's TD was not that spectacular. Moss was wide open due to a blown coverage.

Of course, there is much more to base our evaluation on then just these two throws, but since you keep posting things about those two plays that are at best half-true, I thought I would correct you.

Are there any photo stills or videos showing Stallworth on the route? I'm not saying you're wrong at all, but just would like to see what beck saw on that play.

[s0crates]

Are there any photo stills or videos showing Stallworth on the route? I'm not saying you're wrong at all, but just would like to see what beck saw on that play.

The replay at the end of this video shows the route:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Ak03dQ2Cs

What I see is Stallworth in one-on-one coverage. I think Beck made the right read there. Beck probably should have thrown the ball outside a bit more, but Stallworth slows down on his route and fades toward the sideline, instead of continuing down field full speed and making a play on the ball. Not a great throw, but I put at least half of that on the receiver.

[MartinC]

The replay at the end of this video shows the route:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Ak03dQ2Cs

What I see is Stallworth in one-on-one coverage. I think Beck made the right read there. Beck probably should have thrown the ball outside a bit more, but Stallworth slows down on his route and fades toward the sideline, instead of continuing down field full speed and making a play on the ball. Not a great throw, but I put at least half of that on the receiver.

Two things about that route and one about the throw.

First the route. It's a double move route, an out and up. The receiver needs to sell the out with his cut, shoulders and head - get the DB to commit to the out by lowering his hips and THEN stick his foot in and run the up. Stallworth made an half assed effort to sell the out, the DB did not bite and was always on top of Stallworth as he ran the up. It was a bad route by Stallworth and he therefore did not create any separation.

Second point about the route having not got separation when the ball is thrown and the receiver can't make the catch he needs to turn into a DB and try to knock the ball down. Stallworth seemed to slow a little and did not make much of an effort to stop the pick.

All round then not a good play by the receiver.

As to throw first of all it was a good read, Beck identified single coverage and Stallworth was probably the first read on a called 'shot' since it was a double move route. Beck was right then when he saw the single coverage with no deep safety to take the shot. However when the DB has the high position on the route he probably should have thrown back shoulder rather than leading him.

For me though that pick is mainly on Stallworth. Bad route and poor effort at the end.

[HailGreen28]

Two things about that route and one about the throw.

First the route. It's a double move route, an out and up. The receiver needs to sell the out with his cut, shoulders and head - get the DB to commit to the out by lowering his hips and THEN stick his foot in and run the up. Stallworth made an half assed effort to sell the out, the DB did not bite and was always on top of Stallworth as he ran the up. It was a bad route by Stallworth and he therefore did not create any separation.

Second point about the route having not got separation when the ball is thrown and the receiver can't make the catch he needs to turn into a DB and try to knock the ball down. Stallworth seemed to slow a little and did not make much of an effort to stop the pick.

All round then not a good play by the receiver.

As to throw first of all it was a good read, Beck identified single coverage and Stallworth was probably the first read on a called 'shot' since it was a double move route. Beck was right then when he saw the single coverage with no deep safety to take the shot. However when the DB has the high position on the route he probably should have thrown back shoulder rather than leading him.

For me though that pick is mainly on Stallworth. Bad route and poor effort at the end.

It didn't look to me that at any point, Stallworth was getting open. Or going to get open. Don't know why Beck threw it.

[Burgold]

Well HDF561, I have a couple points for you that I think you are missing:

1) Beck's interception was not a bad throw. Stallworth slowed down on the route. As I said before, and as others said, you are supposed to throw a jump ball when you have a one-on-one situation like that.

It wasn't a bad throw, but it was a bad decision.

[s0crates]

It didn't look to me that at any point, Stallworth was getting open. Or going to get open. Don't know why Beck threw it.

I agree Stallworth wasn't getting open.

However, if you watch the play, it looks like Beck had three options:

#1) Stallworth deep (one-on-one up top with no safety help)

#2) TE underneath (triple covered)

#3) Run (try to beat the defensive linemen who is about to pound you).

#4) Throw the ball in the stands (weak sauce).

Stallworth was the obvious choice. He should have realized he was in one-on-one coverage and been ready for the ball, he did not, and he was not. Beck could have thrown it better, but I think it was the right read, and I think Stallworth gets his share of the blame.

It wasn't a bad throw, but it was a bad decision.

I'm not sure if everybody is watching the same play as me.

Beck is standing in the end zone with a defender breathing down his neck for the safety (He was hit as he delivered the ball!). He has his #1 read on the play in one-on-one with no safety help. His underneath guy is triple covered. So he throws the jump-ball up top (to a WR with a height advantage in single coverage). If Stallworth does not slow down he can make a play on the ball. Even as it turned out (worst case scenario INT), it was still as good as a punt, which is much better than a safety, or an interception underneath.

What decision do you think he should have made? Should he have thrown it out of bounds? I can only imagine what Beck's critics would have done with that. I can hear them now, "Admiral checkdown had Stallworth one-on-one and he threw the ball away!" Should he have taken the sack for the safety? Tried to outrun the defender? Should he have thrown back across the field through coverage? Should he have thrown to the underneath guy who was triple covered? No, no, and no.

The only thing to do in that situation is make that throw. It was the right decision.

Now I will admit it was not a perfect throw, as it should have been more to the outside, but I will not agree that it was a bad decision to throw it there.

[MartinC]

It didn't look to me that at any point, Stallworth was getting open. Or going to get open. Don't know why Beck threw it.

It was a called shot and he was told to throw it if he saw man coverage - it's been reported Kyle specifically told him this before that series. The receiver is paid to get separation - he failed.

I do think Beck has to see on the play that the DB is on top though and throw back shoulder.

[Oldfan]

SIP...However, if Grossman starts I presume its Shanny thinking that Grossman hasn't shown his ceiling -- and if so I don't think it would be as strange as the McNabb deal.

It’s obvious to me that both QBs could perform much better with this team and with this scheme than they have in their previous stops. It’s equally obvious that John Beck has more talent and he’s a much better fit in this scheme. So, to me, Beck is a no-brainer for our rebuilding team.

I’m not saying that everyone should see this choice as I do. I’m saying that TO ME Mike’s starting Rex would baffle me as much as the McNabb trade because I have seen in John Beck what Mike and Kyle must have seen in him.

[RWJ]

Beck is much more mobile than Rex.

[Skinsinparadise]

It’s obvious to me that both QBs could perform much better with this team and with this scheme than they have in their previous stops. It’s equally obvious that John Beck has more talent and he’s a much better fit in this scheme. So, to me, Beck is a no-brainer for our rebuilding team.

I’m not saying that everyone should see this choice as I do. I’m saying that TO ME Mike’s starting Rex would baffle me as much as the McNabb trade because I have seen in John Beck what Mike and Kyle must have seen in him.

OK it makes sense to start Beck to me too. Will see.

[darrelgreenie]

It didn't look to me that at any point, Stallworth was getting open. Or going to get open. Don't know why Beck threw it.

I agree that Stallworh was at best almost even with the DB.

But, throwing deep requires a little bit of trust in the WR.

You trust that if 'they're even he (the WR) is leaving (gonna run past the DB)' or they'll be able to high point or make a play on the ball over the DB like Armstrong did in the Packers game.

I agree w/ MartinC that a back shoulder throw is preferable because of Stallworth failure to 'win' on that route.

A back shoulder throw converts that deep route into a deep fade stop.

But, this was a classic case of giving the WR a chance to make a play.

[Hdf561]

HDF561. Please just stop it dude. You are just getting absolutely ridiculous every time you type a response. Your arguments are making absolutely zero sense bro, everyone else sees it except you.

Thats your opinion....Im not insulting anyone and just stating my opinion, just because you disagree doesnt mean its wrong.

[Morneblade]

And unless Beck gets the ball to Austin on time on target, he can't get that YAC. It's not like the ball magically appears in Austin's hands. You're taking credit away just because it fits your argument.

Good QBs place the ball in a spot where the receiver can get YAC more often than not.

This. The one thing I have noticed (outside of Becks stronger arm) is that Beck doesnt hit guys in the numbers much, or make them slow down for a ball. I see that in Rex more, especially on slants or crossing patterns. He gets the ball out in front of the WR so they can be moving at full speed (and as a result, more YAC). I have seen Rex make a few of these, but as often as not WR's have to slow down or the ball is behind them, preventing YAC.

Im not sure where people are getting that Grossman has a strong arm either. Its average but not what I would consider even "good". It wasnt big in college and it isnt here. Beck on the other hand has a very good arm. All you have to do is watch passes to see that. Beck throws darts, Grossman doesnt.

[darrelgreenie]

But, but at training camp the local beat writers tweeted that Beck has a weak arm and his passes flutter.

[HailGreen28]

Appreciate the breakdown of that play, guys. That if Beck's throw had been more outside, Stallworth could have had a nice gain. Not a bad decision on Beck's part.

[Southtown]

I think it was a good decision on Beck's part but the throw was off. (maybe having the ref right next to him threw him off a bit)

My guess is Stallworth slowed because the ball was thrown way to the inside. As soon as he turns his head around, instead of seeing a ball that will land over his left shoulder down the sideline (sort of like Flaco to Evans earlier), he sees a ball thrown 5 yards to the inside of the field. Thats why he slows and tries to get inside.

[Art]

Thats your opinion....Im not insulting anyone and just stating my opinion, just because you disagree doesnt mean its wrong.

Actually, indeed, you can have an opinion, be disagreed with, AND be wrong. As an example, you are flatly, somewhat blindingly wrong about arm strength. That is a fact. You have an opinion contrary to established fact, thus anyone disagreeing would be correct and you wrong. You could ferverently believe the sky is not blue, but grey, if you were color blind, and you'd be wrong, though right from your own perspective. That's happened here. Speaking as Grossman supporter brothers, you are Beck blind. You, and I'm sure the rest of the, "Grossman's arm is better," holdouts, acknowledge and recognize Beck is more mobile. The reason you do is because your mind has been trained all along to believe it, so hearing it and then seeing it jibe. On arm, you're mind has been trained to believe one thing, and your eyes, though the see it, can't process it. You immediately process flawed information that what you're seeing in Beck's quite powerful arm is that Grossman's arm is amazing. You just know he's got a better arm cause everyone and Madden 12 tell you so so seeing Beck rip it means Grossman must be doing it even better.

You are Beck blind on other things too. Suggesting he's not integral in the scoring drives is ludicrous. He's putting people in position to make plays and perform. He's completing more passes for MORE YARDS per catch. His mobility freezes the defense differently than Grossman, providing more running lanes for the running game. His influence is clear and nice.

Now, Rex does put the ball in the end zone. That's cool. He deserves credit for that. And I like Rex. But your negation of Beck is troubling. It's ok to like Rex more than Beck and still realize Beck's playing awfully well in the preseason.

[skinfan2k]

i think Beck is better long term but in reality, he isn't a long term solution at age 30. I just can't expect him to be a starter here for the next 10 years. This next draft we have 3 extra draft picks and I think we are gonna leverage those picks to grab Luck, Barkley or Jones no matter what our record ends up this year. I see what Bruce did this year, gather up multiple picks and use this season to build the entire team and wait for the qb next year while using Rex and Beck as a short term solution until the rookie is ready in 2012

[Oldfan]

Actually, indeed, you can have an opinion, be disagreed with, AND be wrong. As an example, you are flatly, somewhat blindingly wrong about arm strength. That is a fact. You have an opinion contrary to established fact, thus anyone disagreeing would be correct and you wrong. You could ferverently believe the sky is not blue, but grey, if you were color blind, and you'd be wrong, though right from your own perspective. That's happened here. Speaking as Grossman supporter brothers, you are Beck blind. You, and I'm sure the rest of the, "Grossman's arm is better," holdouts, acknowledge and recognize Beck is more mobile. The reason you do is because your mind has been trained all along to believe it, so hearing it and then seeing it jibe. On arm, you're mind has been trained to believe one thing, and your eyes, though the see it, can't process it. You immediately process flawed information that what you're seeing in Beck's quite powerful arm is that Grossman's arm is amazing. You just know he's got a better arm cause everyone and Madden 12 tell you so so seeing Beck rip it means Grossman must be doing it even better.

You are Beck blind on other things too. Suggesting he's not integral in the scoring drives is ludicrous. He's putting people in position to make plays and perform. He's completing more passes for MORE YARDS per catch. His mobility freezes the defense differently than Grossman, providing more running lanes for the running game. His influence is clear and nice.

Now, Rex does put the ball in the end zone. That's cool. He deserves credit for that. And I like Rex. But your negation of Beck is troubling. It's ok to like Rex more than Beck and still realize Beck's playing awfully well in the preseason.

Art, the human mind can be like a bar magnet, rejecting evidence opposed to our cherished opinions on one end while accepting evidence supporting them at the other.

If we don’t realize that tendency, and fight it on own own, anyone trying to convince us of anything is wasting their time.

You are putting a lot of effort into a lost cause.

[Lavarleap56]

Actually, indeed, you can have an opinion, be disagreed with, AND be wrong. As an example, you are flatly, somewhat blindingly wrong about arm strength. That is a fact. You have an opinion contrary to established fact, thus anyone disagreeing would be correct and you wrong. You could ferverently believe the sky is not blue, but grey, if you were color blind, and you'd be wrong, though right from your own perspective. That's happened here. Speaking as Grossman supporter brothers, you are Beck blind. You, and I'm sure the rest of the, "Grossman's arm is better," holdouts, acknowledge and recognize Beck is more mobile. The reason you do is because your mind has been trained all along to believe it, so hearing it and then seeing it jibe. On arm, you're mind has been trained to believe one thing, and your eyes, though the see it, can't process it. You immediately process flawed information that what you're seeing in Beck's quite powerful arm is that Grossman's arm is amazing. You just know he's got a better arm cause everyone and Madden 12 tell you so so seeing Beck rip it means Grossman must be doing it even better.

You are Beck blind on other things too. Suggesting he's not integral in the scoring drives is ludicrous. He's putting people in position to make plays and perform. He's completing more passes for MORE YARDS per catch. His mobility freezes the defense differently than Grossman, providing more running lanes for the running game. His influence is clear and nice.

Now, Rex does put the ball in the end zone. That's cool. He deserves credit for that. And I like Rex. But your negation of Beck is troubling. It's ok to like Rex more than Beck and still realize Beck's playing awfully well in the preseason.

Your wrong Rex has a stronger arm but becks arm is pretty good. Beck has alot of zip short to medium but deep ball havnt seen it yet.

---------- Post added August-27th-2011 at 02:54 PM ----------

i think Beck is better long term but in reality, he isn't a long term solution at age 30. I just can't expect him to be a starter here for the next 10 years. This next draft we have 3 extra draft picks and I think we are gonna leverage those picks to grab Luck, Barkley or Jones no matter what our record ends up this year. I see what Bruce did this year, gather up multiple picks and use this season to build the entire team and wait for the qb next year while using Rex and Beck as a short term solution until the rookie is ready in 2012

Exactly right! Its going to be fun to argue Rex vs Beck right now but ultimately the qb of this team will be chosen in 2012.

[MartinC]

Your wrong Rex has a stronger arm but becks arm is pretty good. Beck has alot of zip short to medium but deep ball havnt seen it yet.

Beck there 3 or 4 deep balls against the Ravens, on the interception the ball was in the air about 60 yards. I think both Rex and Beck have plenty of arm but from what we saw back to back versus the Ravens I give Beck the edge in that area.

[tiger187126]

beck comes out after grossman really doesn't do too much, hits a deep touch pass to AAA on the sideline, bombs one over davis' head (an impressive throw for a "noodle arm"), and then hightower runs for a TD. could this be because after two deep shots the defense backed off the line and got into bad position for a cutback run?

[HigSkin]

IMHO - the QB that comes off the bench is going to be in a better position than the one starting (i.e. pressure of retaining the starting job). Whoever begins the season is not likely the one that finishes it.

You could insert Beck to Grossman, Grossman to Beck if this scenario indeed plays out.

[Lavarleap56]

Beck there 3 or 4 deep balls against the Ravens, on the interception the ball was in the air about 60 yards. I think both Rex and Beck have plenty of arm but from what we saw back to back versus the Ravens I give Beck the edge in that area.

The one to armstrong was nice and it was accurate because Beck got it out in time from a three step drop. Getting the ball out early on the armstrong route allowed him to maintain his mechanics and deliver a accurate ball. Beck has deep ball accuracy issues when he doesn't get it out on time and has to use more "arm" and muscle it out there, that's when the true arm strength comes into question. On the Stallworth play from what I remember it looked like Beck was ready to throw a javelin and not a football. I will rewatch it again but he was definatly putting everything he had into that ball.

---------- Post added August-27th-2011 at 03:07 PM ----------

beck comes out after grossman really doesn't do too much, hits a deep touch pass to AAA on the sideline, bombs one over davis' head (an impressive throw for a "noodle arm"), and then hightower runs for a TD. could this be because after two deep shots the defense backed off the line and got into bad position for a cutback run?

I wouldn't say Beck has a noodle arm at all.